Wow, just wow. Back to Morrowind I go. Vielen Dank for all your time and effort on this mod.

*Delirious with joy*

Dankesch?n, bhl

Hooray! So great to see this finally completed. Fantastic work bhl and congratulations on your release! =D

Thaaaaankssss!!!!

I know that rainy and cold days of winter won't be boring now!

Hi -

I'm just going through the readme, and I see that you mention unresolved conflicts with LGNPC Pax Redoran and Tel Uvirith. Can you give us a specific idea of where the conflicts lie?

Thanks in advance!

Yes thank you bhl for the wonderful work on this mod.

Awesome! Just Awesome. The only thing I would suggest for further versions is a way to not kill the Duke. But everything else is great. I will definitely play a telvanni now.

The Duke seems to me a rather reasonable, just, and fairminded sort, as evidence in-game shows that he is even willing to act against the criminal activity of his brother, Orvas Dren, valuing his position as Duke over petty political rivalry. He refers to the residents of Morrowind as "his people", which is notable as he did not say his "constituents" [of House Hlaalu]...so I would agree, I doubt that assassination would be necessary.

On the other hand, House Hlaalu only acquired that position through assassination after the Armistice, so it isn't too out of character for House Telvanni to do the same. An excerpt from "The Affairs of Wizards" by Master Aryon emphasizes the methods of Telvanni:



For my character, I'd prefer ultimate power over shared power with the weak Hlaalu. :flamethrower:

After all, the Telvanni think that wisdom confers power, and power confers right.

The nature of the conflict is that a few LGNPC 'quests' depend upon Duke Dren being among the living and Rise of House Telvanni introduces a real possibility that the Duke may pass on. We are currently working on updates for several of our installments, including Pax Redoran and Tel Uvirith that are affected by the Duke's uncertain future.

A few solutions have been discussed, and there is still some concern about how to have one Pax Redoran quest that spans much time resolve should the Duke be killed before the quest concludes. One is to shift the principle of the quest to the late Duke's successor, but that will not guard us against other instances of the Duke being killed when RoHT is not loaded. So we have settled for a check that the Duke lives as a condition for the quest being offered in all but the one long-term quest. For the latter we are looking for another NPC that could speak for the Duke - perhaps a new temporary NPC that is an emissary of the Emperor.

A solution that assures our quests can be completed regardless of events other mods might trigger should have been part of the original quest design. That is why we favor a fix that does not depend on RoHT or any other mod.

Some of us at LGNPC also mourn the passing of the Duke and would welcome a resolution that does not require his death. However who can say what a Telvanni will do or why? Perhaps in future releases of RoHT the Duke may live, but regardless of Dren's fate it should be possible to complete our quests.

What if you use his daughter to manipulate him, maybe he is a big softy... OR you keep her locked up indefinitely thus making him bend to your will. There could even be a rescue attempt that you could foil and then the sadistic telvanni could cut off a finger or hand and send it to him.

The scheming Telvanni would have lots of ways to manipulate the Duke, for sure one way would be to kill him, but there should be other ways.

I love the way that playing Telvanni, or even talking about playing Telvanni brings out the scheming, manipulative side in all of us! Hmm... should I kill the swit or just emotionally cripple him by kidnapping and torturing his daughter? True Telvanni Style

cyran0, thank you for the detailed reply.

Thank you very much! You have been a wonderful Beta Tester. Here's to you. :foodndrink:



And thank you all for your kind words! Vielen Dank! :touched:




So... There seems to be a genuine demand to spare Duke Dren's life in RoHT... I'm honestly surprised at that because killing him has been part of RoHT for more than six years, and I don't remember hearing that request before. Oh well, let's have a look at the possibilities:

That is exactly the problem with Duke Dren: He's reasonable. At least from the Empire's point of view, and that contradicts Telvanni interests. Damania, House Telvanni's special envoy to Ebonheart's Grand Council, sums it up rather nicely:

The Duke is clever, and he might even outsmart the player when (s)he tries to negotiate with him about a Telvanni consulate on Ebonheart's ground. One of Duke Dren's main concerns is the balance of power between all Great Houses which of course means that he won't easily let House Telvanni gain an advantage.
His daughter Ilmeni is much more susceptible. She doesn't know how to maneuver in the deep waters of intrigue and politics; she's a naive revolutionary who spends her time with noble things like teaching people to read or aiding a single slave. If the Duke's death wouldn't create such a political vacuum in troubled times, the Council would probably take a long time to elect a suitable successor. But times are troubled. RoHT alone can have a catastrophic effect on no less than two factions, and new Telvanni settlements literally spring out like mushrooms. The Council is worried that it might be overrun by a wave of Telvanni settlements, so it applies the natural order of succession. And that's their mistake because House Telvanni has only been waiting for this opportunity.


As I see him, Duke Dren would be a very tough opponent, even if his daughter was held prisoner by the Telvanni. I can imagine him announcing publically that House Telvanni is trying to blackmail him. And then? We'd have a stalemate situation. House Telvanni couldn't possibly let Ilmeni free without being mocked. It couldn't kill her, either: that would end all hope for more influence in Vvardenfell politics. Killing Ilmeni might even lead to a Hlaalu/Telvanni House war. In each case, Ilmeni would be a useless burden for House Telvanni.

I might be persuaded to add an alternative way to this quest, but it would have to be worked out thoroughly. This quest is quite complex as it is: It features three possible endings, all of which leave Duke Dren dead, and, with its 44 Journal entries, it is also very long. There's no way I could add a complex blackmail/whatever quest line in a quick and easy way. Even if I added this quest, I would never remove the possibility to have Duke Dren killed: this has always been RoHT's climix, and I won't simply throw it away. So we'd always have a possible mod conflict.

