This question has been bugging me for a while now. I read somewhere before that when something is prophesy in the Elder Scrolls, that it must happen. E.g. it was prophesy that Nerevar would return and strike down Dagoth Ur. What i have always wondered is if you can break prophecy. For instance, what if someone went up to Nerevar before he/she had dealt with Ur, and simply chopped off his/her head and burnt his/her body to a crisp? Would the Incarnate survive because he/she had not fulfilled the prophecy? Or can things that are prophesy be changed?

Thanks.

the fulfing of the prophecy is the canon result, however yes, the Nerevarine is not immortal and could have been killed previous to it happening, hence breaking the prophecy, in fact that why i believe that when you kill a plot essential character it shows the message about breaking the prophecy, you are in essence stepping out of the proper story.

Also, elder scrolls can be changed (look at the end of the oblivion thieves guild quest) so i presume if the canon result was not reached, the world and prophecies would have adjusted so that they were true again, without anyone realising (except maybe the killer), who knows, maybe they already did but nobody realised :unsure:


Thats just me though.

Wait... wouln't a prophecy mean some kind of look in the future... so that would mean... that breaking the prophecy just wouldn't happen. Right?... it just simply wouldn't happen.... hence the prophecy... cuz if someone wants to destroy some kind of evil.... but falls of the staircase and breaks it neck during the progress... their probably wouldn't be a prophecy about that person right?

"Each event is preceded by prophecy, but without the hero, there is no event." - Zurin Arctus

I think that sentence alone tells a lot about how prophecies work. Prophecies describe an event in the future, but the event depends entirely on the actions of the hero. Prophecies may be the initial inspiration to the hero (or someone to send/call a hero), but when the hero arrives, everything depends on him.

maybe the prophecy applied to all the failled Nerevarine's, but when they died or failed suddenly it refered to someone knew.....and i suppose that loop would have just kept going until someone survived....

Right, so basically a Prophecy is a prediction, rather than something set in stone?

nothing is set in stone until it actually happens, and even then it may be edited/erased by various means.

Ah thanks. I was under the impression that everything in TES was set in stone and was simply being "played out" by the people in it. I like that the world is more chaotic and changeable than i thought it was.

The fact that the elder scrolls don't report what happened during the dragon break is suggestive.

http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/complete_dragonbroke.shtml

The Elder Scrolls bind all possible outcomes of all possible outcomes together, and give everything a set reaction. Heros (I think all of them have been Shezzarines, but that is speculation) have free will because they (us) are 'outside' the system

Well, if he fail he can't be the Nerevarine, can he? In my understanding, if you don't fulfill the prophecy (i.e. kill Ur) someone else will.

I'm pretty sure I've read that what different people read different futures from the Elder Scrolls (The actual items in the lore, not the games.) because the future is not yet set in stone, and only after the event has happened will the Elder Scrolls all tell the same thing to everyone, or something to that effect. I wonder if it's a coincedence that this seems to parallel how in the games, things will play out somewhat differently for different players depending on the choices they make in the game, but in later games, at least the main story of the game generally becomes more or less set in stone (Daggerfall is an exception, due to the whole Dragoning Breaking thing going on.)

As to what would happen if the Nerevarine was killed, I suspect the player character might simply join the ranks of the failed incarnates, after all, they are all people who tried to fulfill the prophecies, and seemed like they might, but failed before they could. While one might interpret this as simply because they were not actually the Nerevarine, but just appeared to fulfill some of the aspects of the pophecy (After all, if your prophecy includes things like "being born on a certain day to uncertain parents, there will likely be many people who fulfill that part while not being able to get the other parts.) and failed because they were not actually Nerevar reincarnated, one might also think of this as being that you are not actually the Nerevarine until you have successfully fulfilled all the aspects of the prophecy, in other words, you are, as one character says in the game, one who "Might become the Nerevarine", if things work this way, then if the Nerevarine fails, someone else who fits the signs could arise to take his place. If you're going to have a prophecy, it would seem to make a bit more sense if it leaves some margin for error like this, after all, having Morrowind potentially becoming doomed to the fate Dagoth Ur has planned for it because the player character missed a step, fell off a cliff and broke his neck seems like a bit of an impractical set up, though judging from a lot of prophecies in fantasy, one gets the impression that practicality is not high on the list of the priorities of the gods or destiny.

Of course, that's all guessing on my part, prophecies can be confusing things if you think about them too hard.

Eventually SOMEBODY would manage to defeat Dagoth Ur, hero or not. Without the meddling of a Hero, the event shown in an Elder Scroll will always come to pass UNLESS it becomes common knowlege.

Right, so the Elder Scrolls detail every possible outcome, and will only tell the same thing once the event has been concluded?

