[WIPz] NoM 3.0

Necessities 2009!

[This is thread #2. The first thread can be found http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=1052325. This OP has not been updated to reflect the newest developments yet.]

From what started as some collaborative brainstorming in coming up with integrative updates for NoM, it looks like we've gathered some momentum for what may be NoM 3.0 (pending response and authorization from Wrye, so we might call it Putative NoM 3.0 -- PNoM!). Discussion has been taking place in this thread and, before, http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=1040665&st=20&gopid=15161683.

A number of things are on the drawing board, among them some pretty big and fundamental changes, including: incorporating standardizing animal-part food ingredients from other major mods (or providing a Wrye Mash replacer file for converting their food refs into their NoM 3.0 counterparts); introducing more recipes; making the sleep scripts more reliable (or rewriting from scratch); changing the hunger tracking methodology away from the existing scheduled-meals methodology to a gradual point-based system akin to some other RPGs (roguelike games like ADOM, for example); allowing for on-demand eating and drinking; and other things. Priority will be on maintaining or broadening its appeal, retaining/respecting its effective status as an unofficial standard, and maintaining compatibility with other NoM-compatible mods. We're still in the discussion stage figuring out exactly what we want to do and how far we want to go, and so invite comment and proposals.

Wrye is the maintainer of NoM, and seems to be incommunicado for the time being, so, to be clear, we have not received his permission, and, unless he is absent for an extended time (in which we assume legacy permissions), our efforts here will be subjected to his approval. Whatever we get together, we will likely release under his aegis if that is his preference (for continuity and centrality of maintenance -- we do not want to make things more complicated than they already are).


The Drawing-Board:

(Newest additions or changes are rendered in yellow text.)


Major Upgrades, Fixes and Changes

• Point-Based Hunger/Thirst/Tiredness System: A major and fundamental change, NoM will no longer be based on on a system of scheduled mealtimes; instead, it will be moved to a point-based system for tracking hunger, thirst and exhaustion. Hunger, thirst and fatigue will accumulate a certain number of points per time interval (X points per 30 mins, for example). (This sort of system should be familiar, as mentioned above, to those who have played Roguelike games, Ultima Underworld or the like.)
  • Hunger will involve 9 states: (Neutral state), Peckish, Hungry, Famished, Extremely Hungry, Starving, Dying of Starvation and two states of satiation: Satiated and Bloated. The first stage of hunger Peckish, will not carry any penalties (and will therefore effectively replace the mealtime warning in the original NoM).
    
  • Thirst will have 6 states: (Neutral state), Thirsty, Parched, Dehydrated, Extremely Dehydrated, Dying of Thirst. As with hunger, the first stage, Thirsty, will not carry any penalties.
    
  • Tiredness will have 5 o 6 states: (Neutral state), Weary, Tired, Sleepy, Sleep-Deprived and Walking Dead (or something like that -- need better name). As with the other two necessities, the first state, Weary, will not carry a penalty.
  
  
• On-Demand Eating: To accommodate the new system, NoM will adopt the system used in Morrowind Crafting by Toccatta and Drac to allow on-demand eating (i.e., eating whenever and whatever you want by dragging the food onto your character's inventory paper-doll). Under this methodology, prepared foods are treated, game-mechanic-wise, as Alchemy items (like potions), instead of Ingredients, that induce the un-implemented Remove Curse effect (renamed to "Food") for a length of time equal to how substantial the meal is. The mod's script detects the presence of this effect, and decreases the player's hunger (or increases satiation up to the point of Bloating) acccordingly.
  
  This methodology has a number of advantages beyond the immersiveness of being able to manually choose and eat food. Most importantly, it obviates the need for specific recognition of edible items in NoM's scripts, thereby cutting down on a substantial portion of NoM's scripting framework. This makes the mod leaner, and allows unlimited compatibility for custom prepared foods; modders can now simply make a food item as a "potion," assign it the Remove Curse effect, and NoM will recognize it when consumed.
  
