Wanted: List of Infrastructure Mods : III

» Wed Sep 15, 2010 7:21 pm

I've really appreciated BTB's site for his list of mods that he assures us will not conflict and the really great editorial comments and edited plugins he offers - great stuff.

Likewise I found Glubby's guides (where did he go?) to be very helpful and informative. Kudos to Povuholo's list (looking forward to more).

I've also learned a fair amount reading the two Morrowind Overhaul threads by Kingpix - though the MWSGO did give a great list of mods to pursue - not much on if they were edited or notes on getting them to work together. I've not delved into the all important areas of immersion mods and game play mods (combat, stealth, etc), so no comments on those kinds of lists. These above lists are great for the editorialized content and by that I mean not recommending mods just because they claim to cover something and instead recommending them because they do work. They seem a better kind of list.

I wish to see this kind of thing in a list regarding infrastructural mods. I know that Glubby called infrastructure game setting/game tweak mods, but that is not what the word means (or how I intend to use it). Infrastructure is meant here as cities, towns, villages, forts, manors, and camps. maybe roads too.

The existing lists I have, so far, found are lacking in editorial content to match the above adulated lists. The two best are:
http://www.mwmythicmods.com/telesphoros.htm#15
http://www.mwmythicmods.com/SettlementExpansions.htm
Empirical Morrowind has scant info on these kinds of mods.

Delving into looking at the comments on the mods on these two lists and I see comment after comment on many of them by users to stay far away. My reaction is that these lists were constructed to just include mods because they were a town mod. For instance looking at the entry to GS Seyda neen on the Mythic list and it seems cool. Reading the comments on the mod on PES and I wonder if the compiler of the list has it out for me by not taking into consideration the usability of the mod.

I see that trancemaster is composing his own overhaul that will address many town overhauls, but I like choices so I want to learn about infrastructure mods that do work and play well with other mods.

So what I propose is - we collect info on such mods that do work and add comments about them in such a way as to provide the ability to get them to work with other mods and so on.

UESP offers a nice overview of how the areas and infrastructure of Morrowind is classified: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Places#Major_Cities

Spoiler

CITIES

Ald'ruhn — A town to the south west of Red Mountain, dominated by House Redoran. (map)
Balmora — A large town in the West Gash, and Hlaalu council seat. (map)
Sadrith Mora — A large city at the eastern periphery of Zafirbel Bay, and Telvanni Council seat. (map)
Vivec City — The largest city in Vvardenfell, off the southern coast of the island. (map)

TOWNS

Ald Velothi — A tiny Redoran outpost north of Gnisis. (map)
Caldera — A small Imperial mining town in the West Gash. (map)
Dagon Fel — A tiny Imperial fishing village in the far north, populated almost entirely by Nords. (map)
Gnaar Mok — A Hlaalu fishing village on the Bitter Coast. (map)
Gnisis — A small Imperial eggmine town with a notable bazaar and a cranky Telvanni wizard. (map)
Hla Oad — A tiny fishing village and smuggler's stop-off on the Bitter Coast. (map)
Khuul — A small fishing village and Redoran trading post on Vvardenfell's northwest shore. (map)
Maar Gan — A small Redoran outpost and pilgrimage destination. (map)
Molag Mar — A single-canton floating town built for pilgrims by the Temple. (map)
Pelagiad — A former retirement community northwest of Vivec. (map)
Seyda Neen — A small Imperial trading post in the southern Bitter Coast, and the port where the game is begun. (map)
Suran — A medium-sized Hlaalu city northeast of Vivec. (map)
Tel Aruhn — The Telvanni tower town of Archmagister Gothren. (map)
Tel Branora — The Telvanni tower town of Mistress Therana. (map)
Tel Fyr — The isolated home of Divayth Fyr, and site of the Corprusarium. (map)
Tel Mora — The Telvanni Tower town of Telvanni Councilor Mistress Dratha (map)
Tel Vos — A Telvanni tower and home of Master Aryon. (map)
Vos — Companion town to Aryon's tower of Tel Vos. (map)

IMPERIAL FORTS

Buckmoth Legion Fort — An Imperial Legion Fort located near Ald'ruhn. (map)
Ebonheart — A large Imperial city to the west of Vivec. (map)
Fort Darius — A small Imperial eggmine town with a notable bazaar and a cranky Telvanni wizard. (map)
Moonmoth Legion Fort — An Imperial Legion Fort located near Balmora. (map)
Wolverine Hall — An Imperial Fort near Sadrith Mora. (map)

