I'm just surprised there's so many people not wanting a prone...i love the SMART cause it makes sense i can actually move and climb as if i'm human instead of a hippo,why not lay down it's not so hard of a feat, it makes the game a little more realistic.

And i still think bunny hoping and drop shots aren't really pro, its a 6 yr old who just got some coffee and is so hyper he's hyper in the game, people will always be lame online just look at Red Dead people shoot me n then are surprised when i shoot them back (i've actually made it a hobby to hunt people down and kill'em over n over till they say sorry, i had 2 guys in they're twenty's running away trying to hide, i kept killing both of'em on my own) nothing i hate more then people being so lame, thinking they're good. just when i get people to realize "don't mess with me you and your whole posse will die over and over again" new people join and start trying to kill me. :shakehead:

Irony.

Ker-plonk.

- F

Ok, ok, I'll try not to be overly critical here, but you seemed to get really defensive when I pointed out that people don't like drop-shotters and campers. Going immediately to the "they don't like it because they svck and I'm uber-pro" defense just further supports my theory that the only people who like drop-shotting and camping are the drop-shotters and campers themselves.

It was the same thing with weakening up the sniper rifles a while back (glad that finally died down, by the way). The "snipers" were in a tizzy because they wanted to still be able to OHK people, even though all of the other guns take multiple shots. All of the non-snipers were fine with the decision, because they were tired of getting insta-killed by guys they couldn't even see, perched on a hill a mile away. It is the same here, only with different demographics. But like I said, with Brink the devs want the game to be as enjoyable as possible for as many people as possible. And that means removing or nerfing things that the majority of players dislike.

Well, sniping can and can not be camping. if you are a sniper that stays in one single position just shooting people that walk by then yes, you are a camper. But if you are a sniper that constantly is moving and shoots people while you are moving, then no, you are not a camper.
About time, I think that the second that you stand still and wait for someone to walk by for you to shoot, that is camping. I myself used to used mostly 2 kinds of camping. 1. I would run around, stop at a corner for 2 seconds, check my surrounding, and start running again. Rinse and repeat. It was a much more dynamic camping than your usual camping, but camping nonetheless. 2. If I literally saw an enemy coming my direction and felt he had not seen me, I would run into a corner, and when he was walking by, shoot him down. Kinda of a more opportunistic type of camping, but camping nonetheless. All of this is just opinion of course.

No, i dont think camping is defined by what gun you use. And your position or FOV does not matter either. And I want to reiterate that I am not against camping. I actually think it is very fundamental specially when defending, not to mention effective.


And heed my words, here and today, that brink will have a LOT of camping on this game, with or without prone! I would even go as far as to say that there will be more camping than in CoD, BF, KZ, or even Crysis.

It is OK to have prone, but at least with a condition:

When stance is switched to prone (or switched back to stand or crouch), players must be unable to shoot for a reasonable short-time.

Otherwise the gameplay will not be cool.

SAme here

I Agree with shinigami, camping in brink will be to the max

That's precisely the case. Here, let me paint a picture fer ya:

I happen to be one of the world's best Wipeout players (truth). When Wipeout Pure for the PSP was introduced, so were the concept of barrel rolls. In other words, with a quick left-right-left on the PSP's direction pad, my hovercraft would spin a quick 180 degrees in the air, land and be rewarded with a momentary boost in speed. Turbo for all intents and purposes.

The thing is, a select few players were ridiculously creative in finding places in the various Wipeout tracks in which to perform said barrel rolls -- places that the majority of human hands that ever played the game would never have the patience, creativity, and the skill in turn to execute. Net result was that the select few would decimate the less capable because they were able to leave those folks in the dust with superior racing lines and extra barrel rolls. This naturally created a chasm in the community divided neatly into two categories: those that approved of barrel rolls as a valuable and enjoyable tool for pushing Wipeout racing to the utter limit, and those that didn't.