  To be clear, raw foods, raw meats and traditional alchemical Ingredients are to remain as Ingredients, though it is open whether some custom NoM raw foods, like fruits, might be better treated in the same way as prepared foods.
  
• Auto-Eating of Edible Ingredients as Last-Resort Measure: Strictly speaking, NoM will be a hybrid between the MC system and its original system, as it will retain automatic eating of alchemical ingredients, raw foods and some prepared foods as a last-resort measure only done at certain hunger thresholds (i.e. one must be hungrier to eat unappealing things). Thus, if you allow your character to get to advanced stages of hunger, you can still expect your character to check for and randomly consume edible ingredients and raw foods in inventory. The heftier scripting framework of the original NoM will be retained, but only used in these limited circumstances.
  
• On-Demand Drinking: Similarly, liquid consumption will be optionally on-demand. The player will be able to choose in the configuration process whether liquid is automatically consumed as before, or to manually drink in the inventory screen.
  
• Dynamic Sleeping Scripts: The character will no longer be tied to a certain sleep schedule. Fatigue will accumulate and be removed dynamically on a point-system basis. This will, by definition, eliminate the problem sometimes seen in the original NoM where sleep was not properly detected if done at certain times of the day. Want to be a nightbird? Be a nightbird.
  
• Master Data ESM for Integration and Foundation-Building: A substantial number of community-modded Ingredients and resources (such as those from TR, MC and other mods) will be combined into a master ESM, which can then serve as a basis for compatibility and standardized use. No longer will NoM-compatible mods need to have NoM object definitions and sripts included in their ESP for them to work properly; they will simply have a dependency on the master NoM ESM. This ESM will neither require nor enable NoM scripts, and will be intended for general use not limited to NoM.
  
• Easing Up of Cookbook Hunt: Many complain that it is unobvious and somewhat onerous to travel to a major city and buy a cookbook before a character can do basic cooking, such as frying meat. Now, such basic cooking tasks will require no cookbooks. We may will implement a cooking skill (see below on cooking skill as part of possible integration with some or all of MC). We also plan to add (and invite the addition of) a good number of new recipes.
  
• Improvement of Lore-Friendliness: There are currently some elements of NoM that clash with the atmosphere of the game or overwhelm it. NoM 3.0 will include attempts to gentle move it more in favor of lore-friendliness. This will include:
  • Increasing the number and variety of recipes and dishes consistent with Morrowind's local culture and available foods (as it stands, imported ingredients can become somewhat preponderant).
    
  • Changing some restaurants and food shops to be less inconsistent with their surroundings.
  
  
• Possible Tightening of Functionality with Morrowind Crafting: Such things as introducing a cooking skill and incorporation of the two mods to some degree. As with the cookbooks, cooking skill would *not* be required to cook basic food items, and would not be nearly so rigorous in requirements as other crafting skills.
  
• Upgraded Drunkenness Scripts: Still under discussion, but there are some very interesting ideas for improvements.
  
• Other Minor Improvements
  • Recognition of MCP's Gender Variable: Changing NoM to use the MCP's new gender variable instead of asking the player during NoM config.
    
  • Incorporation of MPP Fixes: For example, incorporating the MPP's fix to floating bottle scripts. (The new scripts convert them into standard bottles upon being picked up, instead of permanently leaving them as scripted but otherwise-identical variant bottles.)
    
  • Streamlining of Configuration: Either eliminating or placing in an "Advanced Configuration" section some config options and questions, along with the accompanying scripting framework. NoM 3.0 will render some config choices obsolete entirely, while others may or may not be eliminated according to community feeling on the matter. (Examples: (1) Preserving cooked foods versus preserving raw foods choice may become irrelevant, or will at least be changed to reflect a choice between delaying for on-demand consumption of food and old-style auto-consumption, with the eat-cooked-foods-first preference assumed. (2) The choice to eat Vvardenfell, Mournhold or Solstheim meat first is rendered unnecessary by the proliferation of other ingredient choices and by mods that add expansion ingredients to Vvardenfell barrels and vendors. Comment is particularly welcome on this, as we are wondering if there are players who find these config choices valuable still.

