[RELz] Powered Power Armor : Fallout 3

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 9:03 am

1. I like this change from a gameplay perspective, but can't really make sense of it from a mechanical realism perspective. What I could do though is have TUpper influence TLower, and vice versa, then it would act like there are two separate cooling lines that share the same radiator or something. You'd end up with more or less the same effect on gameplay.

2/3/4. I had wanted to do a more sophisticated version of TRO that altered your speed based on your carryweight, so that you were always going as fast as you could without overheating. What you've done though is simpler, and accomplishes nearly the same thing. All I would change (and I will probably incorporate this into the next release) would be to make the speed bonus configurable via menu. That way, if you wanted to pack light and haul @%% you could, or if you wanted to carry a ton or so you could lower the speedmult enough that you weren't overheating every few seconds. I'm using a hotkey overloading system with my Energy Pulse Generator that lets you fire and switch explosion types using the same key (tap to fire, hold to cycle through available options, and boy is that script a headache to look at). I could do something similar with TRO, where tapping the hotkey toggled TRO, and holding it adjusted your speed multiplier. It would also still work with Sprint Mod the same way it does now, with the added benefit that you could tune your non-sprinting speed.

I'll need to think a bit about how weightmult is calculated. I think maybe calculating the players carryweight based on their strength base actor value, and subtracting a fraction of that from the total used for calculating weightmult, would probably be the way to go. It would be like the power armor was amplifying its wearer's strength, rather than just adding to it. On the other hand, once you've essentially made carryweight unlimited, maintaining compatibility with backpack mods and other things that increase carryweight becomes obsolete.

5. This seems mostly to be a matter of taste - you either see the temperature numbers changing frequently but in smaller increments, or less frequently but in larger increments. A real physical system would be changing continuously, so personally I think frequent, smaller increments is more realistic, but the way you have it set up its as if the thermocouple is sampling temperature every few seconds.

Regarding PhYoshi's +10 to strength, the only problem I have with this is that most characters are already so close to 10 strength that this will often have little impact. What I've done instead is to directly modify the stats that are normally derived from strength - so things like carryweight and melee damage will increase no matter what your character's stats are.

» Fri Feb 18, 2011 9:05 pm

1. I like this change from a gameplay perspective, but can't really make sense of it from a mechanical realism perspective. What I could do though is have TUpper influence TLower, and vice versa, then it would act like there are two separate cooling lines that share the same radiator or something. You'd end up with more or less the same effect on gameplay.

Yeah, it really is a short term compromise of what I really want.

What I really want to do is have all of the following:
- TUpper influences TLower (in both directions)
- TLower influences TUpper (in both directions)
- Some amount of damage is calculated if TUpper is over a threshold (representing burn damage for example)
- Some amount of damage is calculated if TLower is over a threshold (representing burn damage for example)
- Some amount of damage is calculated if TAverage is over a different, slightly lesser threshold (representing overall being "baked" inside the PA, breathing too hot air, etc)

2/3/4. I had wanted to do a more sophisticated version of TRO that altered your speed based on your carryweight, so that you were always going as fast as you could without overheating. What you've done though is simpler, and accomplishes nearly the same thing.

I considered that, but didn't think it was consistent with the TRO -- that is to say, it isn't an intelligent device that lets you set-it-and-forget-it, always giving you the greatest benfit without the drawback... the idea (in my mind) is just disabling the safety device, and playing it "fast and loose" in a more manual fashion.

All I would change (and I will probably incorporate this into the next release) would be to make the speed bonus configurable via menu. That way, if you wanted to pack light and haul @%% you could, or if you wanted to carry a ton or so you could lower the speedmult enough that you weren't overheating every few seconds. I'm using a hotkey overloading system with my Energy Pulse Generator that lets you fire and switch explosion types using the same key (tap to fire, hold to cycle through available options, and boy is that script a headache to look at). I could do something similar with TRO, where tapping the hotkey toggled TRO, and holding it adjusted your speed multiplier. It would also still work with Sprint Mod the same way it does now, with the added benefit that you could tune your non-sprinting speed.

Doing something like that would be groovy, and a step in the right direction for the mod IMO, even though it is outside of my personal tastes/preferences regarding PA.

I'll need to think a bit about how weightmult is calculated. I think maybe calculating the players carryweight based on their strength base actor value, and subtracting a fraction of that from the total used for calculating weightmult, would probably be the way to go. It would be like the power armor was amplifying its wearer's strength, rather than just adding to it.

Yeah, that is what I'm doing now. Since PA worn by a stronger character wouldn't have to work quite as hard to move the same load, but at the same token the PA still has to move the mass - so even if you're strong enough to carry the load on your own, the PA is still going to be taxed by providing the same general benefits to you while moving the increased total mass.

On the other hand, once you've essentially made carryweight unlimited, maintaining compatibility with backpack mods and other things that increase carryweight becomes obsolete.

I haven't found that in my game --- I still wear a backpack, and have weight problems often... because the only time I'm effectively "unlimited", is when TRO is on... and the more I push that unlimited aspect, the more careful I have to be not to move when I pull out a weapon - and/or to never touch my sprint button - not to mention power drain being an issue (though I restrict myself much more than your mod does by default, and use a drain mult of 2.0 -- so power is a major consideration for me at times).

True neither the backpack nor my carryweight increasing perks help me any when TRO is activated... but they help push out the point before I'm actually turning on TRO just for the purpose of being able to run. Ideal? No, but seems workable thus far. (Is there a way to find the player's current max carry weight? If so, this should be trivial to solve...)

5. This seems mostly to be a matter of taste - you either see the temperature numbers changing frequently but in smaller increments, or less frequently but in larger increments. A real physical system would be changing continuously, so personally I think frequent, smaller increments is more realistic, but the way you have it set up its as if the thermocouple is sampling temperature every few seconds.