If we're looking at it in terms of the Nevarine, then i guess there's that margin for error because of the failed incarnates. But what about, if someone had stepped in and saved Uriel Septim, or Martin had been killed by a freak boulder or something like that (that is, if they could get past the essential NPC knock-out system!). There were no "failed Champion of Cyrodills" so if the PC or Martin had been killed...i guess its all just speculation in terms of possible outcomes. Interest speculation nonetheless.



Its funny, i never really thought about it untill recently and it can get pretty confusing if you look too deeply into it beyond "things are set to happen".

My guess is that considering Akatosh's investment in the main quest, his Jills probably stepped in and repaired the timeline every time someone important to the grand scheme of things was killed... meaning they'd get up a few moments later, brush themselves off, and continue on as if nothing had happened.

Anyway, that's my justification.

I figured that he was fighting for his existence. the Base of his cult had been destroyed in Kvatch, and no god can exist without worship. The cyrodiilic Form of Aka was not just protecting the world, but himself.

AKA, Reload ?

so... Akatosh kicked Dagon's you know what so Akatosh can continue being worshiped and continue existing? deity of time had to tend to himself?

The same could be said for any other god though. Aka is more widely worshipped than most other Gods too.
I think that his main motive was to fulfill Martin's wish, to honor his deal with the Empire, and kick Dagon's ass again too while he's at it.

It seems to me that if Aka was that bothered about his worshipper count and saving himself, he would have just helped out at the beginning of the crisis (unless he was sleeping...).

How I look at it, is that in Oblivion's case Martin couldn't die, until he had fulfilled his role in the prophecy, there's no 'what if he fell off a cliff', because that just wouldn't happen.
Unless the prophecy was vague and didn't necassarily include him, in which case someone else would have found another way to close the gates.

I just think that the Elder Scrolls holds the information to ALL possible outcomes. When the thing actually happens the other possible outcomes are not possible and therefore they get deleted.
For example:
Think the Morrowind scenario.
Let us lower the possible alternatives to 3 in the Elder Scrolls:
Elder Scroll nr. 1. The Nerevarine comes just like he did in the lore and saves Vvardenfell (possible Morrowind, possible the world) from Mr. Dagoth.
Elder Scroll nr. 2. The Nerevarine fails. He didnt show up or he was killed by corprus. Mr. Dagoth conquers Vvardenfell and possible Morrowind and also possible the world. His territory is filled by Dreamers and corprus monsters.
Elder Scroll nr. 3. Dagoth finds Keening and Sunder and begins to jump in happiness around the heart while holding them in his hands. He begins to hit the heart with the artefacts because of some stupid reason and then he realises that he just destroyed the heart! The cave falls down on his face, killing Dagoth and saving Vvardenfell from the storms. The Tribunal says they did it but sooner or later they die since they arent gods anymore.

If it happens according to the lore this happens in the Elder Scrolls:
Elder Scroll nr. 1. The Nerevarine comes just like he did in the lore and saves Vvardenfell (possible Morrowind, possible the world) from Mr. Dagoth.
Elder Scroll nr. 2. The Nerevarine fails. He didnt show up or he was killed by corprus. Mr. Dagoth conquers Vvardenfell and possible Morrowind and also possible the world. His territory is filled by Dreamers and corprus monsters.
Elder Scroll nr. 3. Dagoth finds Keening and Sunder and begins to jump in happiness around the heart while holding them in his hands. He begins to hit the heart with the artefacts because of some stupid reason and then he realises that he just destroyed the heart! The cave falls down on his face, killing Dagoth and saving Vvardenfell from the storms. The Tribunal says they did it but sooner or later they die since they arent gods anymore.


If you just think through each possible conclusion then one of them will happen.

I think the quintessential question of the Oblivion main story is whether thwarting the Dagon invasion and the rise of Mankar Camoran was due to the will of man or the will of the gods. The easy part of the answer is both; the hard part of the answer is comprehending what that means.

(This is also why Oblivion's main quest actually was a good story, despite the naysayers).

Could it be that it's both because the gods need human "hands" to accomplish tasks? It reminds me of the old question of the nature of the Aedra -- what are they in reality as compared to the official doctrine? How sapient or individual are the Aedra? (We already know the Daedra are both.) A thought-provoking post, though. I'm probably off in my interpretation.

Prophecy is instruction for the player, and if this is by anyone's will fulfilled, it is by mine and mine alone.

Everyone else is there for the ride.

i think it means mortals have a survival instinct and were fighting to survive? it means some mortals are displeased with how Nirn and or Mundus is and want it to be more like the real of the Prince they worship? it means Princes, Nines and all others of deities bunch are bored to tears of floating about their realm and like to play with mortals, put on a show of power to amuse and wow the mortals? it means Princes, Nines and all others of deities bunch entice mortals to do this or that, either of those "that" being this: "do this so your worshiped Prince will be free to rampage your realm" , then one turns to other and says "i'l invade, but you send me back to my realm" ?

As they say in Babylon 5, a prophecy is a guess that comes true. When it doesn't, it's a metaphor. Now in TES prophecies are more than just guesswork but I like the principle.