I do not have much time, so I will only speak of Vivec's appearance quickly.

I believe it to have been that Vivec's two sides are his Chimer and Dunmer parts. (Using magic to maintain the Chimer portion.) I don't believe it to be "Daedric" as some others have pointed out in this topic.

I'd post information on it, but every bloody site I try to go to stalls. (Mainly uesp)

Yeah - born rambler, me

Well peole keep saying 'Kill the Heart' - and I think that is what we mostly think of as players - but I do try to set it free in my thoughts rather than destroy it - and I am usually careful to say set it free as it appears that we are not finished with it. Somehow I feel sure that it will come back to haunt us, if it has not done so already, perhaps in another guise.



Taynio I have read as you have

I can see why you might want to leave it there - and your position is reasonable. However I have also noted (as I'm sure you have) that there is a lot of contradictory Lore. Now as I'm not a Dev I can't re-write things, but in a way that leaves me freer to speculate - a favorite passtime that. And what I have been doing is looking for other ways to get some meaning outa that amazing mass of Lore that we have.

The concept that the Statue in the DB cavern is not Sithis, but rather Lorkhan is also speculation. The in-game Lore is that it is Sithis, but there is reason to question this - and proweller has to be included in the list of those who done so. That's new for everyone - it's an eye-opener. And I'm just looking at where that can go, how it might affect other things and what we might glean from it.

As regards Vivec - he's a self-confessed liar so it's tricky trying to base ideas on anything he says. So much of his stuff is so totally obscure and veiled that it just begs to be disected and re-directed. MK only has himself to blame for that. Everyone does it - everyone loves doing it.

In the light of CHIMp you have to wonder to what extent Vivec has obfusticated and altered the beliefs of both mortals and immortals. what are Vivec's secrets? What is Vivec, the God of plots, hiding? What is his true nature?

Although I respect the view you have put forward, I sorta want to take things a bit further and try to get behind the scenes with this.


There is one last thought that occurs from the question of how much becoming a God can change reality in terms of the God's beliefs. Think about the disappearance of the Dwemer. Kagrenac and his followers did not believe in Gods; they created their giant stompy robot God and in that act Kagrenac'ss belief may well have caused the entire race to destroy itself because he would not change his belief that Gods do not exist even though he and his race had become a God - so they all disappeared.

I believe that you can "destroy" the Heart but only it's "Mortal/Visible" part not it's whole concept.

The Heart is a piece of NIRN but it's still in existance even thou the Nerevarine "destroyed" it.

I thought all the Nerevarine did was cut the Tribunal and Dagoth Ur?s connection to the Heart, not destroy it.

Which was what I meant by "destroy", you only destroy it's "Mortal" part, which has it's effect on the Planet.

Dont ask me to elaborate I'm really bad at that. xD

Man...why don't people acknowledge quotation marks anymore?

It's a dying tradition... We're a dying breed. We're the old Kalpa, a old and forgotten Dragon Break.

Should I go on?

lol, i get your point.

I cannot remember what I was wanting to say earlier, as I had to leave quickly. But, part of it was - There's a lot of evidence suggesting Vivec's features are Chimer and Dunmer, considering he is one of the first generation Chimer to turn into Dunmer. So, in that, he never fully transformed, perhaps. Wanting to hold to what he was, and becoming, he decided to show the past and present/future in one. Vivec seems, to me, to be like a historian. He wants to preserve the past. (Though, obviously, factual points disregarded in the history of the Tribunal, Nerevar, etc.)

So, safe to assume, since he was actually one of the few who under-went the actual transformation, that the golden-esque side (Which, accroding to lore, Chimer were virtually indistinguishable to Altmer.) is Chimer, and the ashy part is the new Dunmer. (Supported, speculation-wise, by the colours and features on Vivec.)

As well as, Vivec can take any form he wishes, I believe I read somewhere in a Morrowind book, cannot remember. So, this mix-half-breed thing of his could be a desire to further enstill his "deity" rank. (No mortal could do something like it.)

Note - Sotha Sil and Almalexia mostly/always took on their Chimer form. So I'd assume Vivec would, as well, half-wise.

I'm not trying to piss anyone off here, butt I'm gonna take a risk and speak my mind...

