That anology doesn't cut any ice against quest markers. Presumably, the alternative to quest markers is directions given in dialogue. But directions are also the sort of thing that tell "people where exactly to go".

It is true that quest markers convey information not conveyed by directions. For instance, with quest markers, at any given moment you are not ignorant of the compass direction of the quest goal; with directions, you can easily be ignorant of this, if you are not keeping track of your location relative to the described directions. However, there's also information conveyed by directions that is not conveyed by quest markers. Directions typically involve a description of a specific path to take to the quest goal - follow this road, pass this landmark, and so on. Quest markers don't give you that information. Quest markers are silent on which path you should/can take, or what you might encounter on the way to the quest goal. So it's pretty implausible that quest markers "tell people where exactly to go" but directions do not. Rather, they both tell you that, but in different ways.



I think I completely agree with this.

L.A Noire, many Nintendo games,etc are using these kinds of things for when players get stuck, its a great feature, just like difficulty options. It allows devs to make the game harder while not making it more frustrating.

It is necessary with the AI making it so quest related NPC's wander around

My preference?

Quest Markers
Locations-When you get coordinates for a location you have never been to your map places a map marker in the general location. This will point your character in the right direction but will not pinpoint the exact location forcing you to do a little exploration once you get in the vicinity.Once your discover the actual location then the map marker updates to the exact location

NPCs - Quest markers for NPC's only highlight their home. If they don't have a home in game then it is a buidling or place where they frequent. The quest marker should not pinpoint where they are at any given time. You don't know their schedule, for example If they are outside the city gathering mushrooms at noon everyday the quest marker shouldn't tell me that. Would be cool to go to their house and wait or ask around where they might happen to be at that moment.

But a quest arrow is the "10 ton elephant in the room" and, as they say, "what is seen can not be unseen". I understand I will likely get lost from time to time, but I want the option to get lost in the game. I want it because I got lost in Morrowind, but I eventually found the way and because I found the way myself, after I beat Dagoth Ur I paused for a minute and looked back on my journey through the game and it actually felt good.

I think that Bethesda will allow the quest arrow to be toggled because there is little point in creating verbal directions otherwise, but I wish they'd officially confirm it so I don't have to sweat it any longer.

I just try and imagine the map marker in a relevant way.

I like to believe that my character isn't an idiot, so in the same sense that I should be able to follow directions, so should he. Especially if he has been living there for years. So a map marker is quite a nice way of letting me know what my character knows, considering I can't read his brain and all that.

Most people's arguments for the quest markers are just "ignore them" or "put another random quest as your active quest", but this doesnt solve anything for most quests. Sure a quest where you gotta go talk to some dude in random town A at the fighters guild you can find without the quest marker, but in oblivion lots of quests would be "I need you to goto the necromancer cave in the middle of nowhere!" and thats all they say retaining the quest. So if you turned off your quest marker, you wouldnt even know where to start looking, let alone where to go (this dungeon is in the middle of nowhere).

My Solution to this is have an npc give you a piece of paper for a quest thats out in the middle of nowhere and that piece of paper will say the directions on it "go to this town, head east from there till you hit the mountain range, go north keeping the mountains on your left side and once you hit a river, you've gone too far. The dungeon should be on the right side of the road, hidden behind some foliage", and for random quests (radiant story stuff) they can just have a set of directions pre made for almost every dungeon, and since the dungeons randomly change you will just get the directions for that specific dungeon. (sure after multiple replays different quest givers will give you the same directions as another quest giver in a previous play though, but in a previous play through you're supposed to be someone new anyways, so technically you've never heard those exact directions before, if you understand what im saying)

Also, if its a simple quest to go talk to buddy im not against a stationary quest marker that stays at this person's house or at a bar he goes to frequently, so if there is somebody moving around you might have to wait a certain time of day to find him at his house, or you can go searching for him. For quests with npcs that move from towns, you could just have like that one in oblivion that said "hes in town A on day A, town B on day b etc"

So they remove Mysticism because it's superfluous yet add a clairvoyance (an obvious Mysticism spell) as a tool for players to find their way through the game? LOL

I think you're right that quest markers don't really allow you to get lost - or feel like you're lost - in the same way that directions do. With quest markers, you've always got something that tells you "don't worry about where you currently are, if you just head in this direction, you'll get to where you need to go".

