Psychic Phenomena as Science

Post » Mon Jul 12, 2010 6:05 am

So a few of you might remember the thread I made a long time ago about a video Dean Radin made about "psi" and why it hasn't really been picked up by "mainstream science". I got a lot of interesting responses from a lot of people, lots of criticism, and in general, lots of good discussion.

So I decided to investigate the issue further, and found a rather interesting article here: http://www.psy.unipd.it/~tressold/cmssimple/uploads/includes/MetaFreeResp010.pdf

Basically, the first part is a study which shows the evidence for psi.

The second part is a criticism.

The third part, is a rebuttal to that criticism.

From first part:

It may also be possible that the evidence obtained in the present
study has a strong bearing on the debate about much-discussed
declines in ganzfeld research, and the alleged unreliability of psi
effects. Although we found evidence of a weak decline across five
ganzfeld databases, we add that appearances can be deceiving:
There is good evidence that the decline is “in decline,” with effects
showing an upward trend (see Figures 2 and 3). Furthermore, after
we removed four outlier studies, there was a nonsignificant decline.
In addition, with our study, the two significant databases
(total N  45), and only one small nonsignificant database (N 
14), as well as, more generally, only one dubious meta-anolysis out
of five (see Figure 3), the two negative assumptions made against
ganzfeld research (i.e., that psi effects are in decline and are
unreliable) are undermined. Whichever of our anolyses is preferred,
it appears that 34 years of ganzfeld research has more often
than not produced a communications anomaly worth investigating
further, as evidenced by the cumulative record: 74 (72.5%; N 
102) had positive z scores, even though only 27 (26.5%) of the 102
studies were independently significant (  .05). If 26.5% seems
inconclusive or ambiguous, then in spite of, or due to, the statistical
evidence, parapsychologists may still have some way to go to
convince skeptics...

In closing, we emphasize how important it is to free up this
line of investigation from unwarranted skepticism and hasty
judgments, so that these communication anomalies might be
treated and investigated in like manner with other psychological
functions.


From second:
My first attempt to critique parapsychological research (Hyman,
1957) motivated me to scrutinize actual experimental reports
rather than general summaries. Such scrutiny takes time and effort.
I was surprised to discover that parapsychologists were more
statistically and methodologically sophisticated than critics had
portrayed them. However, I also found disturbing examples of
methodological oversights along with otherwise admirable controls.
Perhaps the most puzzling experience came from my hours
devoted to a detailed inspection of the experiments in the original
ganzfeld database (Hyman, 1985). Even today I find it difficult to
understand how parapsychologists could have tolerated so many
obvious flaws in what was claimed to be their most successful
database. I found the autoganzfeld experiments greatly improved
in methodology over the original ganzfeld experiments. On the
other hand, my careful anolysis of the actual data from these
experiments uncovered peculiar patterns that could possibly point
to some subtle biases (Hyman, 1994).

To me the most bothersome aspect of parapsychological research
during the century or so of its existence is its persistent
inconsistency. During the past 50 years, I have become acquainted
with many parapsychologists who agreed with my assessment.
They were understandably distressed by this state of affairs. I have
already referred to some contemporary parapsychologists who
acknowledge the elusiveness and inconsistency of parapsychological
evidence (Atmanspacher & Jahn, 2003; Bierman, 2001;
Kennedy, 2001, 2003; Lucadou, 2001).


From third:
Hyman (2010) is convinced of parapsychology’s “persistent
inconsistency” (p. 489), but we maintain that psi is anything but
inconsistent. We argue that the meta-anolytic results do count for
something. It is of paramount importance not to dismiss statistical
anomalies as nothing more than numerical oddities; we would
hope that on the strength of the peculiarity of the findings in and
of themselves, the scientifically inclined will be sufficiently intrigued
by the curious nature of psi to want to find out for
themselves what that anomaly might actually be.

On that point, Hyman (2010) claims the following:
"Parapsychology will succeed in its quest to demonstrate its communications
anomaly only when it can generate specific hypotheses that
predict patterns of outcomes that are consistent, lawful, and independently
replicable by parapsychologists and others. So far, careful
assessment of the parapsychological literature does not justify optimism
on this matter." (p. 490)

In response, we believe had addressed these issues, and argue for a
shift in mind-set: Instead of parapsychologists’ giving the null hypothesis
a chance (Alcock, 2003), skeptics should give the alternative
hypothesis a chance. In spite of the relatively limited pool of literature,
we argue that consistency has been demonstrated in the data and that
there is good evidence of replication by a range of investigators.