Actually it does change it more than that (the incremental math works out differently - and actually NOT in favor of the way that I'm doing it... I'm thinking about long term making two values - one that tracks the actual temperature, and one that tracks the displayed temperature, which would resolve that issue). (I might even be mean and make it so that the temperature gauges have an even more substantial delay in updating -- so the actual temp, which impacts damage done to the player, is updated every frame - while the display temp is based on the average of the (currentframe - 10) through (currentframe - 20))

Anyhow, much of the problem that I have with the default is that I don't feel I have control over making choices about how high I go with the temp -- the display changes so rapidly that sometimes I cannot see a number and register its meaning in my head, before I've already passed that by a good ways. (This is particularly an issue with sprinting, or swinging a supersledge, etc - things that cause big temp changes). In the end, yes it is a matter of taste. I prefer my way not due to any realism issues, but purely for gameplay aspects. I want the TRO to be a "pay attention and make decisions" sort of thing - when it updates too fast, it becomes too twitchy for me.

I liken it to overworking an engine -- when you gun it to redline, the engine temp dosen't peak in just a few seconds... it takes a while. And when you back off, it takes quite a while to cool down. That is ultimately what I want to work towards... one thing at a time.

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 6:42 am

It alarms me that you're writing as if it's a foregone conclusion that I'm going to give you permission to release an alteration based on my mod. What Orfevs did for Real Injuries/Primary Needs wasn't a problem because that mod was pretty much dead - the modder had walked away from it. But I'm still very much active with PPA.

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 8:13 am

It alarms me that you're writing as if it's a foregone conclusion that I'm going to give you permission to release an alteration based on my mod. What Orfevs did for Real Injuries/Primary Needs wasn't a problem because that mod was pretty much dead - the modder had walked away from it. But I'm still very much active with PPA.

Um... what?

To quote myself from the last few posts:

"...what modifications I make to your mods for my own play environment."

"I just wanted to throw some things out to Imp for consideration."

"...I just throw my ideas out there and let him grab or ignore whatever he wants."

The only thing that I can think of in my posts that could be taken as my writing as if I'm planning on releasing anything, is that I mention "long term"... which to be clear, is simply because I have a lot of plans for additional ways that I want to change the PPA mod in the future - again, for my own play environment.

Very few mods that change more than one or two things, do EVERYTHING in a way that I like, or am even willing to accept. My current environment has bits and pieces of well over 200 mods - other than graphics replacers, less than a dozen of them are unaltered. I also have roughly 20 mods that I have built for myself - the only person I have shared any of these with, or ever plan to share any of these with, is my girlfriend... and even then, only the ones that she hears me talking about long enough that she becomes interested in trying them out herself.

To be clear -- I have neither intention nor interest in releasing a modified version of PPA. If I were ever going to release a PPA mod, I would credit you for what I learned from looking at your mod, but I would write an entire mod from the ground up - using none of your code or assets... however doing that, is also something that I have zero interest in doing. Pretty much in the same vein as my needs mod - I learned a few things from IMCN, but in the end did my own complete implementation from the ground up - yet still have no plans to release it.

Again, to be clear -- My only reason for posting my ideas/thoughts here (other than the fact that you had previously shown specific interest in my doing so, as I'd mentioned), is because I know often some of the greatest ideas come from two minds that are creative in different directions, discussing their ideas openly and providing commentary on the other's ideas. Your vison and my vision, of what is or is not appropriate for the Fallout Universe, are extremely different - nothing wrong with that at all.

...so, yeah... please don't be alarmed, as I absolutely have no such interests. The only time that I have ever released a mod that was based in any way on someone elses' mod, was when I was asking a mod author about how I could integrate part of his mod with mine, and he specifically requested that I release my work - and even then I would have declined had it not been something so simple.

No matter what my differences of opinion are, in the end I am a fan of the work that you have done with PPA. My FO3 environment is improved based on what it has brought to the table - kudos and thanks for that.

» Fri Feb 18, 2011 8:56 pm

Actually it does change it more than that (the incremental math works out differently - and actually NOT in favor of the way that I'm doing it... I'm thinking about long term making two values - one that tracks the actual temperature, and one that tracks the displayed temperature, which would resolve that issue). (I might even be mean and make it so that the temperature gauges have an even more substantial delay in updating -- so the actual temp, which impacts damage done to the player, is updated every frame - while the display temp is based on the average of the (currentframe - 10) through (currentframe - 20))

I guess it was mostly the "I might even be mean..." part that made it sound like you were planning to release something. If you did want to release a patch that tweaked parts of this mod I probably wouldn't have a problem with it, though I've been given to frequent updates in the past, which means it would be easier for all concerned to just incorporate the changes that seem like they'd be popular into the main mod. Also, if you (or whoever) wanted to use bits of my code that probably couldn't be done in another way, like the workaround for the jump hangup problem, or the UnderArmor that's wearable under PA, I'd be fine with that as long as you (or whoever) credited me. But I've put a fair amount of work into this mod, and wouldn't want to see someone make a few tweaks and then release a competing mod based largely on my work. I guess I'm put a bit on edge by the fact that you're creating a needs revamp similar to IMCN, but I can't complain much because IMCN is itself an extension based largely on Primary Needs, at least in the way it's structured, and I was sort of stepping on Orfev's toes when I created it.

Anyway, I try to pay attention to people's suggestions, and incorporate them whenever they sound feasible and are something I'd like to use myself. Your suggestions have been great in that respect.

I considered that, but didn't think it was consistent with the TRO -- that is to say, it isn't an intelligent device that lets you set-it-and-forget-it, always giving you the greatest benfit without the drawback... the idea (in my mind) is just disabling the safety device, and playing it "fast and loose" in a more manual fashion.

