One of the weaknesses of Oblivion was that all the interior lighting was pre-cooked. You couldn't put out ensconced torches, braziers or even candles.

I understand that dynamic lighting (and the dynamic shadows that go along with it) can be extremely taxing on hardware, but it would be nice if at least the non-moveable light sources could be extinguished and/or relit by the player.

Stealth gameplay would be vastly improved by the simple ability to create your own shadows to hide in. Hopefully the new engine will allow for it.

I would like to see something like the lighting system in Amnesia: the dark descent, implemented in Skyrim. Say, some torches are not lit, but you can lit them with your own torch (if you have one). Or vica versa, a torch in a cave is lit, but your torch is not, and you use the lit one to lit yours. Its not really realistic that you can just lit your torches whenever you equip them, do you have matches or something? Doesn't make much sense to me. This would add a whole lot to the stealth as well. Or imagine walking down a hallway, inside a dungeon or whatever, and infront of you is just pitch black, you only have that one torch in your hand, and you have to lit all the torches on the wall in order to see more so you can proceed. Makes things a lot more interesting and immersive, no?

but you could get 100% chameleon on oblivion lol

I also thought about Amnesia. A tinderbox item might work, although if your torches are automatically lit I guess it would be redundant. A few truly dark caves would certainly be cool, although I don't think I would want true pitch black. Critics would likely complain about the game being too dark. Better to have your vision adjust (again like Amnesia, minus the going insane ).

@ ghoulsarepeopletoo: And the point is that a thief shouldn't have to rely on invisibility or chamelen. Thieves should not be required to be mages on the side.

I hope light comes from actual lanterns/torches this time instead of lame invisible light source crap.

Let's take things in order- before worrying about light sources, how about (just for once, as a novelty) having places dark enough to need light sources?

Really, someplace darker than a snowscape on a night with a full moon (Inside a cave with no light sources, no less!) so that there's a reason other than "because they're expected elements" to have torches, light spells, night-eye, and so on?

Then, once the light sources are necessary to see with and not just "for ambience" let's work on the infinitely-burning candles in abandoned caves that can't be blown out.

Dynamic shadows and lighting isn't really anything taxing on hardware nowadays. An decent engine, decently coded, can have them without any problems at all.
Something I'd like to see though is global illumination. Makes things look a lot more realistic when it comes to interior lighting and such.
Putting out lights is also a feature that really should be included, yes.

As long as one can hold a torch there shouldn't be complaints of "too dark". It's a cave, so it's dark. The idea of estinguishing torches to hide in the shadows is very cool, it was great in the Thief series and in Tes would make thieving a lot more imersive, alongside other helpful changes: no more teleporting through doors, no more psychic guards. It would be amazing to be able to hide when trespassing, if a guard hears you he should first have to open the door (you hear his footsteps and you hear the door opening so you have time to quickly find a dark corner to hide, or use your hands to put out the light. The guard (or the house owner) will search the house, your heart will stop when he passes by with the sword drawn and the torch in the other hand ( those who played Thief games know what I mean) and you have a good chance to escape if you stay hidden and wait until the danger is gone. All these are not possible unless the lights can be put out by the character.

And all those are completely moot anyway if putting the lights out makes it "sort of dim," and not actually dark. Maybe we should lock a couple of devs in a closet with the lights out for an hour or so, then let them out and ask if they get the idea?

I agree fully with that, and on true darkness. If you're in a dungeon, there are no light sources around, and the player is not carrying a torch or using nighteye, it should be dark, as in, can't see [censored] level of darkness, like what you get in Oblivion with mods like Darker Dungeons installed. If you're worried about not being able to see clearly, that's what torches are for.

Being able to put out, or even relight, static light sources would be nice too, though. It would go pretty well with stealth gameplay. To go along with this, I'd say that NPCs should put out their lights when they go to sleep at night, because most people don't sleep with their lights on in real life. And if the game is already designed to support this sort of thing, it would seem foolish to not reflect it in the game too.

I find light control very compelling as well, something I liked so much that I'm incorporating light-switches and fuse panels in all my cells so that the player always has a way of turning out the lights (or turning them on) depending on play-style. I think it adds alot to immersion and a bit of control that the player can have over their environment.