Integration of Content from Selected Mods

Import and integrate Ingredient content from a number of mods, including inviting the addition of new content and possibilities, for the purpose of use in food recipes, meat-grilling, and raw consumption where appropriate.

Limiting Principles: Not all will be added to leveled lists or even to NoM vendors (to maintain scarcity, uniqueness or lore correctness), and some selectivity will be used for ingredients that are introduced into leveled lists and elsewhere, particularly where there are duplications between mods (with priority given to those featuring custom artwork). For those where NoM does not actually add the Ingredients actively to the game, its scripts will nevertheless recognize those items for players who use them.

• Incorporation of Ingredients and alcohol from Tamriel Rebuilt. (Permission granted.)
  
• Incorporation of selected Ingredients from Morrowind Advanced: dragon meat and mouse meat -- both currently use rat meat art. (Gary Noonan/Wormgod left the MW modding community, granting full permission to use and incorporate his work, with attribution.)
  
• Incorporation of selected Ingredients from Abot's Water Life, Where Are Birds Going and other mods. (Many or most already use NoM objects, but there are some new ones.) (Author categorically grants permission for such use in readmes.)
  
• Incorporation of selected of Ingredients from such mods as Cait Farm by Cait and other authors like LadyE, released as modding resources.
  
• Possible incorporation of selected Ingredients from The Wilderness Mod. (Author unavailable. Still pending investigation as to which Ingredients and associated resources may be original to the mod; most are from LadyE and Cait. As Real Wildlife, above, may attempt to include selected elements in the new NoM or in a variant plugin.)
  
• Patch or replacer for converting selected Ingredients from the following mods to TR's standard forms: PirateLord's Creatures, Nedius's Real Wildlife, and others as may be found worthwhile.
  
• Possible incorporation of some or all of Korana's liquor/drugs/vials. (Pending investigation of her permissions.)
  
• And others, such as gem mods, other alcohols, and areas where the mod may hep greater availability of standardized and usable quality modded content.[/color]

New Content and (Possibly) Art

New recipes and prepared food items, as well as possibly other new items. As mentioned in previous section, contributions of new content, or new/upgraded art for existing items (particularly ones that still recycle Bethesda art), are invited and very welcome. Possibly Definitely changing the player hunger/thirst sounds. (I now have http://www.invision.tesalliance.org/forums/index.php?/topic/1887-minor-req-set-of-voices-for-nom-30/ seeking voice acting talent to come up with original sound files.)

Possibly incorporating new content from other mods.

Limiting Principles: There's a lot of wiggle-room here, but we want to stay lore-friendly. Books and recipes will be well-written and consistent with the overall tone in the game, and we do not want to verge into overly broad additions outside the scope of the mod's primary purpose.


Wish Lists, Pies in the Sky and Possibilities to Consider

These are highly open to comment and will be subject to community consensus, but have been suggested as possibilities.

• Using MWSE functionality for anything from a simple hunger meter to the use of it for more fundamental functions. MWSE is now widely used as a component of MGE, but we have to balance the gain in versatility or efficiency against the problem of making it unusable for non-MGE users.

Just thought of this, but any changes we need to make in regards to landscaping (if it happens, not sure, but blending around wells may be nice) - it would be best to include things from the Texture Fix for the related cells into NoM so that it does not interfere with this nice patch.

EDIT: Also, I am still a fan of G.N.O.M.E. (General Necessities of Morrowind Enhanced) for the title of the project, but that may just be me.

That's quite a list...

If you find this an odd question, just ignore it, but I wonder... At what point does it cease to be NoM and become a new entity?

