Depends on how you look at it... because your own player skill can determine that stuff, or a dice roll can determine it just as effectively.

The big thing that made Morrowind's combat tedious to those who aren't prepared for it, in my opinion:

In most RPGs (WoW, Baldur's Gate, etc.), you click once and watch your character swing and miss a bunch of times. In Morrowind, you click for every single swing, which can become frustrating especially when there's no dodging animation and you expect each swing to make contact.

I thought you were going to play Baldurs Gate?
Final Fantasy 2(now 4) was my first RPG, Morrowind was my second. I was bothered from missing all the time and even died once because I just wouldn't hit.

I don't think you can go around someones block with player skill, you have to wait till they lower their shield. You may be able to jump backwards to dodge, but that is next to impossible because you have to predict when the enemy attacks.

It's not that easy. Seriously, assuming you've never properly used a sword before, I challenge you to find a proffessional fencer, and try to hit him in a sword fight. You will, most definatly, fail. Miserably. It's the same as in Morrowind. Morrowind's system is far more realistic. A lack of dodge animations may have been a downside, but that doesn't make the whole combat system awful.

The poll is too extreme. I like parts of MW's system, but generally, I think combat was one of those few elements that Oblivion got right.

The worst part of MW's system for me was handling of spells. They were treated as a "weapon", so you had to switch from your sword/axe/whatever to "hands". It was ridiculous, NPCs were too slow with it and generally, it felt very artificial. In Oblivion it was hundred times better, although IMO casting spells with OH-weapon and shield should be somewhat penalised - it gave you too much of an advantage.

However, I preferred MW's chance of casting failure than OB's boring unlock-new-spells-as-you-gain-skill. A given skill should also affect spell cost, though, as in Oblivion. Willpower should affect your rate of Magicka regeneration (your Magicka pool shouldn't be a factor, though), as in Oblivion.

Manual blocking is the way to go, although IMO it shouldn't be so linear as in Oblivion. I would combine Morrowind's "blocking chance" with Oblivion's manual blocking. Consequently, it would look like this:
- Your character blocks/parries only when you click RMB (right mouse button)
- There is a basic formula for "failed" parries, determined by the skill, with min. and max. levels (for example = 20% for min and 70% for max; for shield blocking it could be 33% and 85% or sth similar)
- Your skill also affects the chance for "successful" block, i.e. the one giving no damage, as in Morrowind
- Block skill should handle shield blocking. Parrying with your weapons should be determined by weapon skill - it's funny that a swordmaster has no clue how to parry strikes with swords...
- Blocking or parrying should always consume some stamina (fatigue), but it should be reduced by high weapon/block skill (but never totally nullified!)

I would also combine MW's dice rolls with Oblivion damage reduction. Generally speaking, I preferred MW's system, as it really distinguished between a skilled swordsman and a poor one. However, OB's system also had some good points. Therefore, I propose the following:
- Damage is handled by Strength, while skill plays no direct role in this - it's simply more logical
- Skill affects a chance for critical hits, i.e. hits that would do 3x damage; if you fail to inflict a critical hit, it's presumed that you inflicted only a "minor" hit (light wounds) and it's animated, i.e. actors do an automatic, partially successful parry or dodge, unless it was a final hit causing death, of course; enemy's blocking animation overrides the one than plays with failed hits, of course (although the animation itself could be more dynamic - the one from Oblivion suxxed)
- Skill and agility (or strength in case of heavy weapons) affect weapon speed - something which was not the case either in Oblivion or Morrowind
- Directional attacks are back. They were much better than OB's button mashing and some weapons (longswords, mostly) were more "flexible" than the other ones, even if they inflicted lower "nominal" damage

Stamina (or "Fatigue") should affect both your chance to inflict critical hits AND nominal damage. Also, it should affect chance for successful spell casting, as in Morrowind. Therefore, it would become the main factor determining combat readiness and real attrition battles would be possible.

I would go somewhere inbetween. Missing hits, failing spells from Morrowind. But I love the control you feel when playing Oblivion, so manual blocking from Oblivion.

Overall I would slightly lean towards Oblivion as the better out of the two for combat, and thats mainly down to how it makes you feel more into the combat, rather than sitting behind dice rolls.

The main problem that I have with the combat in past TES games is that it has been too predictable, and in turn not as exciting as it could be. An npc who has has higher levels in combat and combat related skills than another will almost certainly win 100% of the time, while we know that in real life, this is not always the case. Just bringing in more of either player skill or probability into combat will vastly improve it imo.