I'm not against an alternative solution to this quest; I just don't see one at the moment. If you've got a believable, well thought out alternative, let me know. Or just fire up the CS, and make it. As I have already written in the readme file: RoHT is made to be modded.


:D :nod:

Big congrats! Definitely putting this on when I fire up Morrowind again. Loved your previous version.

What about some form of magical mind control?

I'm not saying that the possibility to kill Duke Dren be taken out completely, I just know that in my personal game I want things to flow evenly into Oblivion as much as possible.



This is a good idea as well, search in Divayth's notes for an ancient psjiic spell that requires a whole lot and can only be done once to make a potion or spell. Maybe you can enter Dren's mind and do things like that.

I also think that killing him could cause a house war just as much as hiding his daughter.

IT depends on how much he loves his daughter and how fearful he would be for her life.

I think it is reasonable to think that he would work in subterfuge with trying to rescue his daughter.

Also you could try and blackmail him some other way. Maybe he has an illegitimate child or he can specifically be targeted in smuggling schemes.
I know this isn't in the actual game but it could be stretched.
How much would he lose favor if he did have an illegitimate child? What other possible ways would there be to wrap him around your finger.

This next idea is a little farfetched, but what if you got a look-alike somehow in place? The Telvanni are masterful Wizards so it is not out of the realm of possibility.

And with the mages guild gone who are they going to trust to examine him for magical oddities?

Quick question: if my PC is the Archmage, and becomes leader of the Telvanni, what will happen when the "destroy the Mages Guild" quest occurs? I would think the fact that the PC heads the mages wouldn't exactly be a great secret, and the Telvanni are not known for their love of the guild.

I think it'd also be an interesting alternate if you could stage several assasination attempts that direct suspicion onto the other houses and eventually gain his trust by 'helping' him get to the bottom of these attempts.

Then House Telvanni will probably underachieve in your game. It's perfectly possible not to harm other guilds, but House Telvanni won't gain much power by sparing its adversaries. Well, that's why I added choices into RoHT. If you want to subordinate Telvanni interests for a quest, who am I to complain? That's why I added choices.


Entering someone's mind again? This is becoming a habit.


It is reasonable to think of him that way, but I frankly don't see him like that. I do see him as a loving and caring father, but I also see him as a statesman who subordinates his own interests if Vvardenfell's future is at stake. I believe that he would rather crack down on House Telvanni than cave in if his daughter was in danger. And if his moves against House Telvanni failed, I'm pretty sure that he would rather resign his post than risk a political disequlibrium in House Telvanni's favour.


Morrowind is a fantasy world: I doubt that an illegitimate child would cause much of a stir. Maybe if the mother is a Khajiit. :shrug: But, again, I'm pretty sure that he would rather resign his post than risk a political disequlibrium in House Telvanni's favour. I'd rather believe the psjiic spell quest.


That won't solve any mod conflicts. A lookalike is still a different NPC, so that "vedam dren" won't be available for other mods. And the lookalike would pose logical problems with other mods, to boot: if Vedam Dren has been replaced with someone else, how is this someone supposed to function as a surrogate in mods like "Balmora Council Club" or the LGNPC series?



True. But what if the Mages Guild isn't gone? oo: Maybe the player chose not to send the mercenaries.



Quick answer: You'll find yourself in a moral conflict. The masters will know that you are Archmage, but they will nonetheless demand that you destroy the Mages Guild. So what will you do? Do what you think is right. If you choose to save the guild, you won't see a couple of (really interesting) quests (that you certainly don't want to miss out on ), that's all.



That's a possibility wo win his trust, but what you're really after is to have him in your grip.

Well after you win his trust then you could give him a specially enchanted helm that you made to 'protect him' from further assasination attempts. With say a constant drain willpower (and maybe intelligence and presonality) that would simulate turning him into more of an easy to manipulate simpleton.

Well you could have the player kill the lookalike. Have the quest o like this-telvanni council tells you to kill Duke Dren after he meets in his secret quarters with Hlaalu leaders. The Dukes replacement is already positioned in Ebonheart (where the Duke normally is.) So you create a NPC, put him in a secret area in Ebonheart/wherever. The player kills the Duke (who is actually just some NPC you created) and can meet with the lookalike (who is actually Bethesdas Duke, untouched.)

I really like to play things a little more subtly. But then morrowind doesn't really pander to that sort of thinking.

The man is already wearing a full set of Ebony armour: he's got enough protection. To boot, he can't possibly wear a helmet all the time. In negotiations, you need to see the other party, and you need to be seen as well. It's a matter of mutual respect and trust. So I highly doubt that he'd accept to wear a helmet.



A question in advance: have you already played this quest? I get the impression that you haven't seen v1.3's changes to it: neither the player nor House Telvanni may be involved directly in this, or Ilmeni and the Council will smell the rat.
Anyway: That's a possibility, but it would mean to take Ilmeni out of the quest. And that's something I'm not willing to do: I spent weeks working on that quest, and I like how it turned out.
I guess the best alternative is a simple quest switch where the player may choose not to kill the Duke and leave things as they are. That's how RoHT handles the Mages Guild quest, and it'll work for Duke Dren as well.



Not really, no. A lot of Morrowind's quests involve killing other people, although House Telvanni is one of the more civilized and peaceful factions when you compare them with the Guild of Mages. And though RoHT does require a few NPCs to be killed, it also offers a lot of quests where you don't need to harm anybody.

I think it is great as it is, and I really like how bhl has made it very moddable.
I only wish there was a TR patch which allowed the path to Grandmagister, but bhl has heard this from me before, and I know it would be a ton of work.