It's the same list copied over from thread #1.

Answers: (1) At the point at which its practical or conceptual continuity with the base work fails to obtain, or (2) at the point at which it effectively fails to retain community support in its relationship to the base work.

Now, aside from theoretical and consensual questions, the discussion had been going on about how to go about keeping tavern kegs from being free refills in an efficient and immersive way without introducing too much complexity -- a question I am rather conservative on (less is more here, as far as I am concerned, but I have no strong opinion on it).

Just out of curiosity: in what language is "putative" a word & what does it mean?

Main Entry: pu?ta?tive
Pronunciation: \ˈpy?-tə-tiv\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Late Latin putativus, from Latin putatus, past participle of putare to think
Date: 15th century

1 : commonly accepted or supposed
2 : assumed to exist or to have existed

— pu?ta?tive?ly adverb

OT: I am really in favor of the more simplistic method of handling kegs, script wise. I think it was Tocatta who had originally posed how I think it should work.

English. It means to suppose something.

Here, by "putative" I mean that I have asked for permission from Wrye, but have received no response (he still has not been on since Oct. 15). So, it's a sort of respectful holding-off -- I expect he'll be full-on supportive, but I don't want to be too presumptious about it. It's not actually part of the final name -- just the status.

Indeed, was just giving you a hard time cause I am like that

Curious, have you updated the content of the OP at all yet to include some items from the debates, or is it still lacking in this?

yeah, I know it is the same... but it takes on a newfeel after a while of discussing the details.

Anyway, I think we've pretty well got a handle on the kegs... Everybody who's responded (including me ) except perhaps you because you haven't weighed in, seems pretty much in favor of Toccata's plan. Unless someone has something better to offer, I propose we accept that as a general outline and we can fill in the details of it when we are ready to actually develop the script. By then we may have some related issues to address as well that aren't apparent right now, but as it stands it seems good..

Really? I must have been oblivious. I was just adding on that bit to round it all out... although I could sense the possibility that I was being ribbed...

I've updated the OP some, though not for a week or so. I need to go through and summarize developments from thread #1.


Indeed. Yep, it sounds good to me. Between being wrapped in other things and not really having an opinion one way or another on the kegs thing, I figured I'd take a bye and lurk on that issue.


On another note, one thing I am curious about is how everyone feels about using the NoM_Data.esm to not only cover foods, but also to integrate Ingredients that have been hanging out there, nice but un-integrated into a reliable, standardized form that can be built upon (unless I've somehow missed that). Gem mods, for example; TR ingredients and liquors; and perhaps other liquor mods come to mind right away (there is the obvious example of Tarnsman's BEER!, which had a compatible relationship with NoM, though I haven't messed with it recently). My thoughts on it so far.

Pro: Brings them into common usability in a standardized, integrative form in an ESM that is close enough conceptually and functionally to be at least somewhat relevant. In this way, NoM can function to fill an area not really covered by any other major mod (again, that I am aware of). It implemented Sri's Alchemy, and can now move further in that direction.

Con: This takes it outside its scope, and will involve some judgment calls on what should and shouldn't be included (example: gems -- which kind? should we include variant art resources in case, say, the player refers mod A's diamonds over mod B's?). Of course, some forms of subject matter may be more appropriate than others (liquor or animal-part ingredients may be considered more purely relevant than gems or minerals), but there may be more objectionability here.

There are other things to consider, but that's a good start, I think. Thoughts?

Hmmm, perhaps some of this would be best integrated into NoM, and other aspects not (some what like you mentioned there). However, other parts may be best for other projects - for instance if you still intend to follow through with your other standardizing mod (UMIRP was the title, correct?). In this sense, the others would end up playing nice with NoM, since you mentioned using this project as the building base for those projects.

