Some arguments that both sides must agree one:

->The spell variation gets gimped due to no scaling. No more glpyhs, sprays, wallers, or cloaks past a certain level. Just spamming projectiles. These spell types were hyped to oblivion by Todd. So much for that.

->Crap master spells.



Thats not a strawman, thats math.

You can't factor DPS without taking in the fact that the person goes out of magicka in 8 seconds. How many potions will you spam against several high level enemies in a tomb? :facepalm: :: Thus destro doing lower DPS than any other damage skill by a significant amount.



Try to take off your enchanting cheat gear, since we were discussing base Destro as you proclaimed.

Not without high level enchanting in master difficulty.

See guys, he is actually correct. If you just took destruction magic and a few other skills, you will probably not get past 35. Mr. Donkey here has already agreed that if you leveled other skills and brought your level past that, there are problems and they should get fixed. In a way, there's really not much we can add to this thread because it simply states a fact. All we are doing is repeating what we already know, that destruction past whatever level is broken, and then arguing with those that disagree.

I think its not a stretch of the imagination that Bethesda balanced magic around not leveling past a certain point. I think that this argument is probably a better one for debate than the one the OP brings up; as I said, for the most part, he simply states a fact.

His point is if you don't use certain abilities you'll never reach level cap.

You can avoid using:
Archery (You cast spells)
Block (You dual cast)
Heavy Armor (You wear cloth)
One Handed (You cast spells)
Two Handed (You cast spells)
Smithing (You wear cloth and cast spells)
Alteration (You don't "need" to cast these)
Conjuration (Pets are for wimps)
Illusion (CC is for wimps)
Restoration (Use food and potions instead)
Enchanting (Wear what you find)
Alchemy (You can buy all your potions)
Light Armor (You wear cloth)
Lockpicking (Yes, you can actually skip locks...)
Pickpocket (Kill them if you want it)
Sneak (Hiding is for wimps)

Pretty much the only thing that is unavoidable Destruction and Speech (and only by accident)...
If you were really a "pure" Destruction, when Destruction hits 100 you won't even be level 20...
The only way your level is going up is because you're using other skills.
And if you're crying "I used other skills and now I have to use them to survive!" I have no sympathy for you.

I proved that wrong. No enchanting required.

In master difficulty? Did you kill the dragon priest with the apprentice spells or what? What it even leveled to 40 or so?


Oh and what's the name of the necklace that reduces destruction magic you found and mentioned earlier? I want to get one myself.

"Ignoring skills to keep your level low"
I have never heard such balderdash.

So you have to break the entire premise of the game in order to make destruction viable.
Yes, thats balanced.
And I am the sultana of the land of plum pudding.

Well, the issues with that is that if you just use destruction, you actually probably wont make it past level 10 or 11. I don't think that you'll be able to cast the expert level spells more than once or twice. Normally you wouldn't need them at level 10, but if you go on to do the MQ, you'll run into baddies that pretty much REQUIRE the use of said spells. Further more, that leaves you 9 perks to put into destruction MAYBE. Have fun with that one. The first 4 go into novice, apprentice, adept, and expert. Don't bother with master spells, cause you sure as hell aren't going to get to cast them.

The problem of using other skills is that very few mesh well with destruction. Light armor does exactly what for a ranged mage? 1 hand does nothing either if you are attacking from range. Only 1 other skill tree could possibly help destruction do more damage, and that's temporary buffs from alchemy. Enchanting could help with longevity, but I think there is a consensus that trivializing the magicka bar is a bit exploity at best.

He changed his view mid-discussion. It's not something to make fun about, as that's what discussions are for (mostly)

And if you're level 10 you'll never need to use Master spells... Flamethrower will do just fine if you capped at 10. :flamethrower:

On master difficulty, expert level spells. My mana pool is actually quite low, only 450. Am level 54 or 55 atm.

I believe it was of the "of Extreme Destruction" variety, I'll find out tonight.

So what do you use against the dragon priests? Remember, they aren't scaled to your level, they are set at a very high level. And ONE will be in your way in the main quest regaurdless. Furthermore, how do you plan to defeat alduin the first time you fight him at such a low level? I don't think he's level scaled.

No the original point of this thread was basically confusion on my part. I asked how people got above +35-40 lvl on their destruction mage builds. I had no clue that people would level things they either wouldn't use or use in lieu of destruction magic. I have stated that there is a belief that other builds are much easier at levels above level 40. I subscribe to those beliefs however this thread isn't a fact thread it was a question that got answered and has evolved into people distorting arguments and going off topic.

On the topic of "Pure Destruction mage cannot level to the point Destruction magic fails anyway", I want to say that a Pure Destruction mage in my mind (and in many others I'd guess) isn't a build that uses only Destruction.

