But, raiders also get bored of games fast and leave. I do not mean to be caustic here. But of the MMOs I played in recent years that had raids and gear grind and so on. Raiders never stayed very long. So the question for me here is, what do you really want as a raider from a brand new MMO? And what assurances can you give, it is worth it for a dev team, to invest in that above all other aspects, or at least as much as?

I say this because I see only old MMOs like EQ and WoW that have had long lasting raiders that moved on after a while, rather than a few weeks to months. And that seems to be because they set the trend of raiding as it is known now, and so did not have to deal with the demand they apparently created.

There is a lot about raiding PvE I do not understand. So if I seem to be missing something, or inaccurate in something, please bare with me.

I think there is alot more endgame than most people think. You wont even get 2/3 rds of your quests you can get until you are max level and doing the 50+ content of the other alliances zones. the story line dungeons as well will add alot more to do.

The adventure zones will most likely take alot of time to get the best rewards. they may also have have or add drops that are items fro crafters to make endgame crafted gear.

PVP wise there are 24 alliance ranks to get.

Now lets look at what they have talked about and hinted for adding after launch..

alliance reward system (DAOC's relam abilities) anyone who doesnt know.. this was a PVP progression system that let you keep improving our character with stats, abilities, bonuses (character was stronger in PVP and PVE). the ranks became increasingly harder and 99.99% never hit the cap. It let people keep improving their characters for years.

"Darkness Fall Dungeon" this hs already been hinted many times by Brian Wheeler as what the Imperial City in the center of Cyrodiil will be. This was a massive dungeon each alliance fought for control over threw PVP objectives. Once 1 side got control they got to clear the enemy alliance out. then it became a PVE prize with unique currency and gear as well as Raid style bosses as encounters. For a long period of time it also had some of the best gear rewards. Even 5 to 6 years later it still had some "rare" items people wanted.

remember we are going to keep seeing alot of stuff added to this game. but even looking at it right now it has alot to offer

I like questing and played plenty of mmo's. As much as I want people to sub I am beginning to wish a certain segment spent less time taking it upon themselves to speak for 'everyone' and a whole lot more time going forth.

Expansion packs. That is one of the benefits of paying a sub. I am quite sure there will be an expansion pack where we can invade the other planes and save other lands from other deadra princes. There is so much potential here. Get to endgame if you wish, do all the content they want, experience it then move on if you don't like it. That is what advlts do. We try something, and move on. Children cry and whine about not wanting to eat a vegetable they never had, yet when they actually taste it they enjoy it. OR they spit it out and say no.

Don't be a child. There is nothing wrong with stating an opinion but basing it on something you have yet to experience.......

Btw, I too have played MMo's for more years then I even care to admit. I can tell you how each one I feel failed in my eyes, and how it could of been saved. But that is not the place for that convo. Almost every MMO that came out since EQ and UO including those 2, are still bringing in money and still being played.

Since GW2 is thrown around quite a bit, I cannot tell you how many players (myself included) would of gave that game another try after a year of playing if an expansion pack came out, with new dungeons and new playable races. Hell look at the live content dungeon that came out, the Fire dungeon that existed for 2 weeks, I forget the name. U could get a jet pack backpack.. Molten Furnace or something. ANyway, point is that dungeon was one of the best dungeons I have ever ran. Everyone loved it. It was hard enough that u had to focus but easy enough that you could do it with a quick group. From jumping over PBAOEs and trying to stay alive, it was fun. They way they took it away so fast and never made another dungeon like that was disappointing in my eyes. But regardless there are always ways to save a game, but you have to give the game a chance before you can even begin to give an opinion.

except you'll be paying for that expansion pack...what does that have to do with subs? Also, an expac won't be out every month

You didn't read all of my responses. If you look closer I said I liked questing myself: However there was a reason the forums were flooded and blizzard backed down and reversed their dailies decision. because "most people" don't.

Yes,the game will stay like it is right now and the dont plan to add more content,you will have to repeat everything ad nauseum

I hope they dont have any tokens too! I ve read from a current wow user, that blizzard is abandoning tokens! So its not a good timing to add tokens into a pure legit mmo. Progress the crafting system, improve it where it needs improvements, add more rare recipe drops and loots.... Some unique items, wouldnt be bad...

We need some events, but i am not sure if TESO have a dynamic system of events... they do have the spawning portal from the skies, but I havent noticed anything else, other than classic questing. I love inteligent NPC, so I love it when they have increased AI and maybe some out of nowhere quests... dynamic.

Wait, you're saying because people don't like DAILIES that people don't like questing at all?

Completely different things.

the whole point of crafting, besides the joy of doing it (which doesn't require the selling part), is marketing your product and pushing it to other players. I was a craft fiend in the other MMOs I played and while I wasn't big on the business aspect, I have never seen a game reward crafting with money that wasn't player given. If anything crafting was a money sink.

You can read my statements elsewhere, because I already explained what the problem was.

