I'm sure this has been beat to death on here, but i'm interested in the psijic order and psijic endeavor. What can you tell me about them?

http://www.imperial-library.info/gttpo/index.shtml might be able to help you out a bit. If not continue to search The Imperial Library, UESPWiki, and these forums for further information. You'll find most everything that you need.

You make it so easy.

http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/vehk_teaching.shtml#4

thats all very interesting. this brings me two new questions. It seems that the psijic endeaver VS the goals of the psijic order mirror the schism between the Altmer and the ancestors of the Dunmer(chimer). It also seems culturally the chimer favored lorkhan and sithis, while the altmer favored anu and stasis. It is also stated that the psijic order, despite being more altmeri than dunmeri in nature, also has a different viewpoint from the common altmer religion/mystical tradition.

Can anyone explain or provide a source of information where I can better understand the common altmer concept of the universe and the gods, compared to that of psijic order? and furthermore compared velothi viewpoint?

PS: and for the sake of confirming what i think i already understand: both (tradition)altmer and dumner traditionally worshipped their ancestors. Both believe in the monomyth. Both have credited lorkhan with the creation of the mundus, and the mystical groups of both are seeking some sort of ascension, or enlightenment from their current state of being on mundus. now correct me if im wrong but, differences as it would seem are that the altmer believe the aedra to be their ancestors, and that Anu(perfect stasis) is the ideal form of existence, so therefore lorkhan destroyed the perfect stasis creating a flawed universe. They wish to some how revert to that form of Anu existance. On the contrary the velothi dunmer believe the daedra are their ancestors(or dont they?), and that lorkhan created the mundus as a step in freeing everything from that Anu stasis so mortals could trancend their aedric ancestors.

Can this be simplified to that th Chimer lean more towards Sithis/Padhome ideals, while Altmer lean more towards Anu/Stasis ideals?

I can't help but feel like i'm missing something, because the tribunal temple seems to have a whole seperate type of believes from the original velothi dunmer, and i still havent figured out how the psijic order's beliefs differ from mainstream altmer. and above i mentiond how they dunmer may view the daedra as their ancestor spirits instead of the aedra? is that a symbolic viewpoint of theirs or is that simply a misconception/simplification brought on by the Tribunal Temple for the laymen?

You answered your "Chimer lean more towards Sithis/Padhome" question before even asking it: yes. Boethiah, the "inspiration" for the Exodus so to speak, helped instill the idea of Daedric ancestry. Hence, the Tribunal had crap to do with it; they probably hindered this way of thinking more than anything. See http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/anticipations.shtml.

Concerning the Psijics, http://www.imperial-library.info/gttpo/.

Hmmn, I'm forgetting some of this stuff. Without reviewing any of it, here goes.

First of all, do not equate the Order with the Altmer. They do not hold mainstream beliefs, being the esoteric dissenters who went and found their own island. Second, the Dunmer do not worship the daedra as their ancestors. The Velothi Chimer were Altmer and spoke Aldmeri, after all, and Daedra is Aldmeri for "not our ancestors." The Velothi exodus was a repudiation of the the Altmeri worldview and culture, embracing the good and bad daedra and the validity of Lorkhan as a spirit for worship. This made them, to the Altmer, devil worshipers among other things. Vivec called it the 'savagery required to separate us from the Altmer.'

And yes, there is a difference between Tribunal dogma and the Velothi movement, even though the latter honors the former and 'Velothi' can describe either Chimer or Dunmer. I believe, however, that both follow the Psijic Endeavor, which is tied to the significance and study of Lorkhan, though Lorkhan is not a large part of the dogma of either. He is significant, however:

We pledge ourselves to you, the Frame-maker, the Scarab: a world for us to love you in, a cloak of dirt to cherish. Betrayed by your ancestors when you were not even looking. Hoary Magnus and his ventured opinions cannot sway the understated, a trick worthy of the always satisfied. A short season of towers, a rundown absolution, and what is this, what is this but fire under your eyelid?

Shift ye in your skin, I say to the Trinimac-eaters. Pitch your voices into the color of bruise. Divide ye like your enemies, in Houses, and lay your laws in set sequence from the center, again like the enemy Corners of the House of Troubles, and see yourself thence as timber, or mud-slats, or sheets of resin. Then do not divide, for yet is the stride of SITHISIT quicker than the rush of enemies, and He will sunder the whole for the sake of a shingle.

For we go different, and in thunder. SITHISIT is the start of all true Houses, built against stasis and lazy slaves. Turn from your predilections, broken like false maps. Move and move like this. Quicken against false fathers, mothers left in corners weeping for glass and rain. Stasis asks merely for nothing, for itself, which is nothing, as you were in the eight everlasting imperfections.
http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/lessons.shtml

Edit: I should mention that that is attributed to Boethiah, said to the Velothi, and it shows the Chimeri preference for Lorkhan and Sithis.