In line of graphics, I think each project would be best fit to have a standard "Low Res" and "High Res" texture as agreed upon by the community here. There could perhaps be further "Alternative" options that could house any other options not included in the other two standard sections. My idea for this is that it would cut down screen caps on PES (Low and High Res versions pictured), but then screens could be included in the download for the Alternatives in their respective folders to help players in choosing.

This would, for many people, simplify the choice, but leave some room for adjustment as well. As the "Low" and "High" would be generally agreed upon by the community, most would probably use these and decide based on how much textural impact they want on the game (those on low end systems not using fancy textures would take "Low" and most would use "High"). Those that really do want to customize will also be accommodated in this way, by having other resources (possibly all available, at least that we can get permissions for) readily available in the download without having to hunt around for them.

This may pose some heavy work and could get some bloated downloads as well, though, so may still not be the best option overall.

OK I think I've got it right this time...

I made some grill tongs for my character to use instead of having to cart that huge miner's grill thing around just to grill a steak on the campfire. http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/6656/tongsicon1.png is a render from Blender (looks a bit different ingame), and http://rapidshare.com/files/305463481/tongs.7z are the files if you want them. I'm not the world's greatest artist or anything but they're not really meant to be looked at much anyway - they spend most of their time in inventory.

Download includes mesh, texture, icon and also the original texture as a png if you want to scale it down (the dds is 1024, I guess 512 would be better given the concern about file size?). The handles texture is vanilla MW so it's not included in the dl.

Consider this a resource, you can use it for NoM if you want, or whatever.

So far, this looks like it solves about 98% of the details that I wasn't overly fond of in NoM, and I can easily live with the 2%. As it is, I've been "living with" NoM, quirks and all, because it's far better than playing without it, but have been hoping for something like this to happen for a couple of years now.

One of the biggest plusses behind this "putative" upgrade is that it may finally combine all of those unique and unstackable forms of food of the same general types which are currently added by at least half a dozen different mods. Having 3 or 4 different types of "bread" or 2 different forms of "rat meat" was always an immersion breaker to me, and this could very well remove the problem at the source by creating a standardized library of food and edible ingredient resources. The better that all of the different mods work together, the more that Tamriel feels like a functional world.

The next major improvement is changing the sudden "hunger attack" into a voluntary system for players who would prefer to select their own preferred food, while retaining an automatic fallback for anyone who doesn't want to take the time to deal with the actual eating but wants the "limitations" of hunger and thirst for "encumbrance" purposes. In my opinion, this change alone is well worth its weight in gold (possible more, because software doesn't weigh a lot). Hopefully, thirst will also prompt an automatic fallback response after some point.

The remaining technical issues over the complex relationships between kegs, alcohol sales, bartenders, thieves, and "vending machines" still needs to be resolved, but I'm fairly confident that some "credible" system will emerge.

On a side note, the extreme stage of sleep deprivation could be called "Exhausted".

Hmm.. I'm not sure how it would remove the problem at the source. For example... something which is fairly near and dear (and worrisome) to my heart:

Morrowind Crafting adds cliffracer meat, because its lack is an obvious oversight on Bethesda's part. It probably SHOULD have been there from the beginning. Apparently the Tamriel Rebuilt team also believes that it's an obvious oversight because they ALSO added cliffracer meat. Now I don't begrudge the TR team the right to add whatever ingredients they feel appropriate, but I *do* worry that I'm now going to have to start fielding troubleshooting questions when people find that they have an inventory full of cliffracer meat, but MC still won't let them make some recipe because it says they don't have any. What is the logical conclusion? MC is broken (obviously). It also happens to be the WRONG conclusion, but watchagonnado?

So along comes NoM3.0 to the rescue with a data file that integrates all these reagents and makes it so you don't have three breads and two rat meats and two cliff racer meats... but I have to ask, "How?" Making a file that makes all these ingredients available is a fine concept, and does indeed make it easier for one program to use reagents from another mod without having to re-invent the wheel so to speak. Don't get me wrong; I think it's an excellent idea. But I just don't see how it's going to resolve pre-existing issues.