You guys are my favorite group of internet skeptics and believers, with a wide range of opinions, so I hope you find this interesting!
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Hannah Barnard
 
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Post » Mon Jul 12, 2010 9:26 am

Parapsychology will succeed in its quest to demonstrate its communications
anomaly only when it can generate specific hypotheses that
predict patterns of outcomes that are consistent, lawful, and independently
replicable by parapsychologists and others. So far, careful
assessment of the parapsychological literature does not justify optimism
on this matter.
There you have it.
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Gemma Archer
 
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Post » Mon Jul 12, 2010 6:20 pm

Indeed. You can't argue with results, and scientific method has produced a damn lot of them, including the science behind the technologies that allow us to have this conversation.

Keywords being 'consistent' and 'independently replicable'.
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He got the
 
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Post » Mon Jul 12, 2010 1:32 pm

Even the CIA has used psychic seekers, or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remote_viewing

Considering how credible most of the people involved in the project are (a great deal of info on the experiments has now been declassified and many 'viewers' have written books or discussed the process openly), I find it hard to remain skeptical about this.
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Rob Davidson
 
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Post » Mon Jul 12, 2010 5:27 pm

There you have it.


The third article claims that they have succeeded in doing so.
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victoria johnstone
 
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Post » Mon Jul 12, 2010 10:45 am

You guys are my favorite group of internet skeptics and believers, with a wide range of opinions, so I hope you find this interesting!


Opening a thread on this forum about the paranormal is essentially like opening a thread about religion on an atheist forum. Essentially lots of embarrassing flaming goes on towards believers, by the non-believers. I just hope you know what you got yourself into with this topic, and lord help you if you are a believer of the paranormal.

I'm off to run away from the inevitable flamewar now...
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Adriana Lenzo
 
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Post » Mon Jul 12, 2010 3:54 pm

Oh, and if that weren't already apparent, I'm with Penn & Teller on this issue.

It is of paramount importance not to dismiss statistical anomalies as nothing more than numerical oddities;


What kind of pseudo-scientific nonsense is that?! The whole reason for doing real scientific studies is that statistical anomalies are NOT evidence of anything!

we would hope that on the strength of the peculiarity of the findings in and of themselves, the scientifically inclined will be sufficiently intrigued by the curious nature of psi to want to find out for themselves what that anomaly might actually be.


So they went into it knowing what they wanted to find, and when they failed they claim that the statistical anomalies, which by definition are NOT proof of anything, in fact prove what they wanted to find all along?

In closing, we emphasize how important it is to free up this line of investigation from unwarranted skepticism and hasty judgments, so that these communication anomalies might be treated and investigated in like manner with other psychological functions.


Okay, these nutjobs are starting to tick me off. "unwarranted skepticism"? So now we're not supposed to be skeptical and just believe everything they make up without questioning it?

Instead of parapsychologists’ giving the null hypothesis a chance (Alcock, 2003), skeptics should give the alternative hypothesis a chance


As if we weren't already convinced that this was all a bunch of humbug, here they are putting the last nail in their own coffin by stating that we apparently should be using inverted burden of evidence.
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Sanctum
 
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Post » Mon Jul 12, 2010 1:35 pm

remote viewing:
This phenomenon first became a celebrated subject after parapsychologists Harold Puthoff and Russell Targ published a scientific paper which reported on experiments in which a remote location had been chosen, an experimenter visited there, and a subject recorded his or her psychic impressions of the spot.
Their results seemed to prove that a “remote sensing” faculty did exist.
Subsequently, properly controlled tests were done by several other researchers, eliminating several sources of cuing and extraneous evidence that had been present in the tests.
These new tests produced negative results. The data of Puthoff and Targ were reexamined by the other researchers, and it was found that their students were able to solve the locations without use of any psychic powers, using only the clues that had inadvertently been included in the Puthoff and Targ transcripts.

- James Randi


I do not personally believe in remote viewing because it is againt every sort of logic in my book. How on earth are we supposed to use our minds to see hidden things? It doesn't make any logical sense. Magic doesn't exist, no matter how much you want it to.
I would be very careful how you research this, you could easily fall victim to psudoscience. Sometimes people want something to be true so badly that they'll look for anything that might prove it so, and then ignore the evidence against it. Or worse, they already know what they want and they construct experiments that will produce those results.