TL;DR: People already "put up" with questing to get to max level to experience "the real game" and did not feel like more quests was a sufficient reward for that time sink because they were "sick of questing".

You seem to be distorting the reason there.

A lot of people do like questing what they don't like is endlessly doing dailies for some rep or other reward.

Repeatedly doing the same old daily quests gets boring fast.

And yet people love when they raise the level content and...add in more questing.

No, you clearly don't get the difference between daily 'content' and leveling content. Both are questing, but both are completely different.

I hate questing....but if its what I have to do in order to progress my character then that's what I have to do, Im still Brainwashed from Everquest "No, not EQ2" but the first one, 15 years ago that took 7 years of my life away grinding everyday for 7 years...it's just what im Use to, Questing can be interesting and fun...but when Questing becomes "Quest after Quest after Quest after Quest, whether each quest is different, its still the same concept as sitting in one spot killing and killing its just questing gets you moving from place to place and sometimes id like to stop questing, and just find a decent spot to get a few levels in by killing non stop and when I get annoyed ill go back to questing, but that's not the case with alot of mmo's, Questing is the best way to level while the old Fashion style/way takes longer and longer and longer"

Oh how I will miss Lycrates weekly gloom and doom posts after launch. Its been a good run man, might as well go out with a bang lol.

But yeah End game PvE has always been repeatable not sure how this is a surprise to you. You do them because the content is enjoyable, you repeat them because they have gear you want and in this case you want to improve your run time for the leader-board. This has been the formula for a long time

Crafting and exploring is what I will be doing. So crafting will be very useful for me and my friend. eventually have all the traits researched and have all set items available to craft. I really don't care if you can get better stuff through RvR or raids. It's all we will ever need

So you will be just crafting for you and your friend? As you'll find it hard to sell your high level gear if people can get better elsewhere.

Perhaps to keep some people engaged in the long term. Pvp bashing on one another gives me no incentive at all to stay interested and engaged. Raiding/pvp getting progressively harder or involving more and more players would, again, be a reason for me to find a different game.

Give me quests to do, with friends if possible, new places to explore, new things to find, more things to make and I'll stay. Remember at least some of the players they are attempting to interest are still playing Morrowind. The ten year old with no new dev created content released in how many years Morrowind.

The devs will have to find a middle way between the mmo content only and the content that interests players who want story *and* content over more ways to do a raid.

I feel you, EQ had no business being called everQUEST. There were none, especially if you were evil. That said, EQ has quests as progression content these days. Hell, there were a fair amount of quests even during Kunark, you just had to go out of your way to do them. They weren't really mandatory.

I don't think most people enjoy grinding though. I don't really want to do that personally, or I would go back to EQ.

Actually I am, or WAS, a raider. Nowadays I just don't have the time necessary to be a hardcoe raider and dedicate 30+ hrs a week to raids. I still do an occasional raid every Sunday for quite a number of hours though. However, my point still stands as does yours. Yes Raids do have lockouts. However they're still repeatable...as in I can go in the next week, and the next, and the next....

Don't get me wrong I think you're overall question about Adventure zones and Trials with no lockouts is a slight bit troubling. However the game isn't even launched yet. I will hold my skepticism till then.

I certainly wouldn't grind dungeons or even battlegrounds for gear progression anymore, that really makes a game boring.

The problem with quests is that Developers can never generate them faster than people consume them. Thats why quests cannot be long term content.

You know that great quest you finished in a couple hours? It took developers a week to create it, maybe more.

Subscription MMOs either need to be Sandbox or they need Progression content to stay relevant. Otherwise, players will always consume the rest of the content too fast.

Lack of end game pve content or poor end game pve content -> f2p faster than you can say http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQ-V5qvMow4

No raid lockouts and repeatable boss kills already starting to smell like f2p.

Engaged raiding, is translated as greeding gear and tokens. One of the reasons that makes me bored in all mmos. Especially tokens, I hate tokens, tokens is my enemy because it makes me feel I am paying for a charity game. I dont want charities! Instead of engaged raiding, I prefer sandbox ideas and implementations, that makes players create, evolve in ways that not even devs could even imagine. I dont hate raiding dungeons for 1-2-3-4-5 times if I want to, but I do hate tokens and have to beg for a piece of armor and do it again and again and again and again till the guild master will pity me to give me a piece of armor..

And TESO the way it is, cannot support engaged raiding, because all players get equal loot. So you suggest to stop that too? And here is a question...

If bethesda gives you the most amazing engaged raiding bosses and dungeons, it will take you months till you make it... But the loots are equal and there is no tokens. Are you going to be satisfied? I think not, because engaged raiding, goes with armor and tokens and power over others. I preffer quality content than tokens and loots.

I'm glad this game is subscription considering the state of a lot of games that are not.

For most of the TES players I don't think the sandbox part is much of an issue, as we know how to put our feet in the sand.