To go back to the example, we now have cliffracer meat from MC as well as from TR. How does including cliffracer meat into NoM3.0 change that? Is the NoM_data.esm going to patch TR to change all of its references to cliffracer meat to mc_racer_raw, or will it patch MC to change all of its references (and scripts) to provide and expect TR_ingred_meat_cliffracer? If it doesn't do one of the two (and quite frankly, I wouldn't expect it to do either one), it really isn't going to eliminate the problem of having two identical reagents.

[edit] I also think "exhausted" is the most logical description of the last stage of sleep deprivation.

a probably stupid ask but as ML King "i have a dream" better, i have various dreams (Note 1: my english is poor, i'm not a WASP, nor i haven't frequented Oxford Univeristy or was teached by Shakespeare in person, then, dont whiny about, simply say "repeat, i don't understand" if you need; Note 3: i have immediately recognized and understood the "putative" word without any problem)

My dream with NoM is to have the mod but without all these imperial stalls and the Food Way, that i find unrealistic: will be possible to have a NoM simplified in that way?

thank you of the attention, and i wait patiently your replys

yours faithfully

A change to the way that food is handled will allow bartenders and tavern-keepers to sell food as well as drinks. This will reduce the need to have dedicated food shops. Whether or not they're actually removed is a different matter, but you're not the first one to say you're unhappy with them. If that turns out to be a common opinion, I imagine they'll be removed or at least significantly reduced. Given Gluby's feeling of "less is more", I think it likely that we'll see some simplification in this area.

I believe Tocatta is correct here, though I personally would be willing to try and come up with some method of patching things together through NoM as best as possible, especially when it comes to major mods like MC and TR (so I wouldn't say it is unreasonable to think this may happen). I also do not agree that it would be quite the feat.

Also, I agree on 'Exhausted' as well.


This was actually covered in the last WIP thread (but has not yet been updated to the OP here, Gluby is getting some things done on another project quick before compiling all the new info into the OP), and the consensus seems to fall in lines with your views (I agree, personally - for example). As it stands, something will be done with those to either 1) Make them blend into the environment better than they currently do, or 2) Remove them entirely.

One suggestion that was posed has been to replace them with some roadside merchants in various locals that have a Pack Guar with them, and a blanket laid out with some foods distributed upon it. This could facilitate the same function, but in a far less jarring way. Further, they could be set up with some basic scripting to allow them to spawn at various times (possibly be there during the day and not at night, or randomly occurring in different locations).

Technique apart (this will be another matter entirely) i will explain my thoughts about imperial food stalls, that will guide you directly to Vvardenfell politics:

1- Morrowind is a region under imperial control, with a lot of people that accept imperials and strangers only because there's an armistice treaty, but that will revolt at the first chance to do so;

2- some people accept imperials and strangers, but the way is more personal that social: example, a character may be accepted into Great Houses, but he/she may win locals trust with deeds and good manner;

then, how an Empire will establish a long way of food stalls in an insecure territory when a revolt can destroy all created work in a glimpse of moments? Of course, this will be done in a more better controlled region, not in Morrowind.

This about Vvardenfell politics: instead, personally, as adventurer, if i think to make a long journey, usually i take food from city shops, and if needed, i will make integrations with hunting and fishing, or i point directly to the nearby populated area, village, town or Ashlander camp for get some fresh food.

Hope to have been explained well, and thank you for your replies.

Who said the vendors had to remain an Imperial installation. I see no reason provided in lore that denotes the locals would not already have some established methods of trade routes going on to make something like this possible.

Further, on a political note, the Morrowind politics are more disjointed, being separated into Houses that control regions and such. These Houses hold different views towards the Imperials, so some may actually allow such a thing to be established as well.

Also, by not making these types of "establishments" statically placed, but through a more dynamic method of spawning or scripting, it will not be reliable enough to not plan ahead with your food really (unless you want to risk hunger). Further, some regions may not even have them at all.