Source of Chaos:

Source of Chaos

This particular passage was found by Nohept dir'Kamal among the papers of the Tharnatos, mostly talks about Dark Brotherhood (and Morag Tong).

"...appropriately, Padomay is just as ineffable an entity as Anu. This is how the Psijiic Order treats him, at least. His original (Aldmeris? Ehlnofex?) name is PSJJJJ, which is and was meant to be unpronounceable. The Order was founded and organized to divine Padomay's eternal and ever-changing mystery. "Sithis" is a corruption of "Psijii" which, in turn, was a derivation of the high concept PSJJJJ. Sithis was born when a nihilist sect of the already doom-ridden Chimeri merged (under Mephala’s tutelage) Daedric elements with the Inexpressible Action that was Padomay. In essence they began to revere Padomay's Chaos nature (as opposed to that of Anu, who is Order), and over the years degenerated into a thuggish mystery-cult which wanted to "murder the world." The Dark Brotherhood was born in these times-- which, in Morrowind, is known as the Morag Tong. Some of the higher-level Morag Tong maintain that they predate the Dark Brotherhood (more evidence of this later). That, in fact, they are an organization devoted to playing out the eternal interplay of Nir. Assassination, they say, is the purest celebration of joy or living. Whatever the case, the Padomay of Morrowind (and isolated Dark Brotherhood sects) is not the Padomay of Artaeum...."

Or our better stronger ancestors.

Aw crap, I was wondering about that. So they did call them ancestors. But how, exactly? Symbolically? A heretical take on the Aldmeri creation myth?

thanks everyone, very informative. That was an interesting read as well.

but i still have one simple question(im probably just confused from reading so much so quick :-p )

what is the difference in the core beliefs/practices of the traditional altmer, the velothi dunmer, and the psijic order? they all seem very similar... all three seem to worship their own ancestors, they all appose necromancy, the psijics exhault the PSJJJJ which is personified as Sithis to the dunmer, heck sotha sil himself was a psijic.. the only thing that truely seems different in these practices is that the dunmer worship the certain daedra, the altmer worship certain aedra, and the psijics seem not to worship either as they believe both are very very old ancestor spirits. And if the psijics believe that than they must have a different concept of the monomyth.. unless they believe human life ascended from both aedra and daedra, which kind of brings us back to the tribunal temple's claim as the daedra being ancestors??? ahhh

regardless of above.. it seems like the main difference is the goal they want to achieve. again correct me if i'm wrong and feel free to add on to if i'm over simplifying: Altmer want to join the aedra, or return to Anu..or become immortals themselves?, Dunmer want to return to Padhome/Sithis.. or trancsend the whole Anu/Padhome thing all together? and psijics... wait the psijics want what again!?

ugh.. lol

Seems to be:

Traditional Altmer see Lorkhan, get of Padomay and Sithis, as the devil. The Aedra are the ancestors, the Daedra are not. They want to transcend the trap of the mortal plane by following their king, Auri-El (Akatosh), who showed them how- but no one has had much luck or has shown much of an inclination to follow, as we don't hear much more about it. Instead they play defense, seeking to halt the degradation of the trap through construction of Towers.

The Order shares this concern for the waning of the divine into the profane but has a different worldview that reveres the role of Padomay as well as Anu. Note that PSJJ also refers to the state of the universe at the instant of the interplay, or perhaps the instant before. (The state of the universe before it was sundered is either wholly Anu's stasis or wholly Padomay's void, depending on your preference.) They hatched the Endeavor and inspired Veloth. Seemingly the middle ground. I don't know if they regard the Daedra as ancestors, but I'm guessing not.

Saint Veloth rejects the Aedra in favor of the Daedra. His views are those of the Order taken much further. The Tribunal retains the respect for the Daedra but not their dogma. The Endeavor is still a focus of Vivec, but this is not public dogma. It is contained in his Sermons and other more esoteric writings. Lorkhan is still revered, for he is synonymous with Sithis and Padomay the key to achieving the Endeavor.

All worship their ancestors, as this is nearly universal to Nirn.

The Aldmer want to return to the state of existence before Nirn. The Endeavor doesn't want the old status quo, it wants a new one, that does not necessitate the destruction of the world, as it may extend to an individual or certain group. The Dwemer sought this with Numidium- a return to PSJJ.

thats very interesting, thanks paw-prints. But this leaves me with two more questions, was the dwemer attempt to return to PSJJJJ an attempt to return to accomplish what the Altmer were trying to accomplish, or was it an attempt to accomplish what the Endeavor accomplishes?