ASHLANDER CAMPS

Major Tribal Camps

Ahemmusa Camp — The campsite of the Ahemmusa Ashlander clan. (map)
Erabenimsun Camp — The campsite of the Erabenimsun Ashlander clan. (map)
Urshilaku Camp — The campsite of the Urshilaku Ashlander clan. (map)
Zainab Camp — The campsite of the Zainab Ashlander clan. (map)

Minor Camps

Aharasaplit Camp — An Ashlander camp on the southern shoreline of the island of Sheogorad, located southwest of Dagon Fel and northwest of Rotheran. (map)
Aidanat Camp — A small Ashlander camp just south of Ald Velothi. (map)
Ashamanu Camp — An Outcast Ashlander camp on an island west of Tel Aruhn. (map)
Bensiberib Camp — A small Ashlander Camp located on the mainland of Azura's Coast between Tel Fyr and Tel Uvirith. (map)
Elanius Camp — Located in the Grazelands Region, not far northeast from Falensarano. (map)
Kaushtababi Camp — A small Ashlander camp south of Molag Mar, just over the mountains. (map)
Mamshar-Disamus Camp — An isolated Ashlander's camp located just east of the ruins of Kogoruhn. (map)
Massahanud Camp — The home of an Ashlander south-west of the Dunmer stronghold Indoranyon. (map)
Mila-Nipal — A simple yurt northeast of the Daedric shrine Dushariran and east of Salothan Ancestral Tomb. (map)
Salit Camp — A medium-sized Outcast Ashlander settlement south-west of Tel Mora. (map)
Shashmanu Camp — A desolate camp east of Ald Velothi and south of Khuul. (map)
Shashurari Camp — A tiny Outcast Ashlander settlement west of Erabenimsun Camp. (map)
Sobitbael Camp — A yurt on Azura's Coast, north of Erabenimsun Camp. (map)
Yakaridan Camp — A yurt south of Tel Vos. (map)

Then also a section on Strongholds and Manors

The scope being mods that alter, add to, or expand the vanilla content. A texture overhaul would not qualify. I'd suggest fixes included only if they also work with mods that fit the scope of the list.

I know from the other Bethesda games that infrastructure mods tend to be the dirtiest mods and the mods that conflict the most. Also that it is easy to lose balance with such a mod as the modder may make a sweet layout for a city but then add alterations to a main quest or something essential that breaks things.

But that is the information I think such a list could provide. Use the UESP list as a guide to then under each section list the mods that are contenders (work) and not list mods that do not work. Then fill the information out about how to get them more compatible.

good idea? bad idea?

» Thu Sep 16, 2010 4:55 am

Reserved - if people start contributing then I will fill this post in with their entries.

This way I'm not just asking for selfish reasons and others can use the info too.

» Thu Sep 16, 2010 12:23 am

So are house mods to be included here too?

This could end up being a great resource. I've put off delving into the infrastructure mods for a LONG time because of the potential conflicts and I don't really know where to begin! I'm afraid that conflicts with grass are extremely likely.

» Wed Sep 15, 2010 9:55 pm

I'd think no on the house mods.

I'd think it more helpful to include mods that change layout, add more than one shop and one house, overhaul the aesthetics without being a texture replacer. Houses will usually have much less conflicts to worry about. I think of the Oblivion projects of Better Cities and Open Cities (classic and reborn) as being the kinds of mod scopes to be considered. Besides a list of good house mods would be another great list to have.

I suspect if people do contribute this would be a slow list to build, but even starting with 3 good options for each of the major towns and cites then others chiming in with known conflicts and other fixes this could be usable fairly quickly. I'd think a few contributions from mod users with 150+ mods and their notes on how they got certain mods to work in that environment would be mega helpful to have collected in one list.

Grass mods are likely going to conflict - I remember that last time I tried to install Morrowind. Then again, with a good core of infrastructure mods that have good recommendations - this makes it easier to consider asking for grass mod patches or edits to the grass mods (or just making them). I mean if I were to think about it - I know grass is cool but wouldn't it be better to not mod grass all the way through a city to minimize conflicts? That way while there is a lack of grass in cities there is also instant compatibility with these kinds of mods and patches can be made for certain cities, etc.

Windows being another issue of concern.

I'm getting the impression that this set of mods is not as popular as other kinds with Morrowind?