Ranting and paranoia aside, the massive carryweight boost upgrade I had conceived of was going to be a rarer, more sophisticated, more expensive alternative to TRO. I was tentatively calling it "The Chip" in my release 1.3/1.4 To Do list shown in this thread's original post. But I think that something in between would be more fun to use, where you're still able to push the armor past what's safe for that extra bit of performance. So rather than creating two different upgrades, I think it will be better to focus my effort on making TRO better.

I'm also thinking of reworking the way liquid cooling impacts things. In liquid cooled systems, you're using a heat transfer fluid to bring heat from where its generated to a radiator of some sort where it is cooled with the surrounding air. Unless you're using a refrigerant that changes phase, you can't cool the fluid to anything lower than ambient temperature, so you can't cool the engine or whatever to anything colder than that either. So the way liquid cooling works now, by lowering the steady state temperature by 20 degrees or so across the board, is not really accurate. It would be more realistic if liquid cooling had no impact on temperature at all - I would leave its carryweight and speed boosts out of the speedmult and weightmult calculations entirely. The liquid cooling would just offsets its own heat generation increase.

I will probably remove the jump fall hangup fix, and put it in a separate mod. There are a number of jump height increasing mods out there that would benefit from it, but if they all incorporated it into their code it could possibly cause problems when they showed up in the same load order. Just posting it as a recommended mod would ensure that only one copy of the fix would ever show up.

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 9:50 am

But I think that something in between would be more fun to use, where you're still able to push the armor past what's safe for that extra bit of performance.

TRO (And, indeed, a lot of this mod) seems very much akin to people who "trick out" things, or overclockers, trying to get better performance regardless of the cost. In this vein, I think having more "unsafe" upgrades would be a good thing, especially if the more expensive, less effective, safe varieties stacked with the unsafe ones. In a similar way to how I feel a lot more attached to my weapons once I've started modifying them with WMK, I feel a lot closer to my armour now - but that feeling would be much stronger if there were real choices to be made, as right now there's only really TRO that isn't a straight upgrade. Things like increasing DR by adding extra casing, but at the expensive of that being heavy, and more than the servos were ever designed to push, or adding an "autopilot" mechanism that intelligently guesses what you're trying to do and amplifies it (ingame effect would be doing things faster, effectively) but at the expense of running the risk of damaging your own limbs, alongside the obvious extra servo load.
I'd -love- to see random failures, such as a servo blowing in your leg, which could cause limb damage, armour damage, and make you slower until you've repaired it (I suppose you could just take "repairing it" as any repair work done on the armour - it'd be top priority!), because this t-45d, at least, has been in service for a long time, and gets shot at far more often than I'd like. Same model armour and helmet should be a sealed unit - those look like air tanks on the back, why can't I breath underwater? Why can I -swim-? And seeing as swimming in heavy armour should be impossible, how about adding some ballast to make it possible?
I can get an alarm for when enemies are detected, why not for when we're overheating? If I can detect enemies there must be some sort of IFF system, can I tinker with that at all?

Realise that everything I just said was just thinking aloud, my real point is I'd -love- to see more upgrades with downsides. Things you can look at and say "No, I don't want that", rather than everything just upgrading with a slight power draw increase.

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 8:55 am

I guess it was mostly the "I might even be mean..." part that made it sound like you were planning to release something.

No no, I was referring to being mean to own characters. More than half of my work moddng my own play environment has been to make it harder and more challenging (without simply throwing "more of the same" at my character to deal with).

If you did want to release a patch that tweaked parts of this mod I probably wouldn't have a problem with it, though I've been given to frequent updates in the past, which means it would be easier for all concerned to just incorporate the changes that seem like they'd be popular into the main mod.

Considering I don't even integrate all of your changes into my own version of PPA, there is no way I'm going to put the time into doing so in an ongoing/maintenance basis. (One more reason not to "be concerned")

Also, if you (or whoever) wanted to use bits of my code that probably couldn't be done in another way, like the workaround for the jump hangup problem, or the UnderArmor that's wearable under PA, I'd be fine with that as long as you (or whoever) credited me.

Hunh... I haven't looked at how you've made the underarmor work, but I already know of a way to do it based on work I've done in a different direction (that actually is fairly close to the way you equip PA upgrades). *shrug*

But I've put a fair amount of work into this mod, and wouldn't want to see someone make a few tweaks and then release a competing mod based largely on my work. I guess I'm put a bit on edge by the fact that you're creating a needs revamp similar to IMCN, but I can't complain much because IMCN is itself an extension based largely on Primary Needs, at least in the way it's structured, and I was sort of stepping on Orfev's toes when I created it.

To be clear:

At this point I have no plans to release my needs mod. That may or may not change in the future, but right now I'm working on further tweaking the balance and simply enjoying playing with it, nothing more.
The only reason that my needs mod should put you on edge any more than any OTHER needs mod already out there, is that what I'm doing is the only work other than yours that I'm aware of that deals with different types of nutrients - resulting in "not all food is equal".
While I looked at IMCN under the hood to see how several things were done and draw some inspiration on how to approach a few things, in the end I haven't taken anything from IMCN. Not only none of the code that I used, but not even any of the methods. The only mod that I used as a basis for any of the methods that I used was Simple Needs.
Yes there are some similiarities in ideas between IMCN and what I've done, but only some - and all of those ideas were come across by you and I independantly (ie, I wasn't inspired by IMCN in that regard). Really the only similarities are: Food having different types of nutrients (protien / carbs / vit&min), eating taking time causing penalties in the meantime (something I haven't implemented in mine yet, working on everything else being balanced first), and the idea of nausea (which I'm dealing with differently both in the cause and the effects of). There are many more differences, as my mod has no: cooking, bonuses for high 'levels', changes based on walking or running, differing percentages for different levels (ie, all values for mine range from 300 to -200), circadian, height/weight impacts, health regeneration, perk changes (effects of blood packs with hematophage change, but no actual change to the perk itself), or impact of doctor's healing on needs values.