1999, you kinda ruined this thread for me. Everyone has their own opinion, anyone can voice what they want here (in an appropriate level). So don't take what I'm about to say the wrong way, I'm not trying to trash you (I'd send a private messege for that). You have come on as too strong and too pridefull in what you say. You do bring up interesting speculations but you seem to push your point over almost nothing, making it seem like law when it's just hypothesis. ES lore is already confusing, and we don't want to go too far off the original topic and have people believing things they're not sure of or comfortable with. You can start your own thread if you wish to do this. Also, I thought you were rude to a few people in this thread and frankly it ruined this topic for me. I'm gonna just drop it and move on.

For future reference please don't get so defensive with people, we all respect your speculation and that's what this is all about. What is the point of a Forum if nobody cares about what people post? So please just try to remain polite to others, and if the mods think this is innapropriate and lop my head off then oh well. This is my speculation.

Sorry to hear you felt that way Patchy - that was not the intent. I've been using words like if, maybe and speculate (I note that you yourself have used the word speculation too) to indicate the nature of the stuff I write - but I don't want to get too repetitive with that - it's hard to find a balance there. And kind of you to say that about respect ... something we do not always see here.

Well I accept the value of keeping it simple - I often enjoy that style myself when others use it. It can be very effective in getting a point accross. But when the point you are trying to make is not simple and can't usefully be reduced to one-liners or split between different threads or posts, then what do you do?

I don't want to exclude people from taking part and I always thought that although some of what I try to get accross is complicated most anyone can understand it if they want to take the time because the individual parts are simple and very basic. The difficulty here is that lots of stuff in the Lore Forum needs people to have read the books of several games and to link them together in their thinking and that takes time for everyone - yeah, it took me a long time too. But I don't want to exclude that sort of exchange as that would be a loss for people who have got to that stage.

If there is a bit that you or that you see someone else does not get then just ask - I do that a lot and I will be happy to find a link if someone does not beat me to it.



I do agree that what you are saying here is true as you have stated it, and I can see the value of your 'deity-affirmation belief'. What you have written IS what is generally believed, and I am speculating (that word again). What I have begun to wonder is if what we and everyone else has understood and or read is all there is to the matter.

The reason for that is that some of the new stuff that people here have begun to take note of is beginning to show new patterns beneath what was in Morrowind that were not immediately visible to us when we first played that game. I was trying to base my response to the OP and subsequent posts on the links that proweler provided and several current threads here on the Forum.

Thing is that in addition to the new Lore of Oblivion there are what are known as the Obscure Texts at TIL that include new contributions by MK and other Devs that have not been put in-game. There's a lot of reading to do all over the place. Just like in the games

Please do...
I want to hear the seasoned gospel of a veteran.

Oh, well now I feel elightened. I thought the Chimer were former Altmer who were blessed by the daedra to create from themselves, a new race to flock to the lands of the Deep Ones and continue their worship in what was suppose to have been peace. But I was wrong it seems. Very much so...

I'm sure you're aware, I have to ask - Are you being facetious? Again, as you are aware, text is hard to understand as far as the tone is concerned.

Because now I am starting to doubt everything I know, lol.

Yes, it is as far-fetched as it seems - your post makes no actual connection, just because Sotha Sil frequented Artaeum and also is from the home of the Morag Tong does not create a link between the two organizations.

Being Vivec's Anticipation doesn't mean Vivec is Mephala's son (unless you can find me a source that says that Vivec is (which I honestly might have overlooked)). But for a theoretical answer, I'll say Mephala.

Vivec represents duality, that's why he has two colors, it has nothing to do with being daedric.

Sithis and Lorkhan are not the same thing. Lorkhan is a subgradient of Sithis, so the two act pretty much the same, just on different levels. Sithis created a sort of mortality to the Aurbis, Lorkhan re-instituted almost the same sort of mortality through the creation of Mundus. It's very helpful if you try and understand them outside of their personifications before you try and understand their myths.

Maybe because the monkey-prophet Maruhk came from the west???

People connected to the Heart don't die for that very reason, they're connected to the Heart - there is no wondering why. Furthermore, it is assumed that Sotha-Sil and Almalexia could keep coming back as well. That wasn't a part of Chim, that was part of their godhood (just like Dagoth Ur). In terms of their connections to the Heart, the Tribunal all had the same type of connection (Dagoth's was different).
...
No.