And also, know that i know what the point of the endeavor is, what exactly is the Endeavor itself and what does one require to perform it?

And one last question, is CHIM the name of the state of being of one who has successfully performed the Endeavor? And what is that state of being supposed to be like? Is it achieving immortality or a higher form of godhead? or is it more similar to a mystical "merging with The One" kind of thing?

The Altmer wanted to restore the old order, rejecting the profane and returning to the divine. The Dwemer, on the other hand, didn't much care for their creator spirits and their alignments. They wanted to understand the universe on their own terms, and they saw different levels of existence, each lower plane derived from a more unified higher one. That's called subgradient and they didn't like being beneath anything, so they tried to increase their own stature through Numidium. They wanted to build the divine from the depths of the profane, creating a level of subgradient that contained them and was above everything else. PSJJJ is the highest you can go.

The Endeavor is similar, but the Velothi would have had very different reasons and views on it. They saw the creation of the world as a gift from Lorkhan, the cosmic father who died so that his children could rise from his ashes to become something greater. CHIM is a method of achieving the Endeavor, the one Vivec writes about. It's like mantling the Godhead.

So Altmer vs. Dwemer... the Altmer would be happy with the undoing of the mortal plane alone. Since everything that exists came from a larger thing that split apart, the Mundus going backwards would just be a chaotic field of pure spirits and opposite energies. If the world was to return to the divine, everyone would be gods again. The Dwemer didn't want to go in reverse, they just wanted to take the subgradient they had and raise it up to a level higher than that of the creator gods. Basically wholesale manipulation of reality.

Ok, so the the chimer/dunmer wanted to perform CHIM or the endeavor so they could transcend the mortal plane to a level of existance beyond the gods concidering it a gift from lorkhan, and yet they called the dwemer evil blasphemers because they wanted to.... transcend the mortal to a level of existance beyond the gods by making use of the heart of lorkhan?? am i missing something or is this just supposed to reflect the typical irony in religious disputes?

and if i may ask for more detail on the altmeri restore "the divine" or undoing mundus... how exactly did they plan on doing so and what was it that their hero-god auriel did for them?

and one more question if anyones up for it or if it can even be answered... how did all of these ideas originate?

Recall that people in the video game don't have such a understanding of Dwemer religious/philosophical thought than we do; they really didn't fully understand what they were doing. Just that they didn't really revere anything on a religious standpoint.

Concerning the Altmer, they wanted to remove Talos from the mythic since he fortified existence since he mantled Aka/Shor. (forgot exactly how he did it; shall review the great TWM's post on the matter to fully refresh myself with the info).

Forgot the other things they wanted to do. Shall find the MK post.

http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=796134&view=findpost&p=11571869

"To kill Man is to reach Heaven, from where we came before the Doom Drum's iniquity. When we accomplish this, we can escape the mockery and long shame of the Material Prison.

"To achieve this goal, we must:

"1) Erase the Upstart Talos from the mythic. His presence fortifies the Wheel of the Convention, and binds our souls to this plane.

"2) Remove Man not just from the world, but from the Pattern of Possibility, so that the very idea of them can be forgotten and thereby never again repeated.

"3) With Talos and the Sons of Talos removed, the Dragon will become ours to unbind. The world of mortals will be over. The Dragon will uncoil his hold on the stagnancy of linear time and move as Free Serpent again, moving through the Aether without measure or burden, spilling time along the innumerable roads we once travelled. And with that we will regain the mantle of the imperishable spirit."

Merry Christmas

edit: How do you mean originate?

so then the altmer want(ed) to commit genocide on all non-elven people, and some how(how?) destroy Talos? And Talos, was Tiber Septim an aspect of Talos, or did Tiber Septim ascend to godhead and become Talos? because this being an ancient altmer myth would hint that Talos existed before Tiber Septim the man right?

and by originate I ment what inspired these believes, for example: boethia inspired Veloth who was already influence by the psijics, but who inspired the psijics and the altmer before them? are we to assume they have had this knowledge since the nirn was created?

And these are all various interpretations of the universe according to mer, how do the men interpret these things? and why historically did the altmer see the men races as such an enemy, when the imperials themselves seem to worship the same aedra as gods, and concider the same daedra as demons? Is not Auriel just an aspect of Akatosh the god of the empire, the offspring of Anu? Are not the imperials descendents of the same et'ada?

Screw genocide: they wanted to remove the very IDEA of them so they could never be created. Talos is and isn't Tiber Septim. No offense to you of course, but I really dont' want to type all the stuff concerning that so http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?act=findpost&hl=&pid=12648434in a second.