...so really... don't fret about it.

Anyway, I try to pay attention to people's suggestions, and incorporate them whenever they sound feasible and are something I'd like to use myself. Your suggestions have been great in that respect.

I am glad you think so. I do my best to keep my comments and suggestions to things that I think may actually be useful to you and/or of interest to the community at large. The rest (well, most) of my ideas I just keep to myself.

I'm also thinking of reworking the way liquid cooling impacts things. In liquid cooled systems, you're using a heat transfer fluid to bring heat from where its generated to a radiator of some sort where it is cooled with the surrounding air. Unless you're using a refrigerant that changes phase, you can't cool the fluid to anything lower than ambient temperature, so you can't cool the engine or whatever to anything colder than that either. So the way liquid cooling works now, by lowering the steady state temperature by 20 degrees or so across the board, is not really accurate. It would be more realistic if liquid cooling had no impact on temperature at all - I would leave its carryweight and speed boosts out of the speedmult and weightmult calculations entirely. The liquid cooling would just offsets its own heat generation increase.

That's amusing -- as that is also on my list of "to do's". My plan is to have the LC units provide a slight addition to the general PPA bonuses in general (for an increased power cost, beyond just what the LC would use itself) - representing the fact that the normal thermal regulator allows the armor to run a bit harder since the temp isn't rising as much... and then have the LC slow the normal TRO temp increase, and speeed up the temp decrease - for a bit of an additional power cost (as the LC is overworked by the TRO).

(I've also been toying with the idea of having the LC be capable of being damaged by being run too hot / at too high of a pressure with the TRO, resulting in it suddenly shutting down while in use --- potentially requiring repair to use again at all)

» Fri Feb 18, 2011 9:47 pm

I'm going to be making something called the StimJack rather than a comprehensive chem delivery system - I figure Gribbleschnibit8 has that covered with P.I.M.P. The StimJack will provide continuous health regeneration fueled by stimpacks. The regen rate will be configurable from barely noticeable to something reminiscent of Halo, but the faster the regen, the less efficient it will be. A regen rate of 1 HP/s will probably give you 30 HP per stimpack, but 15 HP/s might only give you 10. It also will not heal crippled limbs, but you'll have the option to keep a configurable number of stimpacks in reserve to use manually. The inefficiency will be a serious downside for anyone using a mod that limits the number of stimpacks. I could also maybe add in a chance of overdose at higher regen rates.

The underarmor adds DR at the expense of extra weight. If I implemented your random breakdown idea, making them more likely at higher carryweights (and possibly making some armors more reliable than others) it would sort of achieve what you're talking about. Since I'll probably be creating power armor subcomponents, like left leg servos, chassis, TX-28 MicroFusion Packs, etc., as part of the destroyable power armor addition, I could maybe force the player to repair with the right subcomponent. The tricky part would be keeping track when a component blows out - you shouldn't suffer from the same damaged component after switching to another set of armor. I'll be trying to think of a way to handle that via the main quest script. Maybe the armor would dissolve itself into its non-damaged sub components as soon as you took it off.

I could also maybe make regenerative overload capacitors explode occasionally after long falls. The player wouldn't be killed necessarily, but it would hurt, and the upgrade would be turned into spare parts. Also, that particular upgrade shouldn't work with T-51b - that armor is hydraulic, not electric.

I've got some sort of a breathing apparatus in the works. I'd like it to be an air tank that recharged itself whenever you were out of water, that you could use on land as well for increased radiation resistance, but there doesn't seem to be a convenient way to determine when the player is submerged. It would be easy enough though to just create some sort of rebreather/carbon dioxide scrubber that allowed you to breathe underwater indefinitely whenever you were wearing a power armor helmet (making sure it was a matching helmet might be more trouble than its worth). If anyone knows how to disable swimming so that the player just walked along the bottom, that would be awesome, but I haven't come across a way to do it.

The enemy detector is dead simple at the moment, just a direct copy of vanilla Fallout 3's Prototype Medic Power Armor. All it does is play that sound file when the player enters combat. If you sneak, you'll notice that it speaks up as soon as your combat indicator turns red. I'm not sure what edits could be made, other than maybe to play the sound whenever a red blip showed up on your compass. There's got to be a way to check for that.

There are a few klaxon type sounds that I could play when you get close to overheating. I thought they weren't fully necessary though, since the damage you take immediately after crossing over the 135 degree point is pretty minimal - as long as you slow down as soon as the the player starts grunting you shouldn't take much damage. But you're right, an audible early warning would make sense.

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 5:08 am

Realise that everything I just said was just thinking aloud, my real point is I'd -love- to see more upgrades with downsides. Things you can look at and say "No, I don't want that", rather than everything just upgrading with a slight power draw increase.

In the interest of sharing ideas for Imp to consider, a few of the ideas that are on my current tinker-table...

additional armor plating: on the plus side it will provide extra protection, on the downside it will decrease speed, agi, melee/unarmed skill, power efficiency, and just be freaking heavy
extra battery pack: will allow for greater than 300kvh of power to be stored in the armor, but at an inefficient usage - so as long as you are over 300, your consumption rate is increased based on how far over 300 you are
alien shield integration: something the aliens on MZ are tinkering with, and that will take a high science and repair skill to "make their prototype work", resulting in a toggleable energy shield that draws a moderate amount of power for being on, and a much larger amount of power when taking damage - but providing a "TalkieToaster's Impervious Power Armor" style DR
a stealth module: toggleable, with a fair amount of power requirement, but resulting in a reduction in carry weight bonuses when in use (it puts servos in low power use to avoid making too much noise), and takes time to warm up (turn it on and have to wait a few seconds before getting any stealth effect - then the stealth effect comes on but at a very low value, slowly building to be a little bit more stable/effective bit by bit, the longer you have it on)

Of course there is also the desire to add the facet of your armor's temp increasing slightly when hit by energy weapons (and even more so when hit by fire based weapons).