That's seti who said he's gonna play Baldur's Gate.

This. You combined the best elements from both games and created a really good idea.

I challenge you to find a crab anywhere on Earth that can best a man in a swordfight. Not possible, you say? Then why is it that, in Morrowind if I have a long sword, but am not trained in using a long sword, I will continuously miss a mudcrab 2 inches away from me as it slowly bites away my health? That's far from realistic. What Morrowind tried to do was realistic on paper but far too extreme in concept. Constantly failing to land a strike on absolutely any living creature or character in the game with a weapon that you aren't trained in is the complete opposite of realistic and frankly I really have no idea how you can think otherwise.

This isn't my first experience with Baldur's Gate, though. Baldur's Gate II was my first RPG. I'm ordering the game and its sequel for the nostalgic memories.

Remember that you are not playing yourself, but different characters with various set of skills. Therefore, while some player skill should always be involved, you should really feel the impact of your character's skill levels. Your role as a player is to use the tools you have to their uttermost - you can manually dodge hits, attempt to stay out of enemy's weapon range, choose different spells and you can try to block enemy hits when you can't dodge them, but character development is still the most important factor in battles.

What do you think of its combat style, then?

I personally prefer it to all the TES games, although for gameworld and roleplaying I prefer TES games.

But Baldur's Gate's combat removed the tedium of clicking for every swing and I really like the way they do magic.

I like Baldur's Gate's combat, but again, my problem with Morrowind's combat is that it's for a first-person, real-time game in which I must click for each swing. Baldur's Gate's combat works for Baldur's Gate(same thing goes for KotOR and Dragon Age's combat), a third person, party based RPG. Morrowind's combat, for me, at least, just doesn't work for the viewpoint, in my opinion. I have nothing against dice rolls, but in some way, I believe first-person combat should be more than just clicking as fast as I can or telling a character to attack once and just watch combat play out by itself. I feel as if blocking should be manual and there should be some character involvement to make the combat fun, but with character skill determining just how well the character does something that the player commands the character to do. I don't want combos, Assassins' Creed style countering, or God of War style "click this button now to decapitate your enemy in the goriest fashion possible", but animations to show missing or failing at an attack with some control to my character's actions is what I want if a dice roll system is used.

Oblivion is not the first RPG I've played that has damage be based on character skill instead of hitting or missing. That seems to be a more modern development in RPGs, but it's not the first time I've come across that. I want a mix of failure and damage dealt based on skill and attributes with manual blocking and animations for missing in the next Elder Scrolls game. I don't think there should be perks, but I'm picturing a system that feels like Oblivion's(manual blocking, swinging from different sides/angles, and power attacks based on directional movement) combined with both a chance of failure(Morrowind) and damage dealt based on skills and attributes(Oblivion), but to a reduced degree for the failure, as I felt it was far too much in Morrowind, but combined with an untouched version of Oblivion's damage dealt system, I think it would be balanced. You would choose when to block, but you may fail completely based on blocking skill and a dice roll(similar to Morrowind, but with the blocking being manual). When you succeed at blocking, damage reduced depends on blocking skill, as well(similar to Oblivion). You would be able to attempt any power attack at any skill level but a dice roll in combination with your blade skill would determine if you fail or succeed, while still including only a small chance, but still a greater chance than Oblivion's 5% chance, to actually make use of that attack's effect. You would also be able to attempt to use any spell at any level, but skill level increases would decrease the cost of each spell(Oblivion) as well as increass one's chance to succeed(Morrowind). I also think magicka should regenerate as in Oblivion, but perhaps to a slightly lesser degree. I definitely want to be able to cast spells with a weapon drawn, as well. For the dodging of acrobatics in Oblivion, I think that should stay, but again, be attempt-able at any skill level with a chance of failure based on skill level and a dice roll. All the effects of Oblivion's perks would become gradually improving possibilities(possibilities at any skill level) in this system that I'm thinking of combined with a chance of failure and Oblivion's damage dealt or damage reduced formulas.

Seti, read my post above. I think you would be satisfied with the system I proposed.

Oblivions combat is 100x better than Morrowinds combat. I hated standing 2 inches from my enemy and still missed. That was the worst part of Morrowind. Every time I play it now I have to train before I do anything because I hate not being able to hit the enemy.

Game Mechanics. Imagine how unbalanced the game would be if I could hit every Golden Saint I saw without fail. Not being able to hit mudcrabs is far, FAR, FAR more realistic than being able to hit literally anything in the universe with minimal skill. I mean, I could even beat on gods. What the hell?

