I recently learned over at the http://www.1bcciv.com/Topic2282459-103-1.aspx that evidently Civilization 5 (which is supposed to be released in a few weeks) is supposed to require a one-time Steam login.

I had bad experiences with Steam from Half Life 2 many years ago, and it culminated a couple years ago when I had a bug in game with a new OS that the Valve tech support said they no longer supported. I made a vow to never give any money to Valve or games that use Steam again.

There has clearly been a 'movement' in recent years for more and more companies to require online validation to activate if not to play new games, e.g., the DRM stuff.

You guys are a pretty estute bunch of gamers, so what do you think?

What is the trend going to be in the future? Is it just inescapable that most games are going to go toward requiring online connections to validate/play them? Are the problematic years when these applications worked poorly and created lots of hassle behind us? Do such applications and the agreements they force us into to use the products consitute breach of fair use laws?


Any risk that TES 5 will involve something like this?

Steam had a bumpy start, but most people swear by it now as it has improved over time and most alternatives aren't even half as good.

Bethesda is giving Steam a try with New Vegas (which will have a one-time Steam login) and Brink (which will be using Steam for its multiplayer). If its well-received it's likely to become a long-term relationship so we'll probably see it with TES V.


When Half Life 2 was released I read up about Steam and quickly decided it wasn't for me. In fact for a while my gaming PC wasn't even hooked up to the internet so it wouldn't have even worked. Since then I've read about further improvements to Steam but I still remained skeptical.

A few days ago I finally took the plunge. So far it seems unobtrusive and it hasn't given me any problems.

Half-Life 2 was the worst Steam launch ever (kinda sad for a flagship franchise). but "direct-delivery" is absolutely the future of games. even the huge stores like wal-mart and best buy have cut their CD/DVD/hard copy media departments in half, and i'd say in 5 more years, there won't be any at all.

just look at all this THQ stuff that's been going around (http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=261330)... THQ is upset at the profit gamestop is making buying and selling used games. (development studios/publishers don't see a dime if you buy a game used)

game evelopers love direct-delivery, because unlike film studios, they don't have a theatrical launch. and unlike record labels, they don't have live performances/tours. if a dev studio wants to make money (and shouldn't they?) direct-delivery is the only way to guarantee it. and i won't even get into the piracy issue...


i hated Steam too, and i made a vow very similar to the OP's...but if you're really fond of gaming, i suggest you make yourself familiar with DRM/Steam/ any other method of direct-delivery, because as far as i can tell, it's the next format in line. "times, they are a changin' "

Well, sounds like if I wanna try out the next few games that are among my old favs (Civ5, TES5, Fallout4) I'd better get used to the idea of Steam.

I guess if the system works unobtrusively that is one thing, but it definitely did not work well in my last expeirence with it.

Add to that, a couple years down the road (I think it was 2006) the Valve tech support would not/could not help me solve an elevator bug in HL2 that happens when the game is played on XP . . . I remain skeptical about the whole thing.

I'm a big purveyor of Steam, and the only reason I started using it was because Empire: Total War used it as it's DRM. And also Bioware was giving KOTOR away for STEAM when I was at PAX.

The new upgrades to the interface really help mesh it all together, it's a nice way to keep track of your games between two systems.

One other thought, direct-delivery is one thing. Requiring installation of verification software and logging on is another. One of my favorite publishes is Matrix Games, small niche publisher, but they seem to do okay. Everyone of their games is DL and/or CD mail delivery.

They don't use anything remotely like Steam or DRM involving installation of apps to run installation/updating of games nor requisite online for playing, etc. They use the old tried-and-true license key system. Evidently the same type of system that Microsoft uses for me to activate their Office package. I bought Office 2010 yesterday by DL, and as usual a license key was the trick to get it running. Now granted, you can run auto-update or whatever they call it to have it automatically notify you or auto-install updates to the package. But as far as I know, you always have the option to choose NOT to run that aspect of Office or for that matter the OS. I think maybe that is the part that some of us don't like: being told that we HAVE to install an app that runs in the background and 'monitors' in order to even be able to play the game. There are other apps that are like that (AVG comes to mind), and frankly they seem to me to lie in a grey area between user-controlled software and malware that takes over your system by degrees. If I recall correctly, uninstalling Steam (and definitely AVG, a supposedly free virus-protection app) was virtually impossible without getting into RegEdit stuff.

A few hoops that we honest consumers must jump through to be able to use the product and help the maker thwart shrinkage is certainly warranted. I draw the line and requiring me to install apps that are anything less than foolhardy easy touninstall, and which are only one of at least two options for using the product. I don't know how Steam works now, but back in the day it definitely had both of those two "no-deal" conditions in my experience.