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 1:14 am

In the interest of sharing ideas for Imp to consider, a few of the ideas that are on my current tinker-table...

additional armor plating: on the plus side it will provide extra protection, on the downside it will decrease speed, agi, melee/unarmed skill, power efficiency, and just be freaking heavy
extra battery pack: will allow for greater than 300kvh of power to be stored in the armor, but at an inefficient usage - so as long as you are over 300, your consumption rate is increased based on how far over 300 you are
alien shield integration: something the aliens on MZ are tinkering with, and that will take a high science and repair skill to "make their prototype work", resulting in a toggleable energy shield that draws a moderate amount of power for being on, and a much larger amount of power when taking damage - but providing a "TalkieToaster's Impervious Power Armor" style DR
a stealth module: toggleable, with a fair amount of power requirement, but resulting in a reduction in carry weight bonuses when in use (it puts servos in low power use to avoid making too much noise), and takes time to warm up (turn it on and have to wait a few seconds before getting any stealth effect - then the stealth effect comes on but at a very low value, slowly building to be a little bit more stable/effective bit by bit, the longer you have it on)

Of course there is also the desire to add the facet of your armor's temp increasing slightly when hit by energy weapons (and even more so when hit by fire based weapons).

Additional armor plating would be nice, though I'm sort of covering that with the Aramid UnderArmor, which, when combined with fully repaired power armor and a few DR increasing perks will probably put you up to the max DR limit. Maybe it could be used to protect the subcomponents, or, if possible, prevent the PA itself from degrading as quickly? I guess you might also want to opt for armor plating and a more useful set of UnderArmor, like the MediBrace or Insulating versions. This upgrade would also be much better if it made a visible change to the armor. Creating new sets of armor is a bit beyond me at the moment.

I've sort of handled the extra battery pack by making Ceramic Ultracapacitors light enough that you can carry a couple of extras around with you, so this might be more trouble than its worth, especially with all of the other labor intensive additions I'd like to make.

http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=8513 has an MZ style shield generator, but again, I think I'd want to find a more unique use for it than just upping DR (I use FWE much of the time, so power armor DR is already near the max). My mod is also completely compatible with Impervious Power Armor, and I'd rather maintain that compatibility than try to replace or compete with TheTalkieToaster's mod.

Likewise, Schlangster has a mod called http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=11025 that does much of what you suggest regarding stealth.

I really like the energy weapon temp increase, but wouldn't be sure how to implement it without adding an object effect to energy weapons, which would create a conflict with EVE, another mod I really like. I'll be looking into it though.

» Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:06 pm

I just want to let everyone know, since I find this mod so awesome, I'm making icons for it.

Yep.

» Fri Feb 18, 2011 11:21 pm

Additional armor plating would be nice, though I'm sort of covering that with the Aramid UnderArmor, which, when combined with fully repaired power armor and a few DR increasing perks will probably put you up to the max DR limit. Maybe it could be used to protect the subcomponents, or, if possible, prevent the PA itself from degrading as quickly? I guess you might also want to opt for armor plating and a more useful set of UnderArmor, like the MediBrace or Insulating versions. This upgrade would also be much better if it made a visible change to the armor. Creating new sets of armor is a bit beyond me at the moment.

Agreed that new sets of armor would really be the way to go - but that is likewise beyond what I have any plans for (by far).

That having been said, I've never considered "doing this, plus this, plus this, results in the max" to be a real reason to discount other "paths" or "combinations" to reach the same max. Making only one path, with one combination of bonuses and limitations, to get what is substantially "the best" in a certain field... feels too much like encouraging min/maxing to me.

...especially since I want a way to get the DR up without using the aramid underarmor - so that I don't have to forgo other options.

I've sort of handled the extra battery pack by making Ceramic Ultracapacitors light enough that you can carry a couple of extras around with you, so this might be more trouble than its worth, especially with all of the other labor intensive additions I'd like to make.

True, the way default PPA works I guess that would be more or less similar. Not to be critical, but I found how trivially easy it is to come by power in PPA to remind me of how easy it was to heal myself in vanilla FO3. The very first changes I made to PPA for myself, were to make ceramic ultracapacitors FAR more rare in all forms, and to put greater restrictions on recharging things (which I'm still playing with balancing the way I want it).

http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=8513 has an MZ style shield generator, but again, I think I'd want to find a more unique use for it than just upping DR (I use FWE much of the time, so power armor DR is already near the max). My mod is also completely compatible with Impervious Power Armor, and I'd rather maintain that compatibility than try to replace or compete with TheTalkieToaster's mod.

I'm not really seeing why my idea would cause incompatability with TalkieToaster's mod --- my plans specifically include compatability with his mod.

Likewise, Schlangster has a mod called http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=11025 that does much of what you suggest regarding stealth.

Umm... no, it really doesn't.

I use StealthBoyReworked -- I listed four primary aspects that I'm looking at for a stealth mod to PPA, with an assumed (but not specifically stated) fifth one of, "does not require/utilize stealthboys to power itself". Of those five aspects, StealthBoyReworked only shares one in common - toggleability.

I really like the energy weapon temp increase, but wouldn't be sure how to implement it without adding an object effect to energy weapons, which would create a conflict with EVE, another mod I really like. I'll be looking into it though.