You should also read a book on cold reading because many practitioners of cold reading will be able to get the same results as those people who supossedly are "the real deal" - one notable example is Derren Brown, youtube him.

I would also urge you to watch Penn and Teller's episode on remote viewing.

It's true that the CIA did research remote viewing, but they stopped because it ain't working and it's the same reason why they don't use it anymore too.


...
But "The Men who Stare at Goats" is still a funny movie
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Becky Palmer
 
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Post » Mon Jul 12, 2010 9:31 am

I dunno... Penn and Teller aren't the do all end all of right and wrong in my opinion. I still believe in remote viewing.... The people who were involved (as in the viewers themselves) strike me as pretty credible people without a lot of motivation for lying about it. Many of them have never written books or used their involvment for financial gain (unlike a couple of illusionists who get paid to produce a debunk show).
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Chantel Hopkin
 
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Post » Mon Jul 12, 2010 5:48 pm

Psychic abilities and the area of "Psi" research will always be under some form of skepticism. However there are certain things that cannot be ignored which have been mentioned in this post. I for one have found it weird that on some occasions i've talked about something and later that something has happened, occurred, and/or been realized in some form or another. Example would be a discussion I had on another forum and talked about a Simpson's episode where Springfield elementary was segregated into boys and girls learning areas. Strangely this episode was played during the 8:00 pm est showing when I had not even looked to see what was going to be broadcast on that day. Usual rule of thumb for me is if football is on Fox13 and doesn't end before 6:00 pm EST it will almost always go into OT being shown over their regular scheduled programming.

Another less predictable event was when I was gaming playing Borderlands and started fighting those Drifters "Freakin ripoffs of striders in HL2 if you ask me" and thought "Hey it would be sweet if one of them fired an acid ball at me and I did a flip in my car to avoid it." Well about 1 min later this strider was attacking me and I went to get away from it and missed the ramp as I was boosting. I hit the ramp to such a degree I did a barrel roll and as I did that a glob of acid passed me making me go "Dang now I wish I had fraps rolling for that one."
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Tha King o Geekz
 
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Post » Mon Jul 12, 2010 10:50 am

I dunno... Penn and Teller aren't the do all end all of right and wrong in my opinion. I still believe in remote viewing.... The people who were involved (as in the viewers themselves) strike me as pretty credible people without a lot of motivation for lying about it. Many of them have never written books or used their involvment for financial gain (unlike a couple of illusionists who get paid to produce a debunk show).


Wait, you accept something without the slightest bit of evidence just because the selfish motives of the individuals in questions are not known to you?
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Ashley Tamen
 
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Post » Mon Jul 12, 2010 7:19 pm

Psychic abilities and the area of "Psi" research will always be under some form of skepticism. However there are certain things that cannot be ignored which have been mentioned in this post. I for one have found it weird that on some occasions i've talked about something and later that something has happened, occurred, and/or been realized in some form or another. Example would be a discussion I had on another forum and talked about a Simpson's episode where Springfield elementary was segregated into boys and girls learning areas. Strangely this episode was played during the 8:00 pm est showing when I had not even looked to see what was going to be broadcast on that day. Usual rule of thumb for me is if football is on Fox13 and doesn't end before 6:00 pm EST it will almost always go into OT being shown over their regular scheduled programming.

Another less predictable event was when I was gaming playing Borderlands and started fighting those Drifters "Freakin ripoffs of striders in HL2 if you ask me" and thought "Hey it would be sweet if one of them fired an acid ball at me and I did a flip in my car to avoid it." Well about 1 min later this strider was attacking me and I went to get away from it and missed the ramp as I was boosting. I hit the ramp to such a degree I did a barrel roll and as I did that a glob of acid passed me making me go "Dang now I wish I had fraps rolling for that one."


And in both those cases, there could no possibly be any explanation for them outside of the paranormal?

Four words; Confirmation bias.
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Rhysa Hughes
 
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Post » Mon Jul 12, 2010 3:40 pm

Opening a thread on this forum about the paranormal is essentially like opening a thread about religion on an atheist forum. Essentially lots of embarrassing flaming goes on towards believers, by the non-believers. I just hope you know what you got yourself into with this topic, and lord help you if you are a believer of the paranormal.

I'm off to run away from the inevitable flamewar now...


Yeah, I've started threads on this topic in the past :)

So they went into it knowing what they wanted to find, and when they failed they claim that the statistical anomalies, which by definition are NOT proof of anything, in fact prove what they wanted to find all along?