» Thu Sep 16, 2010 5:19 am

so you're making a list about different mod options for different areas?

ie:

sedya neen:

Trancmasters, etc etc, GS seyda neen, etc etc etc

Ald-ruhn

mod name, etc etc,

with information about each one and possible conflicts?
in-effect the idea is to make a modular list for MW?

or am i wrong?

» Thu Sep 16, 2010 5:23 am

That wasn't clear?

Yes I'd like to do that, but I need help doing it. I'm NOT going to load and test each mod and attempt to catalog the various issues and benefits of the various mods that each effect the same area.

I do have a life.

But with help or not I'm trying to collect together the best reviewed mods for each town (as per the list in first post - where I outline goals).

So starting with where the game starts Seyda Neen. These seem like the best candidates:
http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/View.php?view=Mods.Detail&id=3546
http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/View.php?view=Mods.Detail&id=5057

Aside from these and the http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/View.php?view=Mods.Detail&id=1608 mod the rest seem to have rather bad reviews with warnings to stay away. For instance Mythic mod list for settlements lists the GS Seyda Neen which is:

A combination of Lonnie's Seyda Neen Docks mod, Seyda Neen Village Expansion mod by Beardo, Seyda Neen Expanded ver 1.0 OFFICIAL by Mystikilla, Dogmeat's Servant Repository, Seyda Neen - Extension Mod v 1.0 by Webspinner and A Quaint Cottage in Seyda Neen by Ravensong.

But it gets horrible reviews and then looking at the reviews for a few (Seyda Neen Expanded ver 1.0 OFFICIAL by Mystikilla & Seyda Neen - Extension Mod v 1.0 by Webspinner) of the included mods and they too have not so shining reviews - so it is built on faulty ground.

On the other hand the http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/View.php?view=Mods.Detail&id=8183 - seems to have some pretty good reviews - it seems mega huge. I recall having it installed a while back, but didn't test thoroughly.

So now that I've narrowed down the Seyda Neen competition (am I missing any?) the next point is to consider compatibility with other types of mods:
Landcape overhauls: Bittercoast variants.
NPC additions: COM, MCA, and Starfire NPCs at the least.
Windows glow and Illuminated Windows compatibility.
More Detailed Places.
What else?

Let's combine info!

» Thu Sep 16, 2010 5:56 am

Been meaning to update that settlement mods list for a while now. There are a few mods that have come out which should go on there.

» Thu Sep 16, 2010 6:27 am

I've found many that are not on the list; however, I wish not to list them just because they claim to be modifying a town.

I don't understand why mods that - according to the comments can cause harm to your save game - should be included on any list except a list of warnings.

» Wed Sep 15, 2010 10:05 pm

I agree, I like all my mods to be as close to perfect as possible

» Wed Sep 15, 2010 8:58 pm

I've found many that are not on the list; however, I wish not to list them just because they claim to be modifying a town.

I don't understand why mods that - according to the comments can cause harm to your save game - should be included on any list except a list of warnings.

I wasn't prepared to test each mod on the list (unlike Telesphoros, who IIRC did try all those mods out in his game) and I always take comments on places like PES with a pinch of salt.

» Wed Sep 15, 2010 6:16 pm

yea, most of the people posting real negative comments on a mod don't know how to install one properly to save their lives. i used some that were panned by a lot of people but work just fine ingame if you read the readme to see what you need to run it right. if you are realyy gonna do this you will need to make a website like telephoros. any list on here gets buried quick. and falls of the bottom eventually. god luck on this.

» Thu Sep 16, 2010 6:07 am

Well the two Seyda Neen mods I listed above had more than just a "thumbs down dude you mod sux" review.

Just read over ten reviews here of http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/View.php?view=Mods.Detail&id=3701 - then tell me I'm overreacting. Oh hey I recognize some of those names ... Psyringe in particular being outspoken about the mod.

The point being that while it is good to have a starter list of town mods - lists that don't review and don't describe compatibility is not really helpful. On the other hand, I also think that anyone who reads the settlement list and says "ohh that one combines 5 mods - me grab" without reading the comments gets what they deserve.

I just downloaded most of what is available in this category over the last week. I am attempting to have at least 2 variants for each settlement. They need cleaning and testing - and I will kick start that aspect of it. But I cannot test all and why should I have to? A website is the work of one person - a forum is the work of many. How many have already seen this thread and thought - "vapor list .. I know a few conflicts but that is for him to figure out."