Though, I do still agree with you that the current implementation stands for improvement.

love at remember...how much times i awakened at dawn for go to hunt between the ash plains and the marvelous, delightful grass sea of the Grazelands.

Hunting is a great break for me to usual "get quest-complete-come back and get another" as also wandering without any in mind or discover some new place never seen before.

But i'm a romantic one, and also a Pilgrim, then i wander with my smile in the face:)

Coming back to our thoughts about NoM, i agree with you Red Eye, and i hope in spawning stalls and also vendors with guar like MCA.

I would say that it is not really the Empire that is bringing these foods. But the individuals themselves. If an imperial merchant decides (or is forced in what I would guess is most cases) to move to Vvardenfell he would likely see that all the food is different. But he is an imperial and still has his taste for imperial foods.

As a merchant, he should also see that other imperials feel the same way. Business opportunity of a life time: bring imperial foods into Vvardenfell. It would start small as just some guy selling a few items, but as others saw the success they would also fall through. Eventually they would open up a shop.

What I'm getting at I guess is that they are not really food chains brought over my the Empire, but individual shops opened up by owners who thought they could make a profit in selling foreign foods to most likely foreigners.

I can understand why buildings would exist. But I would personally prefer their numbers were reduced if not gotten rid of entirely.

Kegs
I also agree with Toccatta's outline on how to deal with kegs.

Integrating other mods
I'd personally prefer that mods adding things like new minerals, gems, and liquors should not be integrated. Simply because I think it would just add too many new items to the game for me.

Re: The Grill Mesh


Cute! But are tongs archaic enough, though? They look pretty modern.

I had been wanting to find a way to replace the huge grill mesh with something a bit more subtle, though the thought had not occurred to me to completely remove it. I had sort of gotten used to using it to put the pan and pot on, but I'm by no means attached to it... how do others feel about the grill?

Re: Auto-Eating, Auto-Drinking / Name of Final State of Tiredness

The auto-eating system, at least as currently conceived and within what we've been talking about, will not be a full replacement for manual eating, but something that kicks in only if you like to hover around in hunger-penalty states. And within that auto-eating system, even if we did want to add all cooked foods to the scripts, there would be the problem of it not recognizing custom-modded foods. Not the biggest problem in the world, but it's not the route I've gotten the impression we want to take. We've been working under the rubric of abandoning the scheduled auto-eating system except (as stated) for last-resort deprivation eating.

However, for thirst, yes, the current conclusion is to have it selectable in the config whether you want auto-drinking or not -- if not, there will still be last-resort auto-drinking if you let your character get too thirsty.

Hmm... I thought about exhausted, but the word "exhausted" tends to be casually and appropriately used for milder states of fatigue. Here, we're talking about that stage of tiredness where you can fall asleep on your feet even in the midst of working -- beyond just being exhausted. Personally, I'd like to find something that gets that across. Hence the feeling around for some stronger term or label.

Re: Ingredient Consolidation and Rationalization


This is one of the hard questions for sure. In cases where an integrated ingredient had just been using recycled vanilla art, it's a no-brainer. But what happens once we've got two viable alternatives that each took labor and thought to create? Thus, the cliffracer meat example, and several others.

We seem to be faced with the following choices.

1) Default choice: Using the example of cliff racer meat, we keep both variants, in order to honor both community contributions without deprecating either, and have cliff racers drop them both. Scripts recognize both. Pro: Socially the safest; avoids excluding quality content and potentially snubbing and alienating community members who created them. Variety. Con: As said, fails to solve the problem of immersion-breaking inventory bloat (two or three different types of this or that). Also, as Toccatta said, means having variant meats that MC would not recognize (absent an update, though this part might be more easily resolved within NoM if we integrate MC's cooking framework).