That's fair enough. But what I've been trying to point out in this thread (and in the other one on voice-acting) is that there are advantages and disadvantages for both options. And it's not clear that one of these advantages or disadvantages trumps all the others. For instance, I don't think it's clear that just because quest markers don't allow for getting lost, then this is a decisive consideration against quest markers. These things need to be weighed up against other considerations, such as having more dialogue space for story and lore; easier to implement Radiant Story; during development, coordinating the building of the world and its locations with the writing for the quests; and so on. Of course, you may think - and there is nothing wrong with this - that one of these considerations trumps all the others. Unfortunately, Bethesda have to consider a wider audience.

No. I don't like to have my hand held throughout the game. I like to have at least a sense of challenge. Just a sense.

you trying to use the "moral equivalency" argument here. this isnt a one to one ratio of disadvantage to advantage. there is only one advantage to having quest arrows. that is you know exactly where your target it as all times. thats it. thats the one and only advantage. the downsides are that you end up with tunnel vision simply following the cheese like a rat in a maze. you end up missing places that you might have discovered if you had to look around in a area. i found alot more places in morrowind by accident than in oblivion. id get someplace and find a tomb thinking that was the one i wanted. i get to the tomb and discover its not the tomb im looking for but i see another one nearby.......its the one. now i have two tombs to explore. that never happened to me in oblivion because you end up just following your quest arrow right to the correct tomb without even looking around.

this may be foreign to quest marker supporters but some of us are quite capable of following written or spoken directions and dont want to be coddled and briast fed everthing in game. im not a 6 year old, im an advlt and im quite capable of taking care of myself thank you.

ive read a couple of posts mixing up map markers and quest arrows. map markers i dont think anyone has an issue with. someone says that their family heirloom they lost is in such and such cave and they mark it on their map. that is completely believable. what is not believable is that a magic green arrow points you directly to the location of the "lost" heirloom. if someone knows that a neighbor stole their last mug of ale.............how does he know exactly which container its stored in. i sneak into the neighbors house and i should have to search not only the neighbor themselves in case they never part with the precious mug of ale but also every container until i find it. im not one of the nine divines i shouldnt know the exact location of everything

This poll is biased. You assume that because I don't like quest markers, I am either a "hardcoe" RPGer, or that I feel like they take away from the "skill" of the game, or both. This is not true. I don't like quest markers because I like following directions given to you by the NPCs. This allows me to explore freely without having some stupid red arrow constantly reminding me, "Hey! Quest HERE! Quest HERE! What are you doing?! Quest HERE!!!" Quest markers are just very obtrusive, and the whole Point of Interest thing takes away from my enjoyment of finding Ruins/Mines/Shrines by myself.

How does following directions add to the "skill" of the game? It doesn't. Any person with a brain that can comprehend speech and text can do it; therefore, it does not increase "skill." I am NOT a "hardcoe" RPGer. I play RPGs because I enjoy them. Nothing more, nothing less.

At the very least, you need to reword your second option so that it does not reflect your bias on this discussion. Better yet, add a third option that allows people to vote for an option to turn it off, because I also understand that other people do like quest and point of interest markers. It saves them the trouble of having to repeatedly open their journal and trying to follow the directions. I'm fine with that, because I can see how it would be annoying as hell. This is why there should be an option to remove quest and point of interest markers. And no, Shasow, adding one option to the game that can benefit both camps greatly does not mean this game will be loaded with 100+ frivolous options that will make beginning the game a headache. Stop being ridiculous.

Agreed with above poster, your poll is biased.

What They Said!

I don't mind a compass that shows direction. If the game is made properly, quest data should be provided by ressearch, and checking maps, etc., so I don't really need a quest marker. But if some want, or need it, I am okay with that, also.

However, I would like to make my own marks on the map.