I'm hoping that after getting the list started and showing the format it will take in linking, describing, reviewing, listing both compatibility and incompatibility will then make it easier to post up and contribute their findings which can then be copied over to the list from their posts. But that may take another week to get started. currently I'm testing new functions with Wrye Bash for better multiple install functionality ... then I have to test a mod ... then get a new clone of Oblivion going ... let's see ... real life in there too.

If after the list is mostly fleshed out and people find it as useful as I think it will be then if someone wants to take over or upload it to their website - then that will be special and warm, but until then it remains a thread.

» Thu Sep 16, 2010 7:00 am

If after the list is mostly fleshed out and people find it as useful as I think it will be then if someone wants to take over or upload it to their website - then that will be special and warm, but until then it remains a thread.

Better still , http://www.webs.com/ ? it's free and simple to do.

» Wed Sep 15, 2010 8:23 pm

As I said (um wrote) - once the list is far more fleshed out then perhaps, but I won't be doing it. As with my other threads people can take and use the info all they want.

I prefer to have the info collected in a forum format to encourage others to contribute to it and watch it grow. That first. A website now is the cart before the horse.

» Wed Sep 15, 2010 10:46 pm

As I said (um wrote) - once the list is far more fleshed out then perhaps, but I won't be doing it. As with my other threads people can take and use the info all they want.

I prefer to have the info collected in a forum format to encourage others to contribute to it and watch it grow. That first. A website now is the cart before the horse.

make a forum?

» Wed Sep 15, 2010 8:58 pm

Just read over ten reviews here of http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/View.php?view=Mods.Detail&id=3701 - then tell me I'm overreacting. Oh hey I recognize some of those names ... Psyringe in particular being outspoken about the mod.

*raises from the ground amidst a cloud of sulphurous smoke and a storm of chocolate bars*

WHOOO HAAAS SUMMMMMONED MEEE?

Erm, well. Nice to see I'm still remembered.

Regarding your project: An updated list of town expansions would be very useful. Actually I'm currently collecting those mods myself - I may get a faster computer soon, and will probably spend a couple of weeks selecting the mods for my new character. I've recently continued sorting my mod archive, but since there are about 15,000 files inside, it'll take a while ...

Anyway, I will probably end up testing several city expansions against each other, and could contribute to your thread. But it'll take a few months until I get there.

Regarding the quality of previous lists: Don't be too harsh on the editors.

GS Seyda Neen is a good example for how difficult it is to assemble such a list. The mod was the "standard" big Seyda Neen expansion for a while, it merged mods which were reasonably popular at their time, it had few _overt_ flaws, it got good reviews (it still has a score of 9.7 at PES), and the modder assured in the readme that all problemds had been solved and that the mod didn't change anything outside of Seyda Neen. Based on this, it would have been an odd decision _not_ to include the mod in a list of recommendations, perhaps with a caveat that it turns Seyda Neen in a rather big town, which may not be desired for some players. To find out the many problems of this mod, someone needs to not only playtest, but actually anolyze the mod. This takes time away from playing, and requires specific tools and knowledge, both of which may not even have been available (or evolved enough) at the time the recommendation lists were assembled.

Regarding the reliability of PES user comments (or reviews/comments in general): Their qualitiy varies wildly, you'll find thorough anolyses as well as false information. The majority of comments isn't terribly useful, but some are - it depends a bit on the poster, Quatloos for example was usually pretty reliable in her reviews. Blind trust in all reviews is obviously a bad idea, as is disregarding all of them - one can always take them as guidelines for a better anolysis.

» Wed Sep 15, 2010 10:45 pm

*raises from the ground amidst a cloud of sulphurous smoke and a storm of chocolate bars*

WHOOO HAAAS SUMMMMMONED MEEE?

Uh hi - I guess that would be me.

Erm, well. Nice to see I'm still remembered.

Regarding your project: An updated list of town expansions would be very useful. Actually I'm currently collecting those mods myself - I may get a faster computer soon, and will probably spend a couple of weeks selecting the mods for my new character. I've recently continued sorting my mod archive, but since there are about 15,000 files inside, it'll take a while ...

Anyway, I will probably end up testing several city expansions against each other, and could contribute to your thread. But it'll take a few months until I get there.

Cool. Might want to read http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1184424-q-cleaning-mods-with-tespcd/.

And no rush - I will be taking my sweet time with this.