2) Standardization choice: We choose one as a default, and provide a replacer to switch those of other mods over. Pro: This gives us the most immersive and functionally-consistent method, in line with the standard method of the original game of one meat per covered animal type. Avoids the slight inventory bloat of 2 or 3 different kinds of some kinds of meat and other ingredients. Con: This, of course, steps on someone's creative toes; someone's work is going to be deprecated. Hence, we run into the possibility of objectionability, bad feelings and, as said before, alienation. How would we choose? We certainly can't alienate contributors and people involved in the project, so would, for example, we prioritize their work above others? TR ingredient art would likely be deprecated for this reason.

3) Player-option Integrationist choice: As (2) above, but we provide different sets of artwork, with the same filenames, as effective replacers, leaving it in the realm of player choice. Pro: Again, consolidates ingredients and thus gives us the most immersive and functionally-consistent method, and eliminates the aforementioned inventory bloat. Since the Object definitions remain the same no matter what, this allows for consistent treatment in both NoM and MC. Dodges the socially-dangerous issue of deprecating one or the other artists' work, potentially keeping good feelings among the team and contributors. Con: A bit more complexity at the player level. The deprecation still occurs (but not at our level -- at the level of player choice). Authors may not like their resource files renamed in this way.

4) Different Cuts choice: Using the varying art resources to create variant "cuts" of meat. Cliff racer breat, cliff racer thigh. Flank steak. And so on. Pro: Integrates differing contributions in regard to a certain item in a way in which both are seen in-game, and both community contributions honored. Consequently, avoids making difficult decisions that can cause anger and alienation. Possibly (best-case scenario) takes what was inventory bloat and turns it into interesting, immsersive and worthwhile variety. Con: Again, we're back to slight inventory bloat, regardless of the creative interpretation, with two or three types of each item. Art styles may not be consistent, which may undermine the immersiveness of our workaround (to use the cliff racer meat example again, TR's is a distinctive golden chunk of meat, while MC's is a pleasant-looking steak of white, chickenish meat; both are really quite nice, but, no, they don't appear to be from the same creature).


In the end, the social considerations here may end up tying our hands, making any solution but the first one unduly contentious. But I think it would be worthwhile to see if we could come up with a better way, if it could be done.

Re: NoM Food Vendors


I'll count this as another voice in favor of toning down and better integrating food vendors. Yes, while I hope to be respectful to the original authors' artistic vision, I also wish to improve it and moderate elements that clash with the game's atmosphere. So we'll be simplifying in that regard (particularly since, as Toccatta says, the original motivation for all these food vendors was the inability to make inn- and tavern-keepers sell Ingredients without changing the NPCs themselves.


Although, to clarify, I wouldn't say "less is more" to all things -- I love variety, personally. But, yeah, here, assuming favorable consensus, I'd be inclined to tone it down a bit.


For sure, we won't be getting rid of them. MW has a lot of non-Vvardenfellers (Vvardenfellas?), and it is an Imperial province. Political considerations of resistance, collaborationists (those Hlaalu quislings!) and cultural admixture all are relevant, but I suspect it's easily lore-weaselable one way or another.

Either way, you bring up a good limiting point. It wouldn't be appropriate to eliminate all, and it would definitely be a good idea to have foreign merchants. Perhaps even one or two with horses, and zealous guards (of the caravan-guard type, not Imperial -- that didn't make sense) to keep the locals from eating the things.

Re: Kegs



Looks like we have a pretty good consensus in favor of your method, Toccatta. Sounds good to me as well.

How 'bout one of these?
* debilitated
* lethargic
* sleep-depraved

It's ironic that the word "exhausted" has been used so casually and with such frequent exaggeration that its actual definition is no longer believed by those who need to use it correctly.

However, perception is reality, and people most likely won't see the word "exhausted" as referring to an actual exhaustion of energy, so perhaps using some other word WOULD be appropriate. How about:

Feeble
Prostrate
Worn out