I could very well imagine this being the case, I wouldn't be surprised if whether we'll see future Bethesda games using Steam will depend on how successful these efforts turn out to be.

Now, I can't say I approve of the decision to use Steam in New Vegas, Steam is certainly not the worst option they could have gone with, it's fairly easy to use, and it does feel like it has improved since when it was first released, I'm willing to use Steam, if I absolutely must, I've played several games on it, I always get the retail version of course but if that requires Steam to play anyway, then I can go with it, but I'd still really rather not use it at all. I don't want to have to install outside programs just to play my games, and activate them through some program with I don't even know how many unnecessary gimmicks attached that I never use and feel no desire to use and which probably only let me do things I can do without it, a program which I'm onlyn using because I need it to play my games, I don't want that. What I WANT to do is just insert the disc, install the game, maybe type in a CD key, and then play it as long as it's installed on my computer and the disc is inserted, that's how things always were before, it was simple, straght forward, yet now suddenly developers aren't content to keep things so simple anymore, no, they have to make things unnecessarily difficult for their customers just because a portion of their potential customer base is playing their games without paying for them, and I must stress may because no one can really prove how many sales any given game has lost to piracy. Just because someone didn't buy the game doesn't mean they're playing a pirated copy, have companies ever onsidered that if a game isn't selling as well as they expected it to, that maybe the culprit ISN'T piracy? That maybe people just don't want to play the game at all? You know, it's possible for that to happen. Or did they ever think of the possibility that not every pirate would pay for the game if they could not pirate it? Maybe if the copy protection turned out to be too hard to crack and they decided not to bother, they'd just go find some other game to download a pirated copy of.

In the end, I'd say that developers need to stop assuming that everyone is a pirate, and that if they just make things harder for everyone, people will buy their games.



If you're right, then I may just have to forever quit gaming by then, because if I can't buy my games in stores and get a box containing at least a disc and a manual, screw it, the creators aren't getting my money.

And it's not like that would stop piracy anyway, in fact, I'd expect it to encourage it, because as long as there's a retail version of games, you at least get something physical that can't be downloaded from the internet, once you take out that, there's really not much reason to pay for the game if you can get a pirated copy for free, aside from wanting to support the creators, perhaps, and the people who would want to do that will still be willing to do it without draconian DRM and other such nonsense in place. You can't ever stop piracy, you can only try to make things harder for pirates, and that's not going to help you make money if the way you do it drives away legitimate customers as well.

I really hope they won't go with Steamworks for TESV, I want the option to install the game without Steam.

I don't mind if some features like achievements etc. are only available on Steam, but I don't want to be forced to play it through Steam.

One time Steam activation sounds better than having to insert the CD every time you play.

I don't really care either way, as long as it's only a 1 time thing and not having to run Steam every time the game starts. Oh, and it better not break mod support.

You only need to activate it on your account once, but you will need to have Steam running to start the game.
But I don't think its gonna break mod support as they promised it wouldn't with New Vegas, and I assume they will do the same for TESV if they go with Steam.

If they just want to allow people to use Steams features with the game, I can agree that allowing the use of Steam but not making it mandatory would be nice, however, if it were used, I think Bethesda would probably want it for DRM among other things, so that would probably not be an option, but as has been said, I'd imagine that whether Bethesda will continue using Steam in the future will probably depend on how well it works for New Vegas and Brink, after all, I'm sure Bethesda would reconsider whether using Steam would be a good idea if it turned out that no one bought their Steam games, but considering that Steam seems to have proven pretty successful for other companies who use it, I find it hard to imagine that happening, and in fact, I doubt they would have considered it at all if it had not proven successful before.



I can only disagree there, I mean, I've been inserting discs into my computer since I first started playing games on my computer, and the same goes for console gaming, though when I was first introduced to that the idea of a console that uses CDs was still something I'd never have thought of, but in the end, inserting objects into a machine is pretty much something I have come to accept as an unavoidable part of gaming, now logging onto things, on the other hand, is not such a thing. The main problem I might have with playing a game from a disc is that I might lose the disc, at the same time, though, when playing games on Steam, I might forget my password and forget the answer to my secret question, and I'd say that is worse than loosing a disc, as if I lose a disc, I just can't play one game, if I can't log into Steam, I can't play any of my Steam games, plus if I lose the disc, chances are it's still in my house and I might stumble upon it at a later time (That sort of thing often happens to me.) if I forget both my login information and the information needed to retrieve it, I may never remember it again.

See I don't like that part. It is IMO, very close to infringing on my rights of fair use. If I buy a product (A), I should not be forced to always use some other product (B ) as a condition of getting my fair use out of product (A). I don't care if Product (B ) is scott-free. If product (B ) is not an ambient part of everyday life, then forcing me to use it constitutes an infringement on my rights of fair use. A one-time login to validate and activate a product is one thing. Constantly requiring Product (B ) to be running is another.