Um... what? They're saying that, when you take into account all of the studies that have been put forward, they DO in fact show statistics which were above the acceptable range of deviation. So it's not just that the numbers leaned in their favor.... it's that the numbers leaned in their favor far beyond that typical chance would have allowed.

Okay, these nutjobs are starting to tick me off. "unwarranted skepticism"? So now we're not supposed to be skeptical and just believe everything they make up without questioning it?


No, they are saying that don't make a decision before you look at the data. Many people look at the data "knowing" that psi isn't real, then look at the data and go, "well obviously it's STILL not real." Instead, there is data showing that it tends toward an explanation of psi, but people still think they "know" what is and isn't happening. so they come up with reasons for why the data can't be what it is.

As if we weren't already convinced that this was all a bunch of humbug, here they are putting the last nail in their own coffin by stating that we apparently should be using inverted burden of evidence.


No, it's more like they are saying what I said above: just look at the data.


I do not personally believe in remote viewing because it is againt every sort of logic in my book. How on earth are we supposed to use our minds to see hidden things? It doesn't make any logical sense. Magic doesn't exist, no matter how much you want it to.
I would be very careful how you research this, you could easily fall victim to psudoscience. Sometimes people want something to be true so badly that they'll look for anything that might prove it so, and then ignore the evidence against it. Or worse, they already know what they want and they construct experiments that will produce those results.

You should also read a book on cold reading because many practitioners of cold reading will be able to get the same results as those people who supossedly are "the real deal" - one notable example is Derren Brown, youtube him.

I would also urge you to watch Penn and Teller's episode on remote viewing.


Yes, I've seen Penn and Teller's episode. Yes, I'm very familiar with how people can fool themselves. Yes, I am very familiar with how pseudo-science preys on peoples' desires to believe. It's why I'm checking everything with everyone else. I'm not a scientist or statistician. So when people throw numbers at me, saying it proves something, I don't know whether they are telling the truth or not. So I take it to people who don't have some stake in the data to appraise it from another point of view.

Likewise, I take criticisms from many of the skeptics' camps, and take it to the people who claim that this stuff has been scientifically proven. They claim that there have been scientific studies done, that were free of procedural errors, that were free of statistical anolysis errors, which STILL show how it is still working. That's where this study came from. There's the data, right there. There's the methodology, right there.

Apparently, the guy who wrote the critical article (second one) has been a long time critic of these studies. And each time there has been a valid criticism put forward, the parapsychologists design new experiments. He even admitted that their new experiments fixed problems that old experiments had. Then he turns around and claims that the data "isn't even really that great" even though the data is above what would normally be likely.

It's true that the CIA did research remote viewing, but they stopped because it ain't working and it's the same reason why they don't use it anymore too.


http://science.howstuffworks.com/science-vs-myth/extrasensory-perceptions/uk-psychic.htm
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Jani Eayon
 
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Post » Mon Jul 12, 2010 1:56 pm

Um... what? They're saying that, when you take into account all of the studies that have been put forward, they DO in fact show statistics which were above the acceptable range of deviation. So it's not just that the numbers leaned in their favor.... it's that the numbers leaned in their favor far beyond that typical chance would have allowed.


No, that's not what the article YOU quote said. They mentioned specifically statistical anomalies, not general statistical trends.

No, they are saying that don't make a decision before you look at the data. Many people look at the data "knowing" that psi isn't real, then look at the data and go, "well obviously it's STILL not real." Instead, there is data showing that it tends toward an explanation of psi, but people still think they "know" what is and isn't happening. so they come up with reasons for why the data can't be what it is.


That's a fraudulent dismissal of any real criticism leveled at such bogus studies. What we have is people demanding real tangible evidence before they believe any such claims. What people on your side of the fence want is for people to believe something without any proof whatsoever, and will throw a big sulk whenever their own, often ridiculous, "experiments" aren't taken as proof of anything, because either the methodology is flawed or the conclusions are based on at best very loose understanding of scientific theory.

No, it's more like they are saying what I said above: just look at the data.


I directly quoted the article where it said that they thought it should be up to the skeptics to disprove those bogus claims, you're making up excuses for the glaring flaws in their reasoning.
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Thema
 
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Post » Mon Jul 12, 2010 7:50 pm

I dunno... Penn and Teller aren't the do all end all of right and wrong in my opinion. I still believe in remote viewing.... The people who were involved (as in the viewers themselves) strike me as pretty credible people without a lot of motivation for lying about it. Many of them have never written books or used their involvment for financial gain (unlike a couple of illusionists who get paid to produce a debunk show).


