http://www.carstyling.ru/resources/concept/99pontiac_aztek_2.jpg

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/2754226/The-100-ugliest-cars-20-1.html?image=19

http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2005/06/the-pontiac-aztek-and-the-perils-of-design-by-committee.html

- Most Windows laptops are not gaming-oriented, therefore any comparison of Windows laptops to Macbooks using the subset of gaming laptops is a strawman argument.

- Macbooks aren't really gaming laptops either

Something, though, to consider: entry-level Macbook that is 15'': $1800 bare minimum. Entry level Windows laptops run at around $600 give or take (I got mine for $480 thanks to a rebate). Granted, the Macbook in that comparison will easily outperform an entry level Windows laptop, but the point is: Macbooks DO NOT SCALE. You can easily find a matching Windows laptop to the cheapest 15'' Macbook for around $850. Scaling, undeniably, is a huge issue with Macbooks. No matter how much you like them, there is no denying they don't scale down.


Woah, I don't think anyone accused anyone of elitism, rather they were asking for you to put something down on the table that can be empirically measured as to what gives Macbooks the edge of Windows laptops, which you didn't do (just stated basically that you liked them better)

What people in here are saying is: You REALLY need to ask yourself if you need a Macbook, or if you ABSOLUTELY must have a Macbook due to your preference because it is a fact of the matter that you can get much better hardware at a cheaper price than what Macbooks offer, so if that is satisfactory it is pretty much a no-brainer.

Also, any recommendation FOR something must always be taken with a grain of salt due to bias, and empirical evidence should always be offered as to why it is the way to go.


Doesn't look that bad to me :shrug: Honestly, I am not a car guy and in pretty much all matters, function far outweighs fashion for me. The only things I can consider me having bought for "fashion"'s sake is my figurines, not so much fashion as I found them beautiful "art" (for lack of a better word) for my room.

"Empirical measurement" in this context can be a hard thing to get. Sure, some things are clear: for a Mac of a given price, you can get a nonMac with more processing power than the Mac. But then there are things like battery life and weight, where - to my knowledge - Macs tend to do better. I'm not convinced that the "better hardware for price" argument is all way one traffic, to be honest - but I might be wrong as it's been about six months since I've looked around at nonMac notebooks (I was considering buying one then, just for the prospect of saving money, but I didn't really find anything which made me feel like the saving would be worth it.) And then there's the design and the OS, and here's where "empirical measurement" becomes a tricky issue, because (i) whether the aesthetics are appealing and whether the design is "intuitive" is to a large extent subjective, and (ii) the weight one puts on these issues in comparison with the other things (like processing power, etc.) is also largely just a matter of one's preferences.

Maybe in the end it is just "because I like it". But I'm not sure why that's such a bad reason. Should I not be guided by my preferences when purchasing something? Or perhaps the thought is that this somehow suggests that I've got irrational preferences; but I'm not sure how one would make that argument.

How many brands of notebooks use Windows? How many brands of notebooks use OSX?

It's totally about the brand. Apple is the only manufacturer who uses that OS; no competition means they can dictate the price and other factors in whatever way they wish. Their marketing strategy glorifies the brand, and you certainly don't see them talk about the specs on their commercials, only about how Windows is virus-ridden garbage.

Their marketing strategy is so genius, that it makes people believe in their ridiculous claims because it's a lot easier for them to understand than the specs of hundreds of available Windows machines. For example:

- "Mac is better at video/photo editing." If the hardware is the same on both machines it only depends on what software you choose to use, and there are plenty of good programs on Windows.
- "Macs don't get viruses, Windows has a constant debilitating problem with them." Macs do have viruses, but the market is smaller and thus less of a target. Windows has a greater risk since there are ton's of Windows based infections, but even a free antivirus almost totally negates that problem, add smart/safe browsing to that and you're virus-free for life.
- "So simple to use!" Windows 7.


It depends on what OS Bob is used to, but in general getting a non-Mac user to buy a Macbook is only going to hinder them. The price, all the reasons I listed above, and the fact that the programs they want to use may very well not work makes it an unwise suggestion.

Actually, no. Owning one thing and being satisfied with it is a terrible reason to give a recommendation. What else has this person tried? Why this laptop? Why did the others not satisfy her? Recommending something just because you own it and don't hate it is no different than fanboyism.

eh, there's no magical super-material in macbooks that makes them weigh less than Windows laptops, so they do weigh the same (different companies use different materials, but I find Asus, Toshiba and some MSI laptops to generally be light, and HPs to generally be heavy). Battery life depends on many things: Macbooks all use the same amount of cells, which isn't true for Windows laptops (once again: it's a scale thing). And, of course, what you have running will effect battery life. Like above, I find Asus and MSIs to have very good battery life, comparable to a Macbook Pro given the same screen size. Laptops comparable to the Macbook Air (which I wouldn't recommend right now due to aforementioned lack of TRIM support) in terms of battery life can also be found.

The boot time between Windows 7 and OS X is also comparable given same hardware and given same install state (as in: one is not running a bunch of crap and the other isn't)

The differences are completely fashion oriented as far as hardware is concerned between the two. Software is another matter. There are more variables to consider, and the pros both have on this layer can also be argued as cons in a different light. From a strictly functional standpoint, both are on pretty much the same footing here. Both excelling in one niche while falling short of the other in a different one, though even their excels and shortcomings are by a fraction's distance.