I agree 100% with Selbeth_the_winged_one's suggestion on Darker Dungeons - I really loved that mod and was very surprised when I first installed it. The change in the world when you Need light is very different (and feels different) from one that is statically lit by invisible and ambient lighting. Hopefully we will still have a CS which we can use to control that.

Miax

Completely darkness is not gonna happen... One of the first rules I was told in my education was that games never have complete darkness. Now I agree that darkness should be A LOT darker, but pitch black most likely won't happen. Oh and I also think relighting/putting out torches ect. would be very cool

A lit dungeon or cave is a convenience factor I suppose. The first few times it may be cool, but dropping torches on the ground (like Minecraft for example) to light a place becomes a real pain and feels more like a chore.

I think the concept could be used minimally to ensure that it doesn't put the player off from exploring dark places. It should send a message when you enter a cave, it should not be expected. The same could be said for well lit caves.

Luckily, the folks at Bethesda apparently didn't go to the same school you did before designing The Halls of Penumbra in Bloodmoon.

Real darkness ftw, dogmatic educational tropes out.

Complete darkness doesn't feel all that immersive IMO, each to his own.

This would have to go nahd in hand with better AI. For the NPC's to relight things that have gone out. Else you would be able to put out every light in the game and everyone would just live in darkness.

Actually, they are not pre-cooked. Oblivion's engine is using entirely dynamic lighting, as Morrowind's. Even the invisible light sources are dynamic. You can find put out the lights" mods for both games.

So the performance hit is already there, without using the benefits of a dynamic lighting system, unfortunately.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXagJn6coaQ

http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/View.php?view=mods.detail&id=1417

Concurred. It's possible to delete lights in-game using the console to the immediate effect of the darkness running back in.

It would be a simple matter of making activatable lights (not the light bubbles but like lanterns and candles) having a toggle state in addition to anything else. It should really be just that simple. Activate the candle and the light gets toggles. It's easily done by scripts, so it should be easier to implement into the lighting engine.

I think in Morrowind mod, it is attaching a script to every light source. Not that efficient. Thief is a 1998 game and its stealth mechanics are still unmatched 13 years later. Scripts can go so far, a little programming can help on Bethesda's part.

You're right about the lighting. I guess the lack of dynamic shadows on objects just makes the light sources feel a little fake (remember the shadows on that initial Oblivion reveal vid...man...). It would be great to have light that actually pulses as torches flicker - that feels alive.

And yes, the AI would have to be beefed up to compensate for it, which really needs to be done regardless. Turning on/off lights and being able to detect you by sound as well as sight are both much needed upgrades.

I recall the Oblivion mod Thieves Arsenal having arrows to put out lightsources (among other things like climbing ropes, noisemakers etc). So it would be great if candles and the like can be put out (and relit again). In a sneaky assassin style gameplay it would also be nice to see npc's react to their surroundings better; especially when the lights go out.

Assassin shoots candlewick
Guard grumbles and moves over to relight the candle, muttering about cheap crap candles from Cheydinhall.
Candle is lit again and guard sees the metal flicker of an arrowhead closeby
"Eh, what's this?!"
Asassin puts dagger in guard's back

Did you take their command, or did you ask them why there is never complete darkness?

I remember mapping out the dungeons in the original Wizardry's; now that was dark!

Darkness first; manually using the dimmer option isn't a good fix.

@Miltiades
Now if only you could set up a stationary crossbow at the proposed target point!

Yea it was actually part of a longer speech, they dont just shout random info at you you know ^^. Reason is that pitch black doesn't feel immersive. At very few instances in your life will you experience complete and utter darkness, therefore when you experience it in a game, it doesn't feel real, because you haven't experienced it in real life. Usually you will be able to make out movement around you, even if youare not able to see what is moving.

Well, I have experienced complete and utter darkness (in a cave system in Belgium) and it wasn't fun. Didn't expect things could be really pitch black. I just didn't move because of the pitfalls and had to light a tiny little candle (didn't have a flashlight because it was a LARP event). Surprised too that such a tiny flame could light up so much space though.

So translating it to a game my character wouldn't move either until I had a light (torches in Oblivion provided less light than my little candle in real life though). So yeah, we'd need some form of overall gloom level. People don't like it when it's really too dark to see anything

I thought the lighting was fine in Oblivion. Would I like an option to be able to use magic to turn off the torches to make thieving easier then sure but I think it was fine in Oblivion.