Indeed. To compare launch content against WoW is not a feasible argument. WoW launched in an age when no comparable MMO even exists on the internet. Heck, it'd get away with releasing no content past level 50 (max 60) at that time!

Nowadays? A MMO will NEED compelling endgame for all kinds of players (casual content, PvE content, PvP content, cowclicker content, RP potential, completionist content, etc.) at the very start in order to keep its players. Regardless of what those older MMOs launched with, the fact stays that they launched earlier and will have an advantage in content. It's not a fair fight, so no MMO should enter the market expecting a fair fight. Make content or die.

I don't think you can compare a tabletop RPG to an MMO lol. Maybe if you are playing the EQ RPG. Did they have one for WoW? The point of D&D and other tabletop RPGS isn't your level. It can take RL years for a campaign to get to "max level" and that would be almost completely irrelevant to the content of the game. What tabletop RPGs were you playing that level was the main focus? Are you the reason 4.0 exists? If so, please stop playing tt rpgs and feeding game designers crap input.

Yes, most of us are TES fans lol. It's you invading our game not the other way around. You will say and do the same things for every MMO that comes out and your idea of playing "Seriously" is playing nonstop for a year at most and then moving on. This game is throwaway to you regardless of how good it is. Why should your needs be tended to instead of the loyal fanbase of TES?

You are not in any way a "long term gamer" or you wouldn't be here complaining about endgame and saying what a serious gamer you are. What is serious content? Does it oppose fun content then?

I don't know of any single player game that has held people's attention for years other than Dark Souls.

Only Co-Op games like Fighting Games and Racing Games. Nobody has played a single save file of like Final Fantasy 7 since it came out. They may have played it multiple times, but they took a break in between I can promise you that. Single player games are simply not sustainable.

However I can tell you that with very little breaks I have been playing WoW since 2007 consistently.

Completely agree with you. The raiding treadmill has been done to death and just ends up a matter of "being geared and knowing fights". Crafting emphasis would give us motivation to keep exploring and interacting with the environment.

Actually I think people like you come into a game like this to change it to your vision of what the game should be, because your last game just did not quite measure up to what you wanted.

People will get tired and will move on. New people will come. It's the way of life, nothing lasts forever. Panta Rei. I have tried WoW, it bored the [censored] out of me after 2 months. I have tired the latest ESO betas and I'm pretty sure ESO will keep me engaged for lot more. It's a win already. I don't understand people's obsession with something lasting XXXX. Just have fun and when you don't have fun anymore, move on. It's like trying to be high forever, it doesn't work that way. You have a great night and then you wake up dehydrated and grumpy for 3 days. Deal with it.

I can agree with you here: However it is important to note something...

It does not actually matter where the gear comes from as long as there is something to overcome using that gear.

Typically this comes in the form of slaying ever more difficult monsters as your gear increases. However people do not get this gear just to have it, they get it to use it against challenges and overcome those challenges. Carrot on a stick people.

That's what keeps MMOs alive. Carrot on a stick. It's not actually about gear. It's about overcoming obstacles with said gear.

I'm pretty sure only Onyxia's Lair was available at release.. BWL came with patch 1.6 and Aq40 came with patch 1.9.
Anyway, I've had a similar thread regarding this topic in the past, the only thing you can hope for is challanging enough bosses once you reach lvl 50 (VR is basically just grind exp, like in D3).. however, I personally doubt it'll be challenging enough (for me atleast).

That's the difference between a F2P and subscription-based revenue rationale.

A F2P MMO expect people to come and leave, since it gains revenue only from new players, and doesn't make as much from old players. A F2P MMO with a high turnover rate of players tend to be very successful.

A subscription-based MMO relies on old players staying with the game. A subscription-based MMO with a high turnover rate of players tend to eventually go F2P.

I stand corrected. I'm going by memory instead of wikis, so I guess it was just that they didn't actually work right or have raid loot in them?

http://www.wowwiki.com/Patch_1.1.0

** Raid loot is being worked on and temporary loot has been placed in raid encounters

But regardless, you are right, for whatever content they were worth at the time.

Yea it was broken at launch, but that's ok lets just gloss over that. Fully itemized content on launch! (except it wasn't).

I have no idea what you are saying. apparently your arguments have devolved into nonsense and personal attacks.

I am here because I want to see ESO succeed. ESO has some great ideas, but as a veteran MMO gamer, I have seen countless games rise and fall, and the ones that always fall are the ones without long-term content. Questing and dungeons are not long term content because people will only play them for a few months.

Quests, Dungeons and Themepark crafting is great, but NO MMORPG can survive on quests and dungeons and Themepark crafting alone.

Typically, MMOs have progression raiding to keep people engaged in the long term. ESO clearly does not have Progression Raiding OR ANYTHING EQUIVALENT.

I assume you want the game to fail in the long term thats why you are defending the current model that was released in very deep detail.

actually getting the gear is the carrot on a stick in most MMOs, or the gear is the carrot, the content is the stick. Or both. Point is It's sort of a vicious endless cycle of boring grinding and pissing matches about who's more uber than whom.

False. Whether you like it or not GW2 is still around and doing quite well. That doesn't mean ESO is going to be GW2, either, btw.

That sounds horrible. Being locked out of content is my most hated F2P mechanic, why would I want to have that in my P2P MMO.

Good points and in fact pvp is one aspect already in ESO which offers that something to overcome you mentioned using better gear. Human players are always going to be the most challenging and interesting opponents.

Well there is pvp too, however some people don't enjoy doing both.

I am that ultra-rare, possibly insane, member that enjoys: Questing, Roleplaying, Endgame PvP competitively and Endgame Raiding.

How do I know I'm ultra-rare? Because I played on a roleplaying server in WoW and trying to find a group of people that were serious about raiding and rated battlegrounds/arenas at the same time was impossible. They either wanted to do one or the other for some reason.

GW2 offers a truckload of content for a free to play game(or buy to play). Its not sub based and i think on that front the OP might have a point.

I've seen MMOs fail too, I've been gaming for over 30 years.

What I don't want to see is this turning into yet another WoW clone.

I have bolded the portion that shows that you aren't interested in playing the game long term. This is just another MMO. My post made perfect sense, you just want the game changed to your specifications. This game is both an MMO and a TES game and people are going to be looking for TES qualities.

I have done the hardcoe raiding 16 hours a day nonstop thing before on several games. It gets old and everyone else, who isn't doing that gets ignored. Why not just play another game, you obv aren't a big fan of TES, we could replace the storyline with anything else and you probably wouldn't even notice. You're interested in a single aspect of the game, which isn't even the bulk of the game. You don't intend to experience or enjoy anything else. There is definitely MMOs out there that want to accommodate you. I would just look harder.

That's like saying " If I can't get the best gear from fishing then there is no point having fishing."

Content, yes. Progressive content, no. They caught a ton of controversy just by introducing ascended gear, and most of their seasonal/themed content doesn't even focus on that level of gear.

No it's not.

Really? I figured it was more like 'if you get better fish from mobs then there's no point in having fishing.'