That still doesn't make them right. I can come of as a credible person while still be lying. And Penn and Teller are not the only ones, there are thousands of experts out there who really know what they're talking about and can come up with conclusive scientific evidence. But ignoring them outright just because they get paid to do a tv-show is stupid.
And there is a lot of remote viewers who gain fame and money from this kind of stuff. It's become a whole industry. So there's plenty of motivation. Of course there are still people out there who really believe what they do and try to help people. They're not bad people. But they are the minority.

But people are so easily swayed into believing things after they see a trick or two. A person should have an open mind of course, but one should weight and examine both parts, research it and use logic reasoning before deciding upon a conclusion. And one should always be open to the idea that that conclusion is the wrong one.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/science-vs-myth/extrasensory-perceptions/uk-psychic.htm


K government research
In 2001–2002 the UK Government performed a study on 18 untrained subjects. The experimenters recorded the E and H fields around the viewer to see if the cerebral activity of successful viewings caused higher-than-usual fields to be emitted from the brain. However, the experimenters didn't find any evidence that the viewers had accessed the targets in the data collection phase, the project was abandoned, and the data was never anolyzed since no RV activity had happened. Some "narrow-band" E-fields were detected during the viewings, but they were attributed to external causes. The experiment was disclosed in 2007 after a Freedom of Information request.[21]

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Neko Jenny
 
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Post » Mon Jul 12, 2010 2:08 pm

That still doesn't make them right. I can come of as a credible person while still be lying. And Penn and Teller are not the only ones, there are thousands of experts out there who really know what they're talking about and can come up with conclusive scientific evidence. But ignoring them outright just because they get paid to do a tv-show is stupid.
And there is a lot of remote viewers who gain fame and money from this kind of stuff. It's become a whole industry. So there's plenty of motivation. Of course there are still people out there who really believe what they do and try to help people. They're not bad people. But they are the minority.

But people are so easily swayed into believing things after they see a trick or two. A person should have an open mind of course, but one should weight and examine both parts, research it and use logic reasoning before deciding upon a conclusion. And one should always be open to the idea that that conclusion is the wrong one.


So what happens when the data does not support the popular conclusion? (namely, that "psi" and related "powers" do not exist? Even if the data says that's not entirely true?)
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Sweet Blighty
 
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Post » Mon Jul 12, 2010 7:12 pm

Opening a thread on this forum about the paranormal is essentially like opening a thread about religion on an atheist forum. Essentially lots of embarrassing flaming goes on towards believers, by the non-believers. I just hope you know what you got yourself into with this topic, and lord help you if you are a believer of the paranormal.


Amazingly, we at BGSFans don't have that problem.
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Mike Plumley
 
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Post » Mon Jul 12, 2010 3:46 pm

No, that's not what the article YOU quote said. They mentioned specifically statistical anomalies, not general statistical trends.


Anomalies which are too great and too consistent to just dismiss as errors, mistakes, or statistical outliers.

That's a fraudulent dismissal of any real criticism leveled at such bogus studies. What we have is people demanding real tangible evidence before they believe any such claims.


The evidence is there in the studies.

What people on your side of the fence want is for people to believe something without any proof whatsoever,


It's not "my side of the fence." I'm not on any side of the fence. I'm just trying to find the truth. I go to a psi forum, and everyone flames me for being an irrational skeptic. I come to this forum, and people flame me as being an irrational believer. I have not made a decision one way or the other. One group of scientists and followers say one thing, and say they are completely justified, another group says another thing, and they say they are completely justified.

I'm just trying to figure who's full of it.

and will throw a big sulk whenever their own, often ridiculous, "experiments" aren't taken as proof of anything, because either the methodology is flawed


It's pretty clear what methodology is used, how it is not flawed, and even the second criticism admitted that they removed flaws for which some past experiments were criticized. Perhaps you might be thinking of some experiments done in the 60's, but since then, critiques of methods have been used to prevent procedural errors.

or the conclusions are based on at best very loose understanding of scientific theory.


And what "scientific theory" do they have a "loose understanding" of?