No, it wasn't inherent in the previous posts.

As for the house thing:

"Mundus was the House of Sithis."--The Monomyth

As far as I can tell, you're the only one saying "Kill the Heart". It's never said we are going to kill the Heart, just that we're going to remove the enchantments from it.

They didn't become a god, that's the reason the hunk of rock was still there... they weren't necessarily trying to become a 'God', they were trying to escape, to anti-create themselves away...

Also, as far as proweler's comments to your are concerned. You can't expect people to try make sense of very rambling paragraphs where it seems you're trying to figure things out as you write and at the same time to be able to develop a decent reply to those rambling paragraphs. If we can't understand what you're talking about because you don't connect you're thoughts then we can't be expected to discuss them (it's nothing personal, that's just the way it is). So, it's simply courteous to figure out your thoughts and then proceed to write them down, rather than doing both at the same time - that way we don't have to search through your overly-long posts trying to pick out exactly what the point is you're trying to make. It's also a good idea to separate points, as many posts have enough trains of thought in them to make for three or four different threads...

Taynio - wise men say that doubt is the start of wisdom :thumbsup:

Thanks for your useful reply Luargar2 Please accept that my response here and above is speculation - possibly it is only a poor attempt, but it is a sincere one at trying to find where and how Vivec, Lorkhan and Sithis link up among other things.



edit: Sotha-sil did not just visit Arteum - he taught classes there to young students sent from all over the Empire ... remember that book now? Resident teacher is a lot more than a tourist. Soth-sil became a God of the home of the Morag Tong - and it thrived under the protection of th eTribunal - please, you are belitteling and twisting known Lore to make your point here Luargar2. end edit

Add in Fact: As noted in my posts above a major link between Arteum and Sithis is established in Proweler's own links above re the names of Sithis. The names: PSIJJ, PSIJJJ ETC and Arteum, Island of the much-praised cult called the PSYJIICS who call themselves after Sithis and The DB who are Worshippers of Sithis. Basically both are committed to Sithis - and Sithis-worship is rare. It may be that Arteum is merely the source of the beliefs on which the DB base their worship. But it is clear that there are aspects of the DB's history that are only now beginning to surface in discussions here on the Lore Forum - and yet they were there all along. We all missed something major, for years - that statue was staring us in the face all the time ... and now I am asking again why was that statue there? Was the DB hole in the heart statue a go nowhere dead-end Dev mistake? Does it prove or disprove the existance of Sithis? Does the statue indicate that there is something more to be gleaned?

One possible path would be what proweler and others were speculating on in a previous thread - that the statue is in fact a Statue of Lorkhan.
equally possible the missing heart represents:
- Sithis's connection to the Void;
- a dev modeller's error;
- a dev scripter's error;
- Todd decided to make a change and forgot to tell everyone;
- the DB hold genuine Lore from the remnants of Sithitic opposition to the et'Ada that contradicts the given et'Ada's view of things;
- that Sithis and Lorkhan are not separate beings but actually aspects of the same being;
- that the DB got things wrong;
- that the statue is making a guest appearance in a Sithitic Shrine and will be signing autographs later;

We don't really know, but it looks important. And my post explores the potential 'Sithitic genuine Lore side of things'. To go beyond the stuff proweler decided based on the same evidence without really considering the alternatives in his posts.

Re the OP: To decide if Sithis is real it is kinda useful to define what Sithis really is you see.

Cannon was that the et'Ada seem to represent the 'benign' side of things insofar as they appear to be forerunners of or connected to the Nine - as opposed to the Daedric Princes who appear to have some very unsanitory habits - according (especially) to Vivec who tried to supplant them. But please note that Vivec claims to have introduced at least one of them to the unsavoury habits that Prince is now associated with. So it may be that the Daedra were rather more savoury beings before they became associated with mortals, men, mer and especially Vivec. Is the evil that of Daedra or of mortals corrupting them? Or is it that Vivec lied - again?


Since what we have is mainly based on Vivec's word for things, Vivec could be anything (this is Vivec the rogue and liar, right?) he was around before most of his worshipers and he told them what to believe.