I haven't looked into the technical "how" to do it either, so you may be right on the limitation of implementation (I don't use EVE, finding it to be the perfect example for, "I like a few things that that mod does, but dislike the other 75% of it far too much" - so that isn't a limitation for my own tinker table)

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 12:18 am

I just want to let everyone know, since I find this mod so awesome, I'm making icons for it.

Yep.

Yeah, the most recent release has a depleted fission batter icon that matches up with the fission battery icon from http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=9053. The upcoming release will also have unique icons for upgrades, and he's put together the new HUD icons - energy pulse types, and a radiation symbol to indicate when your armor is nuclear powered.

Agreed that new sets of armor would really be the way to go - but that is likewise beyond what I have any plans for (by far).

That having been said, I've never considered "doing this, plus this, plus this, results in the max" to be a real reason to discount other "paths" or "combinations" to reach the same max. Making only one path, with one combination of bonuses and limitations, to get what is substantially "the best" in a certain field... feels too much like encouraging min/maxing to me.

...especially since I want a way to get the DR up without using the aramid underarmor - so that I don't have to forgo other options.

Agreed, it would be good to have options based on what you can afford, whats available to you, and what the various advantages and disadvantages are. Another way to handle the visuals would also be to just make reskins of the armors to reflect the new plating. That's still a lot of work though, and it would mean creating upgraded versions of any armor I wanted to support. I would kind of like to create unique advantages to various sets of armor, so maybe T-51b would be the only one that offered improved plating, but would also be the only armor incompatible with the Regenerative Overload CApacitor due to its use of hydraulics rather than servos.

I'm not really seeing why my idea would cause incompatability with TalkieToaster's mod --- my plans specifically include compatability with his mod.

I'm still not sure what I would want to do with the MZ shield. If I could disable wear for the player's equippped power armor, I would have the energy shield provide very high damage resistance without the speed and agility penalties of heavier plate, but deplete the wearer's energy reserves rapidly when in use.

Umm... no, it really doesn't.

I use StealthBoyReworked -- I listed four primary aspects that I'm looking at for a stealth mod to PPA, with an assumed (but not specifically stated) fifth one of, "does not require/utilize stealthboys to power itself". Of those five aspects, StealthBoyReworked only shares one in common - toggleability.

I guess I sort of glossed over what you were suggesting, and what Stealth Boy Reworked does. My real reason for not wanting to implement stealth upgrades is that stealth is, aside from the need to recharge, the only balancing factor that could make you choose to wear non-power armor. I've received a fair amount of positive feedback regarding those balancing factors, so I'm hesitant to eliminate them.

I haven't looked into the technical "how" to do it either, so you may be right on the limitation of implementation (I don't use EVE, finding it to be the perfect example for, "I like a few things that that mod does, but dislike the other 75% of it far too much" - so that isn't a limitation for my own tinker table)

Thinking about it, you would need to handle this with weapon enchantments, but for my own purposes I think the most straightforward thing to do would be to add my effect code to EVE's existing weapon enchantments, and release the energy weapon impact overheating as an optional EVE compatibility patch. I'm not sure how compatible that would be with overhaul versions of EVE, but it can't be that far off. I'm guessing the weapon stats might change, but the effect code, the only thing I would be editing, would be the same. The patch would then work for overhaul version of EVE, except perhaps for a few unique weapons added by those overhauls.

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 4:37 am

Quick Question: What would you suggest as a Energy Consumption Rate for a Timescale of 1:5 (FWE Default)

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 7:36 am

I'm still not sure what I would want to do with the MZ shield. If I could disable wear for the player's equippped power armor, I would have the energy shield provide very high damage resistance without the speed and agility penalties of heavier plate, but deplete the wearer's energy reserves rapidly when in use.

That is certainly one direction to take it in.

I'm looking at it more as the "Turn it on when you're going into a major fight to help take some of the initial brunt - but be careful to turn it off before long, so you don't end up with unpowered PA during combat"

I guess I sort of glossed over what you were suggesting, and what Stealth Boy Reworked does. My real reason for not wanting to implement stealth upgrades is that stealth is, aside from the need to recharge, the only balancing factor that could make you choose to wear non-power armor. I've received a fair amount of positive feedback regarding those balancing factors, so I'm hesitant to eliminate them.

And I agree with (and actually make even more severe than PPA does) those negatives as a balance factor.

The idea here is not to have an upgrade that "just allows PA to be stealthy" (which frankly, a StealthBoy already does), but rather to have an option to temporarily lose several of the benefits of the PA in favor of a slight stealth benefit with some restrictions and a very high power cost, while still being protected by the heavy armor.

...of course this, like many of my planned changes, rely on power having a bit more value / rarity.

Edit: The thought behind this is also to fit with changes that I'm making to StealthBoyReworked, making the efficiency of its functionality dependant on what armor is being worn (PA vs. Stealth Suit vs. other)

» Fri Feb 18, 2011 8:13 pm

Quick Question: What would you suggest as a Energy Consumption Rate for a Timescale of 1:5 (FWE Default)

There's room for debate on that, but I did all of my development with either Arwen's Tweaks recommended timescale of 4, or FWE's default of 5. I was shooting for about 1 day of operation for un-upgraded power armor. From a product design standpoint, it just seemed like anything shorter would be an unrealistic headache that soldiers wouldn't want to deal with. Would you really want to have to refuel your car every hour? In terms of gameplay at a timescale of 5, that works out to about 3 or 4 hours, and maybe half that with liquid cooling and TRO. Short enough that you need to plan ahead on some missions, but long enough that it isn't interrupting gameplay too often.

Edit: The thought behind this is also to fit with changes that I'm making to StealthBoyReworked, making the efficiency of its functionality dependant on what armor is being worn (PA vs. Stealth Suit vs. other)

This sounds ideal - something that makes stealthboys more convenient, but less effective when used with power armor. So maybe a patch for Stealth Boys Reworked. The stealth boy improvements would apply even if power armor wasn't equipped, and having power armor equipped would reduce their effectiveness. Definitely their duration.