It's a build that uses only Destruction and no companions to deal damage. The "no companion" part is important because some quests force you to play alone so you have to be viable that way. At first is was "Destruction focused pure mages are weak" but in fact, it's just the builds that use Destruction as the only damaging skill that have the problem.

What does "no other damaging skill" mean?
- no one-handed/two-handed/marksman obviously
- no conjuration cause they are all damaging spells
- no illusion frenzy spells (well, the restriction is weird but only those spells are an issue)
- not spending too much time killing stuff with hand to hand

Let's say exceptions are allowed to apply poisons since it would be impossible to do it without the first "rule"


Basically, if you want to do this kind of build at level 45+ master difficulty, you only have 2 choices :
- enchanting your gear to trivialize destruction spell costs
- using only store bought/chest found gear, it "might" be viable if you got for 100 alchemy for the boost potion and weakness poison along with a big store in mp potions. Still getting to the point where you get high quality enough gear from vendors will probably be a HUGE pain.

As I said in my post Destro Haters gona Hate True fact

For me playing destro or any other build is fun and chalenging in its own way, but for you destro haters its like:

"Any build that isnt an exploited meele/archery isnt viable and fun at all. Yeah my build is exploited and isnt chanllenging its even boring but its the way to play the game"

What can I say to that So sorry for you man - svcks to be you.

Oh...um...my bad. I'll just leave then.

We don't hate Destruction, we like it and thus why there is concern regarding it's damage.

Ugh, I'm done trying to converse. Just going to hope for the best and that Destruction spells get adjusted so they scale/do more acceptable damage.

My ignore list is getting too long and this whole thing has become tiresome.

DBS you must agree that the scaling problem cripples the widely hyped spell types from Todd, aka the sprays/cloaks/glyphs.

Couldn't you use the Rose of Sanguine or something similar to summon a companion when one isn't available?

Oh no, we can't ever agree that 50 damage at level 8 might be more effective than 50 damage at level 60. We detractors/complainers just aren't clever enough to use those runes better.

Gotta love these destruction threads. The only thing those who argue in favor of the current non-scale system like to destroy is mathematics.

Non-scaling is why my spellsword dropped Ice-focued destruction magic (fully perked) in favor of a second blade later in the game. Draugr Deathlords totally do-not-care if you are throwing icicles at them. It is a shame. If it were properly implemented, then the way I was able to play in the early game would be viable later in the game. Ice spells to slow them down for my sword- no scaling? no function.

At this point, you might as well level enchanting/smithing/alchemy to 100, craft the perfect weapon and heavy armor set, equip Lydia with it and call yourself a Pure Destruction mage

The main point is really that : if Destruction is a viable school, you should be able to play the game using only Destruction as a damage dealing source at the core of all. It works in master only if you reduce spell costs to nearly nothing, which has all the issues mentioned already which is why it's not really a good solution.

I dont see a problem with they`re scaling but I like to place more than 1 glyph :toughninja:

I dont see a problem with the number and difference of spells at least we have 3 types of spells (frost/fire/shock) that do 3 different thing and they have different uses like bolt,spray,bolt aoe,massive aoe,force lightning :hubbahubba: After all bows have one type of attack ( shooting an arrow all the time ) and meele have only one attack (altought 3-4 different weapons types) with some variation like slash,double slash,horizontal and kill cam.

I think the different types of spells (spray, bolt, rune, and what not) are a very good idea, I for one, just wish that you could get a master level rune, or adept level spray spell. Why this wasn't included boggles the mind.

You actually are just talking about destruction only, you see. But even then, you're wrong. Kinda depends on how much mana you have I suppose. With only unenchanted destruction heavy gear you can reduce costs to around 4.5% or original cost, our about 25m dual casted incinerates. Will give exact numbers tonight. I have 450 or 470 mana can't remember, and I could have a loot more cause I have a lot of HP for a mage.


See this is the kind of restrictions you guys have been arguing against destruction all along, yet more proof that YES YOU REALLY REALLY ARE talking about just using destruction.


Nope hes dead at my feet with less than 1/4 my mana used.

Nope hes undead so he is EXTREMELY dead. 3 incinerates if its the mob that I'm thinking. If the one i'm thinking is the ones with the dragon voice that wear horned helmets with the two-handers, those are 4 incinerates. It all depends sometimes something that looks similar turns out to be a mini-boss.


Shoot them in the face.


Before I leveled enchanting my dual-casted firebolts used almost the same amount of mana as my incinerates do now. Yes magicka regen svcks, destruction does not.

The problem is at high levels basically everything but the bolt aoe spells are pretty useless. There really does need to be higher level versions of some of the lower level spells. They don't really need to scale in damage with skill level but there needs to be a way to get a Flames-like spell that does more than 12 dps.