But things have changed in a big way now: if you accept the Trial then you have to see Vivec's negative side as being downright narsty. It can no longer be claimed that Vivec is a nice guy really and his Sermons and Lessons were only intended to assist the Nerevarine and make nice politics with the Dunmer - something Loremeisters here have claimed to prove other points. So Vivec may not actually be Mephala's son by birth ... but he sure is in terms of deed. So calling him her son is not too farfetched - that is how things build up in Mythos.

The basic question I was asking is: "So what if Vivec actually is Mephala's son?" You might examing the idea that in the Sermons Mephala could be the netchwife for example? He does like to downplay the Daedric Princes and present them as his victims ... and the purpose of asking that question was to fuel speculation as to the Vivec's nature and his connection to Lorkhan and Lorkhan to Sithis. I don't mind your denying my version - but I did want to know yours - hence that thanks for your responding above.





People have not been writing here that Sotha-sil and Almalexia could or will be coming back in the posts that I have read. If you have a thread where they have been described as coming back then please add a link here. In fact so many people have written them off as dead and gone without being challenged on it that I'm astonished that you now suggest they are not totally dead - but good on yer for that.

As for 'no wondering why' - there is now Luargar2 - somethings were made to be wondered at so people wonder ... happens all the time, including in this thread.

Lost me there

Thanks - that is wonderful, I had missed that bit. Especially as it was Lorkhan that led the spirits of the void there - that's a great connection! So it looks more as though Sithis is the Grey Maybe rather than the Void based on that statement - very appropriate.

I was saying that I have read a lot of posts on this forum that make the assumption that the Heart is being killed and more - no offence but it seems you misinterpreted what was clearly written.

Dwemer Semantics. Akulakhan was claimed to be a God - according to accounts that I have read the Dwemer attempted to duplicate that while denying that they were creating a God - they created a God and denied that it was a God and in this act destroyed/negated themselves as far as I am concerned, :shrug: what else?

I must say I like that last bit - it's true. As explained previously sometimes separating things dilutes their meanings. Some ideas hang as simple one-liners (a lot of the best lies are made that way) but in this case since it all fits together it really has to be read as such at first. Are you sure you are just not saying that it is easier to refute the ideas when they are separated and unsupported?

I remember reading that when someone 'tells his tale' you should always be willing to take the time and listen because such a thing is not done lightly, and you should listen politely and carefully to it all no matter how slow or tortuous. This is just such a thing. Sometimes you have to take the time to read what is written before you comment - no one obliges you to read after all. And when you comment it is usually a good idea to coment on what is actually written and intended rather than what you wish to imagine is written without reading carefully, no matter the complexity of the matter. We all make mistakes, it's unfortunate when we make mistakes because we underestimate the subject matter.

Hell, I'm no Einstein, but there is a lot more to his theory of relativity that E=MC2 ... and I wouldn't tell him to put it into a twenty word paragraph - because that would not be practical. Same with posts here, mine or others. They are what they are. Thanks for the commentary on the content though, that part was useful.

Oh yeah - the OP title is Dark Brotherhood Confusion ...

Sithis is incredibly bizarre. I read on one of the sites that contains just about everything you need to know about TES that he could be almost anything. One of the more interesting ones, in my opinion was the idea that Sithis was what came before Anu and Padomay. O_o

Something like everchanging and neutral... bizarre.

Seeing as that text you read probably stated that he was the soul of Padomay, it's not technically that bizarre.

Ask a High Elf, he'll tell you that Anu came first, and he split into Anuiel and Sithis.

Ask someone else, he'll tell you that Sithis came first, and he split into Anu and Padomay.

There are still two halves of the universe, just with different names for the unfathomable whatever that was there beforehand.

1999,

Hey look man, I'm sorry, I guess I didn't really need to even post that. I'm going through a rough time, I almost got my significant other impregnated and I'm not ready for a kid, it was really stressful for me and I guess I just out of no where "kinda" blew up. It's not in my nature to be rude to people. I'm sorry, I hope we can just throw this aside and continue being the rugged beasts we are.

:foodndrink:

NP patchy - I hope it works out for all of you. Good fortune always comes with expenses - just don't give up.