I'm no legal scholar, but it seems to me that the game developer industry is really starting to skate on thin ice here, and not just in terms of undermining their market share with some of us more grumpy and wiley consumers. Eventually, there will be lawsuits. We gamers tend to be a very easygoing happy-go-lucky lot I think, and mainly what we want is to enjoy ourselves via this hobby. But we are also a disproportionately intelligent, proactive, and problem-solving oriented community. Eventually, a groundswell of this anti-anti-piracy software sentiment is going to culminate enough that cases are filed against one of these publishers. It will take years, and cost mucho dollars, and who knows what the result will be.

However, based on the general trend in corporations versus public with respect to digital media, intellectual property, etc. I would suspect that the precedent that will be set will be in favor of consumer rights.

Companies like Bethesda that are starting to 'flirt' with this trajectory should keep that long-term eventuality in mind. At the end of the day, the consumer is King. This stuff is slowly and quietly insinuating itself into our hobby, but that does not mean that some sort of across-the-board transformation will be successfully achieved and one day we'll just wakeup and all games will require online validation/2nd party regulatory applications. There are still plenty of gaming options that do not require this, and there are a lot of us who are questioning the growing trend. I sense a clash in the future.

It is avoidable. My problems with discs are more in the sense of fragility. And DRMs came on discs don't let me to back-up. I think even if you lose your password and forget your secret question, I think if you return with one of your receipts, they will help you.

Let me clarify how steam works:

In my system, Steam starts silently with windows. It automatically logins in background. If I don't have internet connection, it will pop-up a dialog box allowing me to choose offline mode or retry online mod. I click the offline button. It automatically logins. Yes, it can login without internet.

When you get 10+ games on your account, you will realize steam becomes an unavoidable but indeed pretty useful part of your gaming experience.

It doesnt always log in. A while back my internet went out so i was like ill just play Fallout 3 because its offline. But stupid ass steam tried to update and then said you cant do this in offline mode and then shut down. so i couldnt play any of my steam games. so just because it only requires a one time activation doesnt mean u dont need internet to play it. if steam is trying to update and ur offline it will just shut down and you cant play any of ur games.

Steam UI can't know there is an update without internet access in the first place. I don't know what could be it is trying to update. What you experience is supposed to be a bug then. Something they should fix. My first two months were full of that kind of s***. Now everything runs fine. I think they might have fixed the problems. Or I am lucky, as usual.

There have been many updates to the steam since new year.

http://store.steampowered.com/news/?feed=steam_client

"Fixed cloud games attempting to sync when the client is in offline mode"

"Fixed offline mode not working"

"Really fixed offline mode not always working" -3 Mar 2010

In theory it should work. It is working for me. I hope they fix all the issues for everyone.

I've traditionally shied away from digital distribution, but after getting Left 4 Dead 2 last year to play with some friends, I of course had to download the Steam software. This year, through various sales, I've built up a decent library of games on Steam and have become accustomed to it. They actually add value to the service rather than hindering the legitimate customers. I have come to like Valve.

I don't want TES V to require any sort of internet connection to validate or play, ideally it would be exactly the way Morrowind was set up. I enjoy the respect that Bethesda showed us with Morrowind and Oblivion. That being said, if Bethesda were dead set on digital distribution or online activation, Steam is the only solution I would agree with. I will not deal with "Games for Windows Live," and will simply not play the game no matter how good it is. I had a lot of fun with Bioshock but will not play Bioshock II because it is Live "enabled." I won't play Fallout 3 for the same reason. I chose the Steam service, because as I said I needed it for L4D2 and it adds value not hassle for me, but I won't be forced into GFWL or buy any game on Steam which has additional DRM from the publishers.

Steam seems to be one of the very few that have gotten the digital signature formula right. As long as they dump GFWL I'm happy (if you call me prejudiced or unfair, I will call you correct sir)

What about Mods?

If there's modding then I really don't care if it's Steam or not. There's a lot of people in the modding community, and even more people who download them daily, it'd be terrible to just throw that all away because Steam wanted to make some money.

If there's the ability to have mods and make them, then I'm all for it. If not, then I don't like the idea at all. The reason I still play TES games is because of mods.

I believe mods still work even with steam, the only difference I can remember is that to run OBSE you also needed an extra dll file or something. I'm not really sure.

EDIT: Might as well add to this lovely conversation something useful.

IMO, digital distribution is a scourge that will continue to grow. Most have gotten it wrong (yes I'm looking at you GFWL :stare: ) but it is obvious that little to nothing will be able to stop the growing trend. However I doubt that the trend will grow to the level of all games being off-shelved physically, simply because there will always be gamers that don't have internet. Some of us who have the luxury of internet access don't understand how it is possible that other people can't use internet properly.