They've done carefully designed experiments, and are able to produce results that are not within the bounds of what is normally accounted for by chance. So "something else" is at work. Parapsychologists have labeled that "something else", the "variable" which we don't know what it is, but which affects these experiments, as "psi".

I directly quoted the article where it said that they thought it should be up to the skeptics to disprove those bogus claims, you're making up excuses for the glaring flaws in their reasoning.


Again: what they are saying is people come in with what they already believe to be true, and even when they are shown data contrary to what they think they know, they still come up with some excuse for why the data can't be what it is. They cite flawed procedure even when there is none. They cite faulty understanding, even when the method they used is clearly laid out and the very same method used in every other region of the scientific field.
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Britney Lopez
 
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Post » Mon Jul 12, 2010 9:34 am

So what happens when the data does not support the popular conclusion? (namely, that "psi" and related "powers" do not exist? Even if the data says that's not entirely true?)


You mean like how an experiment can fail to disprove something?

It's not "my side of the fence." I'm not on any side of the fence. I'm just trying to find the truth. I go to a psi forum, and everyone flames me for being an irrational skeptic. I come to this forum, and people flame me as being an irrational believer. I have not made a decision one way or the other. One group of scientists and followers say one thing, and say they are completely justified, another group says another thing, and they say they are completely justified.

I'm just trying to figure who's full of it.


If neither of them can come up with a conclusion, what makes you think you can :)

I guess this is kinda like proving the existence of God. We can discuss back and forth, but we will never come to a conclusion. There will always be something that we don't know, always an empty space. And that's the beauty of it all, there's always something to research, something to learn. And perhaps it's important for human psychology that there is a possibility for something mystical and magical to exist.
In the essence of it all, science is not about proving or disproving. Science is a tool we use to get a better understanding of the universe we live in. But we only know so little so far. Science is not the search for truth.
So this topic will always be up to debate. So let me say this, if Remote Viewing does exist, modern science cannot properly detect and record it, and what we're really arguing over is table scraps.
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Chris Guerin
 
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Post » Mon Jul 12, 2010 2:40 pm

You mean like how an experiment can fail to disprove something?


No.

I mean when according to the odds you have a certain chance to do something, and, over the course of dozens of carefully designed experiments, humans are able to consistently and repeatably score above what standard chance would allow.

The current model says, "at a certain point, people will score within a certain range of successes and failures given probability." But these experiments, as well as others, show that people score consistently MORE than what is allowed for by chance. This contradicts the popular conclusion.
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Brooke Turner
 
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Post » Mon Jul 12, 2010 8:07 pm

No.

I mean when according to the odds you have a certain chance to do something, and, over the course of dozens of carefully designed experiments, humans are able to consistently and repeatably score above what standard chance would allow.

The current model says, "at a certain point, people will score within a certain range of successes and failures given probability." But these experiments, as well as others, show that people score consistently MORE than what is allowed for by chance. This contradicts the popular conclusion.


It's intriguing, but it still doesn't mean it's psychic abilities. It could just be educated guesswork.
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!beef
 
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Post » Mon Jul 12, 2010 6:41 am

I guess this is kinda like proving the existence of (not up for discussion...). We can discuss back and forth, but we will never come to a conclusion. There will always be something that we don't know, always an empty space. And that's the beauty of it all, there's always something to research, something to learn. And perhaps it's important for human psychology that there is a possibility for something mystical and magical to exist.
In the essence of it all, science is not about proving or disproving. Science is a tool we use to get a better understanding of the universe we live in. But we only know so little so far. Science is not the search for truth.
So this topic will always be up to debate. So let me say this, if Remote Viewing does exist, modern science cannot properly detect and record it, and what we're really arguing over is table scraps.


No, I don't think it's like that at all. If it's possible, it should be able to be shown through experimentation.

All the "skeptics" say this and that about flawed procedure, lack of evidence, blah blah blah. But "believers" put forward things like this, and it makes you wonder. Makes me wonder, anyway.

It's intriguing, but it still doesn't mean it's psychic abilities. It could just be educated guesswork.


"Psi" is a term for a variable. It could be a physical process that we know of, but that we didn't know operated in humans. It could be a physical process yet to be discovered. Skeptics like to accuse parapsychologists of appealing to metaphysics, but that's not what they are doing. There is "something" which pushes the results past what would be expected according to probability.