Regarding the reliability of PES user comments (or reviews/comments in general): Their qualitiy varies wildly, you'll find thorough anolyses as well as false information. The majority of comments isn't terribly useful, but some are - it depends a bit on the poster, Quatloos for example was usually pretty reliable in her reviews. Blind trust in all reviews is obviously a bad idea, as is disregarding all of them - one can always take them as guidelines for a better anolysis.

Of course reading a review that says "bad mod" is not the same as reading a review that gives details about what is wrong ... like yours did.

And I'm not trying to be harsh it is just that I really liked the mod review lists by Glubby, BTB and so on. This is what I see as a major missing piece of modern morrowind lists.

» Thu Sep 16, 2010 3:38 am

Uh hi - I guess that would be me.

Glad you did it. Got a bit boring in that crypt. Anyway, grab a couple of chocolates, they should've stopped raining down by now.

Cool. Might want to read http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1184424-q-cleaning-mods-with-tespcd/.

Will do.

I really liked the mod review lists by Glubby, BTB and so on. This is what I see as a major missing piece of modern morrowind lists.

Yep, such lists can be extremely helpful

» Thu Sep 16, 2010 2:45 am

Hey, Psyringe :wave: Thanks for the chocolate.

» Wed Sep 15, 2010 7:36 pm

I guess I need a bit of advice before proceeding (slowly).

What sorts of incompatibilities would one need to look for? I don't mean the stray house mod that happens to sit on the edge of a town that is covered by an expansion. I mean the not so obvious problems and issues that arise with common or popular mods.

So far here are the things I know to look for:
Windows glow
Illuminated windows
Environment overhauls (I suppose mostly by Vality and Vurt)
Grass mods

But what about mods like:
LGNPC
Living Cities (does anyone really use this - the warnings seem to indicate it can be a pain)

Then what else.
I see a lot of people complain about the illuminated order mod (never used it) - is it problematic with more than Balmora mods?

What am I not considering?

» Thu Sep 16, 2010 6:43 am

Maybe looking through Faceless_Wanderer's http://gmml.pbworks.com/w/page/5990246/Mod-Conflicts would give some ideas? OK, it's an old list but in a more readable form than mlox's rules.

Maybe Rougetet's http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/View.php?view=Mods.Detail&id=6000 and/or http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/View.php?view=Mods.Detail&id=6446 could be used as well

I think running mods through TESPCD (single vs all check) would be another idea...

» Thu Sep 16, 2010 2:06 am

Psymon: I'd first check for landscape and pathgrid conflicts. Each cell can only have one landscape (i.e. ground mesh) and one pathgrid. So if two mods change the ground mesh in the same cell, then the second mod will overwrite any changes of the first mod. A common example is Balmora Expanded: It flattens the hill east of Balmora to make room for the additional buildings. If any other mod afterwards changes the landscape of that cell (even in a totally different corner of it), then the hill will reappear and several houses will become inaccessible.

Next, I'd check for intersecting houses and other statics (trees growing out of houses, etc.). There's no way to automate this, unfortunately. You can check quickly whether two mods add stuff to the same cell, but you'll have to load the cell either in the CS or in the game to see whether the added stuff intersects.

Next, check objects, and merge conflicts if possible. Sometimes the conflict cannot be solved an you have to decide which mod you want more. (Example: Every object can only had one script in its data. If one mod makes the doors lock at night (by adding a script to them), and another one makes them emit noises from "inside" (by adding a script to them), then you can't combine those mods - well, unless you rewrite the scripts so that one script can perform both tasks.)

Next, check for dialogue conflicts. These can be nasty since they aren't as visible in-game as a wrong landscape or intersecting statics. Be careful when two mods introduce the same non-standard topic. Be even more careful when a mod uses short, generic topics (like "bed", "help", etc.) since these have a high risk of being broken by other topics which use the same words ("my bed", "please help", etc.). Mlox has an "overdial" function that can help with this.

Lastly, although that probably contradicts what I said above - don't overdo it. Trying to get a guaranteed bug-free setup while not having a lot of experience with mods and their inner structure has a good chance of leading to a lot of frustration before the game even starts. Many fixes _can_ be done even after the game has started (landscape can be fixed by making a small patch mod, missing dialogue topics can be fixed by adding them through the console, inaccessible areas can be reached through the console, ruined character stats can be restored with the Enchanted Editor, savegames can be cleaned of problematic data, etc. So if building the game turns into a chore at some point, don't be afraid to just start playing.