The less capable, bitter and prone to rationalization, were up in arms when the leaderboards began to settle. They made so much noise in fact that Studio Liverpool, the designers of the lastest Wipeout incarnation (Wipeout HD), built the option of disabling barrel rolls in an iterative patch. Noobs, 1. Pros, 0. And it's worth mentioning, that I, never one to hold my tongue when people won't quit making excuses for themselves, ended up banned from the largest and most authoritative Wipeout community for doing what I do best -- telling the truth -- which amounted to telling the noobs, most of whom I'd never in the course of my HUNDREDS of hours of Wipeout gameplay never met once online in competition, to practice and/or put an end to their gum flapping.

That for me is the bottom line. You want to be pro, have fun, whatever -- put the time in and quit yer moanin'.

The fact is, I find it to be rather disturbing how willing game developers are to pander to those that simply don't have what it takes to reach mastery in their games. If mastery isn't your goal, then fine -- it might be goal of others, and they'll probably do it regardless of their options. As I mentioned, it won't stop the noob from complaining, because a neat constant is that pro players generally remain pro -- they have the talent, creativity and drive to push their skills well beyond that of the human player population regardless of their circumstances. Ya gotta respect that.

No one hit kills? No problem. No prone? No problem. Bunnyhopping nerfed? No problem -- the accomplished player will likely still own you.


See above. The majority of players are noobs. Your description fits neatly into the expected Bell-like curve of noobs versus accomplished players -- doesn't mean the majority is correct, but it often turns out that way when it comes to devs offering updates to their games because they often listen to the plaintiff wailing of the noob majority.

"Now watch this drive." -- George W. Bush

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23V18K40XV0

Flashback_Jack

I see. I don't believe that not moving for a second or two is camping, but I understand the point. Of course I also don't believe that constantly moving is sniping either, but again I understand where you're coming from.



While I certainly agree with the sentiment, it does not make a disinterest in exploitations any less valid. Dropshotting, bunnyhopping, quickscoping, etc. all fall into the category of exploitations. They're in the game because a feature was put in the game to add to it, but they are the "side effect" of the feature and not the intention.

I don't mind games being accessible to all, but the way I was raised if there was something I couldn't do well I either worked to get better or didn't do it, and I do strongly dislike the idea of making things easier for the inclusivity factor. (see "No child left behind")

I also find that games are pushing further toward the easily bored, twitch gamer and it leaves the patient gamer with hard choices to make.

Valid point

Again, all I'm hearing is "It's not a bad or broken feature, you're just a noob." Which is pretty much the only defense I ever hear from people who use generally-frowned-upon tactics. And then they whine when the playing field gets leveled a bit.

But whatever. Brink has no prone, no overpowered sniper rifles, very few OHK's, and just generally looks to be the most balanced and "fair" FPS...ever, possibly. So I have faith that it will be much less frustrating than, say, CoD or Halo or Killzone.

That's probably because for the most part that's what he's saying.

Now I still contend that "prone" isn't really a frowned upon tactic throughout FPS gaming. I'll give you drop shotting, but again that would go away if developers simply changed how prone happens.

I also don't believe that most sniper rifles, even when they can manage a OHK to the head or chest are anywhere near OP, although the very same attempt to make the games more accesible to all players is pushing SRs closer to that line. Range adjustments, bullet drop, and a need to lead moving targets have all been swept under the rug in most games so anyone can pick up and use an SR. They are still very weak at close range, have slow reloads, suffer a good deal of wobble, and in most games can be beat my a guy with an unscoped AR, SMG, or LMG, as well as, in the case of CoD, the pistol of a guy you just dropped into last stand.

And "fair" is a debatable concept because while it may be fair to all those that play with SMGs and shotguns, it may not be fair to those normally using bolt action rifles and other tools.

Bad snipers(campers) are those people who move the very edge of the maps and manage a few kills. Precisely what SD seeks to eliminate.

Good snipers keep moving and providing intel and overwatch for their team.

Also the forum has yet come to a consensus on the definition of camping but I like my explanation.




Good story and example. Also I am one of those aspiring accomplished players,

My last post came off a little strong. I apologize if I offended anybody. I just really dislike camping. I don't really mind drop-shotting, well, the concept of drop-shotting anyway, but in execution it is somewhat broken. Especially when coupled with lag. Sort of like how Commando Pro was only sort of broken, but when combined with lag became just ridiculous.