"Psi" is the term for that "something."
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jess hughes
 
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Post » Mon Jul 12, 2010 1:24 pm

The paper linked to is a meta-anolysis of various Ganzfeld experiments (and slight variations thereof). The Ganzfeld experiment is a highly controversial experiment to begin with, which has not produced any definitively accepted results to date, and which is also highly, highly susceptible to errors in methodology. Additionally, meta-anolyses are typically pretty useless to start with, and if they incorporate studies with systematic errors then those errors tend to just get amplified resulting in a final anolysis that's worse than useless. Basically this "study" is nothing more than wishful thinking and handwaving.
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laila hassan
 
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Post » Mon Jul 12, 2010 8:59 pm

Anomalies which are too great and too consistent to just dismiss as errors, mistakes, or statistical outliers.


You don't seem to understand what an anomaly is, and you seem to be awfully sure of that the anomalies aren't anomalies without actually having any evidence of that.

The evidence is there in the studies.


What studies? Where are all these credible scientific studies that prove that psychic phenomena exist? Where are all the millions of dollars those people have won from the over 20 major awards for given to anyone able to prove the existence of anything "paranormal"?

Show them to me.

It's not "my side of the fence." I'm not on any side of the fence. I'm just trying to find the truth. I go to a psi forum, and everyone flames me for being an irrational skeptic. I come to this forum, and people flame me as being an irrational believer. I have not made a decision one way or the other. One group of scientists and followers say one thing, and say they are completely justified, another group says another thing, and they say they are completely justified.

I'm just trying to figure who's full of it.


If that was your intent, you'd be done in time for lunch.

It's pretty clear what methodology is used, how it is not flawed, and even the second criticism admitted that they removed flaws for which some past experiments were criticized. Perhaps you might be thinking of some experiments done in the 60's, but since then, critiques of methods have been used to prevent procedural errors.


Well then, show me the money!

And by money I mean reliable studies that prove the existence of paranormal phenomena.

And what "scientific theory" do they have a "loose understanding" of?


How about falsifiability? Burden of evidence? Statistical significance of results?

They've done carefully designed experiments, and are able to produce results that are not within the bounds of what is normally accounted for by chance. So "something else" is at work. Parapsychologists have labeled that "something else", the "variable" which we don't know what it is, but which affects these experiments, as "psi".


Who are they, where are their studies publicized, and at which date did the win the JREF prize?

Again: what they are saying is people come in with what they already believe to be true, and even when they are shown data contrary to what they think they know, they still come up with some excuse for why the data can't be what it is. They cite flawed procedure even when there is none. They cite faulty understanding, even when the method they used is clearly laid out and the very same method used in every other region of the scientific field.


I'm still waiting.
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Naazhe Perezz
 
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Post » Mon Jul 12, 2010 6:30 pm

Show them to me.


Did you check the extensive list of references (includes past studies) in the article I linked in the OP?

And by money I mean reliable studies that prove the existence of paranormal phenomena.


http://vsociety.net/wiki/Parapsychology has links to research institutions as well as peer reviewed journals.

How about falsifiability?


You could repeat the experiments and show that you don't get the same results.... oh, that's right, people HAVE repeated the experiments and have gotten similar results, which this anolysis shows.

Burden of evidence?


They've done the work and shown the evidence.

Statistical significance of results?


Discussed in the link in the OP.

Who are they, where are their studies publicized, and at which date did the win the JREF prize?


Oh, I'm sorry, I thought our standards for evidence were SCIENTIFIC studies. I didn't think we were resorting to stage magicians for our "scientific proof".

In any case, perhaps you haven't looked as critically at Randi as you should have: http://www.dailygrail.com/features/the-myth-of-james-randis-million-dollar-challenge

The paper linked to is a meta-anolysis of various Ganzfeld experiments (and slight variations thereof). The Ganzfeld experiment is a highly controversial experiment to begin with, which has not produced any definitively accepted results to date, and which is also highly, highly susceptible to errors in methodology. Additionally, meta-anolyses are typically pretty useless to start with, and if they incorporate studies with systematic errors then those errors tend to just get amplified resulting in a final anolysis that's worse than useless. Basically this "study" is nothing more than wishful thinking and handwaving.


Perhaps the Ganzfeld is a highly controversial experiment if you were still living in 1960, before they tightened up procedures and began automating and more thoroughly randomizing the process.

Furthermore, studies with systematic errors were thrown out when doing the meta anolysis. And even when throwing out those studies, there was still significance. Even when the critic decided which studies to include, HE still got significant data so....
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Wayne Cole
 
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