All races were present at the Dawn; creation myths are subjective perspectives of what happened in the Dawn. I assume the Psijics learned what they learned the same way we learn anything.


Simple answer: Mer like Aka, Man like Shor. Shor is "the spirit behind all human undertaking" until I presume Elven influences come into play in Imperial religion, though Nords still revere Shor. The Elves and Men have been fighting since the Dawn as teh Ehlnofey and Wandering Ehlnofey. Just those ol' 11 Forces (1 and -1) doin' what they do best. Here, Auriel led the Elhnofey and Shor led the Wanderers.

Getting back to the question about what "Daedra" means. At first we were told that the Dunmer coined the word Daedra and that it meant "Our better stronger ancestors," but since that time we have only heard from the Altmer perspective and the translation that it means "not our ancestors." So we have two possibilities, either the Dunmer meaning and original coining was retconned or the altmer and dunmer have different definitions for the same word.

There isn't any real proof but I think that the Chimer did in fact develop the word for the Daedra when Veloth was visited by Boethiah, but later the Altmer said screw those guys and rejected the original meaning of the word Daedra.

can you sight an in game book(preferably morrowind but any will do) where it says daedra means "better stronger ancestors"?

http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/forum.shtml

You can get it straight from there.

http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/aedra_daedra.shtml
http://www.imperial-library.info/tsomw/tb_14.shtml

But from there too by implication.

I don't know about stronger and better, but this book calls them ancestors: http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/anticipations.shtml

And reading that gives me another question. That Tribunal book claims that the Anticipation recognized the divinity of the Tribunal, but the bad Daedra did not and it was this that divided them into the two groups, Anticipations and House of Troubles. Isn't this sort of revisionist, attributing a key part of Velothian dogma to the Tribunal in order to swell their importance? And Frankie, you were looking for difference between the Dunmer and Chimer.

Edit: Aha. This came from Savant's Notes on Vvardenfell, I assume these answers were taken from in-game dialog?


There you have best and greater, and also a clue that when the Dunmer mean ancestor, they don't necessarily refer to direct lineage. Other races worship the ancestors because their forefathers were the gods who fractured into the mortal races. Perhaps the Dunmer don't claim that the Daedra gave birth to them and had a hand in the creation of the mortal world.

And going way back, yes, all mortals share an appreciably similar lineage, they just had difference experiences of the Dawn. They say the same events from different angles and backed different spirits. Either this was a coincidence that Mer and Reguards lined up on one side with Men and Dunmer on the other, or it was the act of lining up that made them men and mer.

Auriel is Akatosh, but there isn't much of a conflict between the two because the worship of one grew out of the other much later. There IS, however, a conflict between Akatosh and the Nord's Alduin, who seems almost completely different. He even inhabits a separate scheme of time unique to Nordic culture and has more in common with the Redguard Satakal. The many equivalents of the gods is a puzzle you just have to run with.

i read your entiomorph's thread, one thing that confuses me is, since when were Akatosh and Lorkhan the same? I thought Padhome took form as Sithis who begot Lorkhan.. while Anu took form as Anuiel who begot Akatosh? so then in laymens terms is it safe to say than that Septim was an aspect of Talos who is an aspect of Lorkhan?

EDIT: I just looked at "the rebels return".. i see how Akatosh and Lorkhan are the same, as space and time are the same... of course i didnt know that TES lore was subject to Einsteins theories of time and space but.. whatever haha... although one random question is, despite them being united they are seperate personalities and take on different physical forms when manifested on mundus, so before existance could/did these two entities exist as seperate personalities? is my above statement of their origins correct?

And back to my (not so)original question, this explains the nature of Talos a little better but how on earth did the altmer propose undoing his/its existances and how would this undo the existance of the "man" races and how would that result in returning existance to the state of Anu?

The two who are the same are always the opposites. that's what ties them together. In the beginning it's like a neutral molecule that inevitably divides into positively and negatively charged halves.

Enantiomorph is really a term used in science to indicate mirror images of molecules. So, they are mirror images, which repeats across all of existence especially those called first-born.

Still a neat thread by the way.

Which makes my physics example look silly now. I told you I was forgetting stuff.

very interesting stuff..

so then the altmer proposed to remove "the rebel" from the equation? did they believe this process had begon with Trinimac's removal of Lorkhan's heart? because that seems like a very failed attemped, since it essential became the very force holding mundus together.

and heres a funny observation: why is space(lorkhan) the product of change, and time(akatosh) the product of stasis?? you'd think space without time would be static, and time without space would be ever changing.. yet the opposite seems to be true here.