Internet access is like a hierarchy; at the top you have the those who live in the America's, Europe, Australia and all other regions that have good service, then you have the middle who are people who either cannot afford a strong service or don't have that luxury available, and at the very bottom are people that can't have internet access, due to regional or financial reasons, however, just because they don't have internet access, doesn't mean they have a bottom-line laptop or desktop, and if they have a laptop or desktop, they are a viable segment of customers that need to be addressed, hence the continuity of physical games.

And i completely agree with Selbeth and Anthropoid, they are simply encouraging pirates to get these software, I'm one of these people that feels the real pump of adrenaline opening the game box, carefully reading and re-reading the manual, playing around with awe at the physical freebies i.e. maps, figurines, toys etc.

At it's peak, digital distribution will grow to the extent that you can buy, and may require a one-time activation of a game both physically and digitally. The internetless market cannot be erased and the masses such as myself who yearn for the small items aquirable will continue to buy physical games.

I believe that the realistic ideal is impossible, it would be if some middle-ground was achievable. The problem is what middle-ground? The origin of this digital distribution trend was to create a safe and legal distribution network so that games can be bought and ripping games can stop. Internet seems to be the only real way to get this connection with the whole world, so unless someone is able connect to every place in the world really quickly, dealing with multiple people at one time, digital distribution will have to be a necessary evil to every gamer out there.

Re-EDIT: If you actually read that wall, kudos to you, you deserve a cookie :cookie:

Here is quote from a retired security software CEO



This I think is the part that feels insulting. We honest paying customers are expected to jump through the hoops and suffer the hassle, but then companies like Valve and Ubisoft that are main proponents of this movement do not release sales data, and provide no empirical basis for proving that such invasion of consumer life actually helps them.

I would love to see some proof that this sort of measure actually prevents shrinkage. In the absence of that, I will stick with my conspiratorial viewpoint: this trend has grown because (i) the makers like Valve aggressive market their product, and spin compelling just-so-stories to developers and publishers; (ii) some of their games have done very well; (iii) under 20s who do not think twice about installing invasive software are a growing portion of the market; (iv) publishers and developers, in the absence of solid proof about the impact of piracy on their bottom-line, and the absence of proof about counter-measures, are naturally prone to take the most play-it-safe approach, i.e., to fall for Valve's sales pitch.

If a Bethesda or Firaxis or Ubisoft market expert would be so kind as to compose an essay for me, including citations to market studies or consumer psych studies that presents a compelling argument for why such measures are necessary for them to maintain a reasoanble margin, then I would happily help out. I am a gamer, and I love to promote the good creative, consumer-loving, and sincere portions of the industry. If I really MUST submit to such hassles and infringements to help stamp out piracy, I'll help. But never have I seen any proof or even a sound argument for how these measures are supposed to stamp out piracy. Instead, I hear retired security experts telling me "DRM is a joke."

I will choose to spend my money on the games whose developers/publishers seem to really appreciate my business, not the ones who think they can get away with hassling me with a 'play it safe' measure that may not even be helping their bottom line.

Here is my hypothesis for why some of these publishers may not be meeting their projected sales trends: (i) the boom years of the 1990s are not a realistic projection for the software market of the 2010s; (ii) increasingly games are designed to appeal to broader market segments, most notably younger segments, and segments in developing world contexts, but pricing (at least in the case of the younger target segments in North America markets) does not appear to have been adjusted; (iii) an arms race of graphics enhancements has upped the production costs, while other forces hamper raising prices; (iv) the gaming industry has now grown into adolescence, and much the way the car industry eventually had to cope with growing used car sales, game producers are also now facing competition with distributors like Good Old Games, etc. that sell older games at rock bottom prices; (v) small niche developers can still make games that are viable from a business standpoint, despite the fact that they suffer much less of the overhead of big development houses.

All of these possible factors point to potential flaws in the business models of the publishers/developers who feel it is necessary to take exceptional measures to protect their investment, and in which piracy, or the shrinkage which is the obvious primary motivation for the measures may only partially account for.

In short, there are many possible factors besides piracy that may be infringing on their sales figures.

@ Anthropoid, I agree, for me the biggest reason for me not to get games has been because of DRM

If you buy Oblivion through Steam, you can still use mods perfectly, so I wouldn't worry about that if I were you. Besides, Alien Swarm (a game created by VALVE) was released for free, modding tools included. The whole game was basically made for modding and VALVE encouraged it every inch along the way.

Bethesda already tried Steam with Rogue Warrior.

In any case, there is already a thread about this http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1107858-tesv-and-steam/.