As for intuitive design: it is by far mostly which you grew up with first. Everything has a learning curve, and once again, each has their own advantages in ease here too, handling things in different ways.

It's a shame that most Mac OS X users are allergic to the terminal, though, they have such a powerful one now.


Neither is true, however, when dealing with asserting something based on preferences, you should say "For me, it may be, but not necessarily for you, as it is my preference" or something along those lines. Recommendations without reasoning are not completely worthless, but not particularly valuable. That is not to say it isn't a factor, but that it shouldn't be a driving factor.

You must be a difficult person to give a recommendation to. I think you'll find that often people make recommendations to one another just one the basis of what they like. Depending upon how well the parties know eachother's preferences, what's at stake, and so on, then the parties will make the right sorts of moves to get clear on how much weight should be given to the recommendation.

Ok, so maybe one shouldn't tell some random person in the market for a notebook that they absolutely must buy a Mac, because they bought one and really really liked it. But there's all sorts of things in between "Hey, maybe you might want to look at X; I've got one and I really like it" and beating someone over the head with your favourite toy. :shrug:

And this is exactly why bad things become popular. Marketing + people making recommendations when they have no place doing so.

How tiresome those long-winded utterances would get! I think it's generally clear when one is asserting something based on preference. And I do agree that the more reasons one can give, the better, but I don't think I was really denying that. All I wanted to do was suggest that a liking for X is often good enough reason to, at least, put X as an option on the table for someone looking to purchase something of which X is an example. Of course, if one wanted to be more persuasive then one would need to get into the sorts of details you pointed out in the first half of your post (BTW, I apologise for not replying to that; I take all of your points on board, but I didn't want to really get into any arguments over specific details. I'm happy to concede on that front).

But maybe I've overreated - reading the first page of this thread, I kinda got the vibe that people wanted to suggest to the OP that Macs just shouldn't even be one of the options to consider; I just wanted to push back against that, based on my satisfaction with my own Mac(s), and say that Macs are at least worth considering.

I read that "bad" as in scare quotes.

Suppose a friend of mine recommends to me things that he likes, simply because he likes them. Furthermore, suppose that if I choose to act on his recommendations, my preferences are reliably satisfied. Our preferences are in sync, you might say. Now what is so bad about that? I'm not inclined to ask why that X, or not these other Ys and Zs instead, or whatever. I'll just go with the flow, because I know that the recommendation, unspecific and indefinite though its basis may be, is good enough for me.

Of course, sometimes we aren't in such a good position. We might get a recommendation from someone we don't know so well; or someone might recommend something to me, yet I'm not sure how aligned our preferences are. But in such a case I might be willing to act on just a, as it were, bare recommendation, provided that the stakes are sufficiently low. If the stakes are sufficiently high, then of course I would be more inclined to hear more about why that person is making that recommendation.

:shrug: I guess I don't see our common practice of giving recommendations as being so intellectualised; and I guess I also don't see this as having such bad consequences - at least, in the sense that I suspect that most people are pretty good at working out when a recommendation is a good one to guide their actions buy, and for the most part tend to have their preferences satisfied when they do act on recommendations. How "good" or "bad" you think this is, is another matter so far as I'm concerned.

I totally agree - the OP must already have at least some preference or reason he's thinking about buying an MBP

heck, someone in my office bought one just to fool around with a thunderbolt RAID. Since another huge benefit of the MBP is a really high resale value, he was able to sell his 2010 MBP for almost the same price as the brand new 2011 model he purchased. when you figure his tax deductions into the calculation, he actually came out ahead.

He buys a new MBP every year, selling his old one just before the new models are released.

See:


^That's why my sister wants to get one (Note: while this may come off as me saying Macbooks are bad products, that isn't how I meant it. My sister has totally bought into Apple's Marketing scheme, and no matter how much I try to tell her the truth she just rebuts what I say with "but on the commercials they say X")

take a look at this - (sorry there is a brief commercial before it starts)
http://www.viddler.com/player/bb1f5092/

750MB/s is huge for video editing workstations, thunderbolt is not some bs marketing scheme blowing smoke up people's asses

Take a look at your own thread on the matter, I know it isn't just blowing smoke, my post was in response to " I totally agree - the OP must already have at least some preference or reason he's thinking about buying an MBP"

Giving a "reason" for it: marketing. Of course this might not be the case (my original post in this thread was basically me running down all the possibilities for wanting Mac OS X), but the point is: the OP may have a reason, but that doesn't necessarily make it a good reason.

never mention macs on here. Its like saying oblivion is better than morrowind on these boards. osx will always lose to windows and linux os is always better than everything.

just saying. and im a mac user.

also, dont fall prey to apples constant "upgrades." just choose a point and follow it from their with system updates, os updates and so on. If you constantly wait for the next upgrade, you will never get one. Ive had my mbp for about 3 years and i love it. Ive never had any reason to want to upgrade my entire machine since what im using suits my wants.

Yes, you sacrifice compatibility but you should know this when you by a macbook anyway. macs do get viruses as well and they arent perfect. you will have the freezes, the unresponsiveness, and other things but its only a minor annoyance. just try it.