» Fri Feb 18, 2011 11:07 pm

For some reason the PA vaultboy and power readout are not showing up in my HUD. I checked the files are in the right place, but no go. I've got Darn's UI installed, but if I understand correctly, there shouldn't be any conflict. Any suggestions?

Nevermind - sorry, I didn't spot the relevant section in the description.

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 3:18 am

I'm not seeing any effects from equipping the Aramid Underarmor together with Power Armor, other than weight gain. In the inventory it shows no Effects when PA is equipped, but it does when PA not equipped.

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 4:04 am

Someone pointed that out a while back, and it will be fixed in the next release. Leaving biped slots unchecked on an armor makes its DR not count, instead I have to apply the DR bonus via the object effect.

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 5:04 am

Cool - it's a brilliant mod, by the way!

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 1:35 am

The idea of trying to sneak in power armor just blows me away. Even if you visually hide with a stealth field, it's still an unmistakably loud CLANK CLONK. Maybe a supermutant would ignore it, but surely any human would notice. A stealth field is VISUAL... sound still exists.

» Fri Feb 18, 2011 9:18 pm

That just means sneaking is less effective, not impossible. I don't know if it's possible to affect npc's detection chances based on sound, but I think it makes sense that you would TRY to sneak using power armor - also that a stealth field would be a purchasable upgrade (hint hint) - it's just that you'll be less effective than someone wearing, say, pyjamas!

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 4:11 am

This mod dislike my game... or myself. Everytime I level up (actually from 17 to 18) I get a CTD. What it does at lv ups? If it matter, it's the first level up with PPA that I have a Power armor in my inventory - the T-51b.

Already tried to level up outside the PA, same CTD.

OBS: bellow goes my complete load order, but even with only Fallout 3.esm and PPA it crashes, so it can be useless. And if it matter, already tried the PPA - Crash Fixer, to no aval.