Umm, I don't know if anyone else has noticed this or if it is just me. Quest Markers are in the gameplay demo. You can see it in the compass. It isn't quite as obtrusive as it is in OB, but you can definitely see a white and black arrow as he is heading out of the cave. It leads to the door. The moment he loads into the new area, it is pointing off to the right. Look http://www.g4tv.com/videos/53441/The-Elder-Scrolls-V-Skyrim-E3-Gameplay-Demo/ at 10:45.

Think we all know that the will be game.. this thread is primary just wanting an option to turn it off

I want pointed to the specific dungeon but not the exact location within the dungeon

If you wanted a fair poll, you simply need to make the options Yes or No. Keep your bias out of it. You'd get clearer results instead of this skewed BS.

I'm not sure what a "one to one ratio of disadvantage to advantage" is, but I'm pretty sure I never assumed that. All I said was that there are various advantages and disadvantages to both quest markers and directions, and all of these need to be weighed when deciding which way to go. Of course, you might argue that one advantage/disadvantage trumps all the others. But that's arguable. That's something we can only determine until after we've laid out all the considerations and weighed them up.

Also, I dispute that there is only one advantage to quest markers. I mentioned some in my previous post. Let me mention them again. If directions are not given in dialogue, that frees up space for other dialogue, such as more story and lore. Another advantage is with Radiant Story. If quests are conditionalised based on your character's history, the game needs an efficient way to change the information it gives you about quests. I'm not saying that this couldn't be done with directions, but it seems clear that it's much easier with quest markers.

Also, I dispute that quest markers necessarily discourage exploration. I've heard this said a number of times. I do not doubt that some people had this experience. But I never had a problem with it in Oblivion. I explored to my hearts content, despite that big green arrow.

(For these reasons, I also think it's quite churlish to suggest that one would only be in favour of quest markers if one was incapable of following directions, and needed to be coddled through everything in the game. This sort of misguided self-aggrandisemant doesn't help anybody.)

the option to turn it off would be nice.

It really depends on how Bethesda would implement locations in quests without it... When I played Morrowind, many times NPCs didn't give a general direction, but instead told me complex directions on a set of many paths, which ended leading me to nowhere. When I played the game for the first time, it took me 1/2 of an hour to find the first Dwemer Ruins in the beginning of the game (Yeah, seems a bit stupid :rofl: ). It was just like that sometimes, NPCs gave horrible directions, and it didn't even matter if they liked you or not. However it is in Skyrim, I am confident Bethesda will do the right thing, it could even be something new. :tops:

I voted for every option, thus invalidating the poll.

im making a distinction from just randomly going around and exploring which everyone did, my fault i should have clarified, to that of incidental exploration. when you did the quests in morrowind there was alot of incidental exploration because the directions would say something like "family tomb west side of the river just south of balmora" there might be 2 or three family tombs that fit that description and you dont know until you get to the door and see the name of it. in oblivion if you just did quests you never had to do that ......ever. there could be 10 tombs in an area but you wouldnt have to search for them since the arrow pointed you to the correct one. in the end you might end up missing out on the others. a perfect example of this is the shop questline in imperial city. at the end of the quest you are supposed to to the cemetary to find a specific family tomb that is going to be robbed..er graverobbed. normally you would have to search the various tombs but not with the quest arrow. somehow you magically know exactly which tomb belongs to that family even though you have no connection to them whatsoever. its stupid.

as for the argument that using up dialogue on directions means less room for dialogue elsewhere. i just dont buy it. at most directions are a couple of paragraphs long. thats 1 or 2 KB of data at most. its also one of the easiest things to write since you just give some basic landmarks and directions. i dont know about you but when im giving directions its not like i break out into a sweat and start getting a headache from all the deep thinking i have to do. compare morrowind and oblivion, did writers get stupid between morrowind and oblivion? there was a lot more written dialogue in daggerfall/morrowind than in oblivion especially when you factor in the hundreds of in game books. (im assuming that most books come from daggerfall but someone can correct me if im wrong). in fact there is less dialogue precisely because you dont have to give directions. if you dont have to worry about giving directions then all you have it generic dialogue and quest related entries....nothing more.

people that want quest arrows do in fact want their hand held. there is no other interpretation other than that. you want a big green arrow to point you directly to where you are supposed to go. no exploration, no reading, no critical thinking or logical anolysis etc. explain to me how that is not hand holding.