Sure. While the idea of prone seems good and well, as Mad Hatter here mentions, the execution is broken. Great idea, poorly used. IF camping in a game like Brink was not as much, prone would be good. But just as Shinigami says, Brink will be based on alot of camping; therefore, prone may not be such a smart idea. Although, I personally wouldn't mind having it in, but many others may.

Not at all.

I understand the dislike for "camping" within certain parameters, and the parameters you noted seem reasonible. I like the added play style within reason, I think slow gaming is just as exciting and entertaining as fast gaming.

My friends and I have been known to play three man sniper matches where the majority of the thrill comes from the hunt. Obviously that doesn't work the same in full out MP games, but having one or two guys that play it that way has never bothered me.

The guys that sit in a dark corner (or a light corner) with their crosshair trained on the door, usually wielding a shotgun, while not working to cover teammates are the campers that I find annoying/problematic, but team based objectives should remove that.

I think prone would add a bit to Brink, particularly with the amount of cover and height in the level design. If it was implemented in a way that stopped the outright dropshot and dolphin dive, I would be much happier with it in, but will still play either way. Keep in mind though, each major objective has a time limit so "campouts" end in a loss, not long waiting games. I think SD already has a "solution" to maintaining a pace in play without the lack of prone.

Your definition of camping is pretty much exactly the same as mine. And I couldn't agree more, except that I think prone would be a relatively useless feature, even if it was balanced properly. Brink just doesn't seem like a game where you want to stay still for very long anyway.

Prone and still don't always go together

http://www.bing.com/Dictionary/search?q=define+prone&qpvt=prone+definition&FORM=DTPDIA

But yes, in a non-literal other-worldly sense, being able to quickly go prone in a dive can be extremely useful.
In the case of Brink however, though it can be argued that having the prone feature could be used in other ways or that the game is fast paced,
the sliding feature takes the place of going prone. In a sense, you do go prone, and in the same sense it can be use the same way a standing or running prone can be used.
its just the fact that its not a maintained prone, you slide and get back up.

And that is because going prone is for:
1.Staying still and camping
2.laying down in a dark area so you cant be seen while camping

Indeed. I do agree with you all the way.
Ive played a lot of Call of Duty Black Ops lately and it doesn't seem to be much of a problem at long range, its short range that does it.
When a player goes prone while standing and you are using a shotgun, most of the time theres no kill to be had for you.

I do hate camping, but there is a huge difference between holding down a position and camping. ( I know you know this, just saying)
And this is where prone gets abused. Big time.

Brink's sliding feature is a great way to get away from this. I'm all for that.




- :flame:

No one is going to fault you for guarding a command post that is right near the action because it is useful. However, camping in a corner that isn't near an objective and you are racking up kills will earn you some choice words.......:bunny:

Well actually I was referring to crawling/rolling while prone (taking the face down position definition), but even dropping to prone to get behind cover has use. I don't consider sliding as part of the same movement set as prone, at least not for my purposes, as sliding goes to quickly and forces the pop up at the end.



Damn campers have gone and ruined everything for us slow movers. Taking away all our tools.

Billy Mayes here with this great new tool. Are you tired of campers killing you because you move slow or get stuck on objects? Not anymore! Behold the new S.M.A.R.T. system! It allows you to get to places faster, go around campers by climbing the terrain, and allows you to get over those small objects that magically stop you! If you pre-order now, we'll throw in Brink and a pre-order pack of your choice! Buy S.M.A.R.T. today!

Prone is a technique that needs to have a practical use in the game. Look at all the games that don't have prone - and yet they are fine. Look at all the games that do have prone - and yet it is poorly implemented/unbalanced in some.
Prone needs to be appropriate for the game, and in Brink's case, it is not.
Prone is a tactic for hiding, sneaking, moving quietly, and sometimes for steadying aim.
Brink is about moving and shooting - in this aspect, prone just doesn't fit in the equation.
Prone works for some shooters, for Brink, it doesn't seem like it would.