Spoiler

= Check ModsThis is a report on your currently active/merged mods.=== Active Mod Files:* 00  Fallout3.esm* 01  Anchorage.esm* 02  ThePitt.esm* 03  BrokenSteel.esm* 04  PointLookout.esm* 05  Zeta.esm* 06  Unofficial Fallout 3 Patch.esm  [Version 1.2.0]* 07  Impervious Power Armour.esm* 08  CRAFT.esm* 09  CALIBR.esm  [Version 1.3]* 0A  Project Beauty.esm* 0B  FO3 Wanderers Edition - Main File.esm* 0C  Mart's Mutant Mod.esm* 0D  FNNIguana.esm* 0E  Companion Core.esm* 0F  RobCo Certified v2.esm* 10  Enhanced Weather - Rain and Snow.esm* 11  Xepha's Dynamic Weather.esm* 12  StreetLights.esm* 13  DCInteriors_ComboEdition.esm* 14  busworld.esm* 15  Unofficial Fallout 3 Patch - Operation Anchorage.esp  [Version 1.2.0]* 16  Unofficial Fallout 3 Patch - The Pitt.esp  [Version 1.2.0]* 17  Unofficial Fallout 3 Patch - Broken Steel.esp  [Version 1.2.0]* 18  Unofficial Fallout 3 Patch - Point Lookout.esp  [Version 1.2.0]* 19  Unofficial Fallout 3 Patch - Mothership Zeta.esp  [Version 1.2.0]* 1A  FireLightFix.esp* 1B  LessRocks.esp* 1C  DarNifiedUIF3.esp* **  Project Beauty- Broken Steel.esp* **  Project Beauty- Point Lookout.esp* 1D  QuickerMessages.esp* 1E  QuickerMessagesOA.esp* 1F  QuickerMessagesPITT.esp* 20  QuickerMessagesBS.esp* 21  QuickerMessagesPL.esp* 22  BatteriesPlusV1_2.esp* 23  StreetLights - Wasteland.esp* 24  TakingOutTheTrash.esp* 25  casm.esp* 26  CRAFT - Activation Perk.esp* ++  GeneratorSound.esp* 27  GalaxyNewsRadio40[M].esp* 28  Existence2.0.esp* 29  UPP - Pack 1.esp* 2A  UPP - Pack 2.esp* 2B  UPP - Experience Perks.esp* 2C  UPP  - Quest Perks.esp* 2D  Cyber-Enhancements.esp* 2E  Expanded Megaton House V3-No Stove.esp* 2F  D.C. Confidential with Glow.esp* 30  Treasure Maps_Underground.esp* 31  Treasure Maps_Secrets of the Wasteland.esp* 32  Treasure Maps_Bobblehead Edition.esp* 33  Treasure Maps_A Fist Full of Caps.esp* 34  BusworldV1.05d.esp* 35  NoKnockedOverComments.esp* 36  MTC Wasteland Travellers.esp* 37  MTC Wasteland Travellers (Optional)- Crowded Cities less NPCs.esp* 38  DCInteriors_DLC_Collectables.esp* 39  Trophies - Megaton.esp* 3A  ClutterFreeWorld.esp* 3B  Tenpenny Suite.esp* 3C  FO3 Wanderers Edition - Main File.esp* 3D  FO3 Wanderers Edition - DLC Anchorage.esp* 3E  FO3 Wanderers Edition - DLC The Pitt.esp* 3F  FO3 Wanderers Edition - DLC Broken Steel.esp* 40  FO3 Wanderers Edition - DLC Point Lookout.esp* 41  FO3 Wanderers Edition - DLC Mothership Zeta.esp* 42  FO3 Wanderers Edition - Alternate Travel.esp* 43  FO3 Wanderers Edition - Followers Enhanced (BrokenSteel).esp* 44  FO3 Wanderers Edition - Optional VATS Halftime.esp* ++  FO3 Wanderers Edition - Optional Worn Weapons.esp* ++  FO3 Wanderers Edition - Optional Restore Tracers (automatics only).esp* 45  Refurbish [OA] - FWE.esp* ++  FO3 Wanderers Edition - Project Beauty.esp* ++  FO3 Wanderers Edition - Project Beauty (Followers Enhanced).esp* 46  Refurbishes [ALL].esp* 47  WeaponModKits.esp* 48  WeaponModKits - FWE Master Release.esp* ++  WeaponModKits - FWE Optional Worn Weapons.esp* 49  WeaponModKits - OperationAnchorage.esp* 4A  WeaponModKits - ThePitt.esp* 4B  WeaponModKits - BrokenSteel.esp* 4C  WeaponModKits - PointLookout.esp* 4D  WeaponModKits - Zeta.esp* 4E  Powered Power Armor.esp* 4F  PPA - FWE.esp* 50  EVE.esp* 51  EVE Operation Anchorage.esp* 52  EVE - FWE Master Release.esp* ++  EVE - FWE Master Release (Follower Enhanced).esp* ++  EVE Anchorage - FWE DLC Anchorage.esp* ++  EVE - FWE with WeaponModKits.esp* 53  Companion Core DLC Addon.esp* 54  RobCo Certified v2 Zeta Addon.esp* 55  Less Useless Karma Gifts 2.0.esp* **  Water Bottles 3000.esp* 56  Mart's Mutant Mod.esp* 57  Mart's Mutant Mod - DLC Anchorage.esp* 58  Mart's Mutant Mod - DLC The Pitt.esp* 59  Mart's Mutant Mod - DLC Broken Steel.esp* ++  Mart's Mutant Mod - DLC Point Lookout.esp* 5A  Mart's Mutant Mod - DLC Zeta.esp* **  Mart's Mutant Mod - Project Beauty.esp* 5B  Mart's Mutant Mod - FWE Master Release.esp* ++  Mart's Mutant Mod - Project Beauty + FWE.esp* 5C  Mysteriouswoman_dressncoat.esp* 5D  T3T_OutcastTechSupport.esp* ++  T3T_MiscItemIcons.esp* 5E  DLM_FFOutcastsQuest(FWEEd).esp  [Version 1.10]* ++  DLM_FFOutcastsQuest_Override-DLC.esp* 5F  Useful Wasteland Clipboards.esp* 60  Attentater's Wasteland Economy.esp* ++  Less_Blood.esp* 61  NoTheftComments.esp* 62  AMPUTATE!.esp* 63  solarcharger.esp* ++  RobCo Certified v2 FWE Patch.esp* 64  Announcer.esp* 65  PPA - Broken Steel.esp* 66  PPA - Operation Anchorage.esp* 67  megalight.esp* 68  Enhanced Weather - Weather Sounds in Interiors.esp* 69  Realistic Interior Lighting.esp* 6A  Realistic Interior Lighting - BS.esp* 6B  Realistic Interior Lighting - OA.esp* 6C  Xepha's Dynamic Weather - Main.esp* 6D  Xepha's Dynamic Weather - Anchorage.esp* 6E  Xepha's Dynamic Weather - The Pitt.esp* 6F  Xepha's Dynamic Weather - Broken Steel.esp* 70  Xepha's Dynamic Weather - Point Lookout.esp* 71  Xepha's Dynamic Weather - Experimental Green Tint Remover.esp* 72  Xepha's Dynamic Weather - Rain.esp* 73  Xepha's Dynamic Weather - Sandstorm.esp* 74  Night Time Sneak Boost.esp* ++  FNNIguana - MMM.esp* ++  FNNIguana - FWE.esp* 75  Bashed Patch, 0.esp

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 9:13 am

Is it on selection of a perk, or just a level up itself?

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 7:42 am

@Fcara1

Is there any chance you could upload your save file? So far I think this makes 4 reports of the level up crashes, but given that only 4 out of 328 downloaders have reported this problem (and everybody levels up, right?) I'm sort of doubting that I'll be able to reproduce it right away.

According to Justinother, something similar happened with FOOK a while back, and it ended up being a sort of random corruption of armor objects. Power armor helmets with night vision scripts attached caused the crash, but it wasn't anything in the scripts themselves - any script applied to those objects would also cause the crash. To fix it, he had to recreate the helmets and apply the scripts to the duplicates.

I could probably just go through and rename, duplicate, and delete every one of the armor upgrades that PPA adds, but I'm concerned that doing so would increase the chance of recreating this bug, and without a glitching save game I'd have no way to tell. I'd rather nail down which armor (or possibly misc. item) it is, and just replace that one. Since you've verified that your game still crashes with only PPA installed, I think yours would be the best/easiest for me to use.

*Edit - I also notice you're not using the crash fixer. Could you try it out, and tell me if that solves the problem? 2 of the people reporting this crash were already using the crash fixer, and it didn't help, but it sounds like it may have fixed it for Drelnoch.

@PintoCat

Agreed, noise has a tremendous impact on your ability to sneak. There's also no line of sight for sound - if you're quiet you could hide from somebody while wearing a bright orange shirt, so long as you were behind something. But start making noise and it will be pretty obvious that something is there, even if you're not sure right away where it is. I also don't see any reason why stealth fields would be any less effective, visually, for someone wearing power armor versus leather or combat or whatever. So I think the best solution, if I'm going to implement toggleable stealth fields for power armor, would be to disable the servos whenever the stealth field was engaged. -6 agility, -50% speed, but just as quiet as any other form of armor. That would be believable, and solve the balance issue - you'd definitely want to use a non-powered armor if your play style relies on frequent sneaking.