Anyway, if you read my posts, I think I've clearly stated on pretty much every post that I'm not saying Morrowind is better than Oblivion. I've simply said that I prefer Morrowind, and that Oblivion is more player based.

You could hit anything on the first try if it didn't dodge.

I like the aspect of player skill, but I think character skill should hinder player skill. For example, your character is only 10 in Marksman, how are they supposed to accurately aim? The bow should move around a bit while you're firing, and the arrows should sometimes fire off course. I mean, if you think about it in Oblivion if you got used to using bows you could always snipe anything from anywhere, it didn't really matter that your character's skill was 10 because you were used to using the bow system, and you were as experienced as a level 100, without the damage and special effects boosts. Sometimes a player character should mess up when swinging a sword, casting a spell, or shooting a bow, if they're skill's too low. And Morrowind simulated that. If they added it in a realistic way, and I don't mean a "dice-roll" for every attack (although it would be similar), it would make advancing through the ranks feel a lot better. Let's say you're shooting at a bandit at the bottom of a mountain, but you're inexperienced. The arrow should veer off course frequently, maybe the bow should sway more when you've got a low level. Maybe a level 10 in a Marksman should have their bow shake wildly because they don't know what the @#(% they're doing.

As for other systems, you could also make up methods that character skill should hinder player skill partially.

It's hard to play a civilian when you're experienced with a weapon from your past characters, but if your "hit" and "damage" percentage reflected your characters skill more, it would make you less inclined to use weapons that you aren't skilled in, which is sort-of the way it should work. I don't mean missing all the time, but being experienced in a weapon should have HUGE benefits. Learning new moves instead of just "swing blade" would also make leveling a weapon be more mandatory, so you and a master of [insert blade skill here] aren't equals.

I should be able to hit anything with any weapon, how can you stand 2 inches in front of anything and miss? Really, it doesn't make a lick of sense to me how I can take a 4 foot sword, stand 1 foot away and miss. It should be impossible, especially seeing as how the enemy doesn't even try to dodge. Now if they dipped and dodged and parried I could understand, but they just take it and smile.

It's a question of proper animations and AI, not game mechanics itself.

Neither really, I like Oblivions the most of the two, but it isn't halfway decent compared to what it could be. If Morrowind had a lock on, or if missing was governed by physics, It would probably win, but too much isn't implemented right, Oblivions problem is that a lot isn't implemented at all.

Yes, for a game like TES, combat that plays and feels as smooth as Oblivion's but re-incorporates failure vs. success as opposed to plain player endurance would be ideal. Which can be considered FO3's system, if you get used to VATSing yourself to death.
(sorry if I misinterpreted what you said).

I'm kind of neutral on blocking.

Not sure if I'm for regenerating magicka, though. I like, in Morrowind, how a powerful spell can just svck all the energy out of me and I have to rest. It mimics the impact of magicka on people in the books on magicka, like Water Breathing. (Edit: Breathing Water, sorry)

However, I agree that magicka not regenerating can be a PITA when you're trying to play a pure mage, which is a feat I'm yet to accomplish in any game but Oblivion. (granted I never tried very hard)

I would opt for, maybe, magicka that doesn't regenerate, but a birthsign or two that give you regenerating magicka... maybe even the mage and all it's charges.

EDIT: Or even better, bring back advantages and disadvantages.

Morrowinds(Spells failed, missing at low level, missing at low fatigue, auto-blocking)
Oblivions(Spells didn't fail but had level requirements, no missing but did less damage, manual blocking)

If you are unable to fail in anything, why have a skill system in the 1st place? So, failure from TES3 is a must. Still, Dodge skill works as an automated skill, while blocking is better to be manual.

Off topic: even the quests in TES4 were created unfailable. I just don't understand this kind of approach.

I think that overall i preferred Oblivion's combat system, though i liked Morrowind's spell system and liked. Also, the concept of missing while at low fatigue was cool, though that could have been done differently (maybe even mixed with the lower damage).

My point exactly, at least in the professional "fencer" department. Using sword is only one third of being a fencer, there is also blocking and dodging and if this "fencer" couldn't dodge or block you would be able to hit him. I understand exactly what you mean and I read your posts and respect your opinion now if you would read mine(I know I sound confusing at times). I did say that a master of blade would be able to cut through a novice of blocks defense.

It annoyed me in Oblivion that any random thing could block and I would recoil despite being 75 in blade.


Sorry.