Good things in Oblivion:
- Magicka regeneates
- Magic can be used without having to make your hands ready
- Graphics
- AI
- Combat was generally better... (but I'd like a mix of both MW and OB, or some completely new system)
- Manual blocking
- Yielding
- Sneaking

I wasn't replying to you st frantic. I was replying to the OP.

It was also better in Oblivion that enemies could operate doors. In Morrowind and Daggerfall, if you left the house, they just stayed inside waiting for you. You could go heal or restock on potions (Morrowind that is) and come back later. It's better for them to chase you out.

Yes! ... but I did freak out a little the first time a bad guy followed me into another area. :blink:

They could operate doors in Morrowind too, if you had GotY edition.

Really?

Yes.

They could operate doors within a cell (so you couldn't lock a skeleton in a broom closet), but they couldn't follow you into another cell if I recall correctly. So if you fled into another part of the dungeon, they would all wait for you there. And if you're wanted by the guards, you just have to run into an interior and heal up.

That is correct.

@OP - So, basically, you take Oblivion up the ass. I kinda thought you Pro-Oblivion guys were neat when you first popped up; the game was getting a lot of [censored] and some good points were made in its favor. A lot of the points, some mentioned in this thread, I actually agree with. Oblivion had better AI, Stealth, etc. But, we get it, you know. You don't have to create a thread every five minutes to tell us how much we're mistaken in our opinions, how much better Oblivion is than we thought. And now, with this thread, it's not even a proper debate on the good/ bad points of either game. It's just Telstar listing off every single feature in Oblivion that's ever been mentioned, whether good or bad, and trying to justify them. He even made a comment on the 'missing' weapon types from Morrowind to Oblivion, giving the impression that because he didn't use spears, it doesn't really matter that they weren't included.

I think the bottom line is that these threads aren't going anywhere. You guys moaned at the-then over overzealous Morrowinders for not looking at both sides, but now it's the other way around. Betrayer of Humanity, for example. From what I've seen, he obviously likes Morrowind better, but he's willing to look at both games and notice the pros and cons of each. Telstar, however, didn't have one good thing to say concerning Morrowind. Not one. And I've been seeing a lot of the same type of attitude on this forum recently, and frankly it's getting tiresome.

Fast travel & quest markers should definitely be in TES V, but so should the option for the Morrowind style.

I tried to play Morrowind after playing Oblivion. To me, Oblivion was the better game. I don't have 100 hours a week to play the game, so having to do all the extra steps, just takes away from the fun of playing a game.

That is why we should have the option to use either style & not limit the game with one style, so everyone will be happy.

Goty is the only edition I played. I know what you mean, but that's barely even a thing.

Ok,sorry mate,got the wrong end of the stick. Was'nt 100% sure,but now i am
Alls good my good man

Off topic: does anyone know if morrowind for the original xbox,is compatable with the 360?
If so i may try & find a copy....i listened to the morrowind music on youtube & watched some clips.
Man...i could'nt stop smiling....then it smacked me in the face & said....but you dont have this game anymore... :banghead:

It sure is I play xbox morrowind on my 360.

Looooong post ahead as it includes a lot of idea on different fields.
I actually wrote this over half a year ago but never really got around to post it, so here goes.



Navigation:
Here are a few compiled ideas on travel, finding your way around and the map.

1. Fast Travel
2: Map
3: Quest Compass
4: Zoning


1. Fast Travel:
OK here's my take on fast travel again specially the traveling methods. For this keep in mind that the game world in mind is FAR bigger than the one in Oblivion.
A full trip on foot from the two furthest points of the map, taking the safe main roads, regular rest stop and normal walking speed take one in game week.


How you travel:
Just like in Daggerfall it could simulate your travel AND what you did on the way, if you traveled rigorously or carefully, if you kept traveling or did regular rest stops, if you took safe paths or shortcuts etc.
All those then simulate how much money or resources you used, how far you walked and also your condition in the end, it could happen that you got sick on the way and have to cure that first.

-The route you take:
Main roads: Only taking the main roads is the longest path but also the safest, you won't encounter bandits here and very rarely small creatures. Also most inns are along the main roads, however camping on main roads isn't tolerated.
Side roads: Taking side roads can be a lot faster as you can take shortcuts but it's less safe, some danger of bandits and wild animals. There are less Inns but you can camp out without risk of the guards threatening to arrest you.
Cross country: This can be the fastest method but also the most taxing and dangerous since you really go though the wild. You can only rarely stop at a inn and pretty much have to camp out to rest.

-Resting:
Inns: Most relaxing and regenerating, uses money.
Camp out: Takes more time since you have to set up camp and can be less relaxing, uses food OR requires you to hunt.
Travel on: You can also chose to travel on without rest, this however can mean you collapse on your way making you a easy target for bandits. This shouldn't be done if you're injured and have to travel for more than 2-3 days.

You could also chose to hurry which makes you a bit faster but is more taxing.


Travel methods:
-Walking:
Walking is by far the slowest method of travel, as mentioned it could take a full in game week to travel from one end of the map to the other. Here you have free choice what way to take and how you want to travel.
Plus you can really go everywhere since you're not limited to a path.

-Horseback:
Similar to walking but faster and you can regenerate more, though not fully since you still have to ride. Again pretty much free choice of how to travel but horses can't go everywhere, very remote and hard to reach places can only be reached on foot or under special conditions.

-Travel service:
A bit slower than by horse and you're bound to their conditions, if they stop for the night it means you stop for the night too and. However you can fully regenerate since you can treat injures and get food on the way.
However you can jump off a travel service anytime too.

-Hitch a ride:
Similar to travel service, only here you don't have much control over where they go, they can pretty much just take you the same way they go.

-Mages guild teleporter:
By far the fastest method but limited to big mages guild halls so you can only get to certain locations and most likely the most expensive one. However if you can skip ? of a trip that way it's a good alternative.

-Teleportation devices:
Again like in Morrowind, scrolls, items and spells that can teleport you between set locations like a marked spot or temples/churches.

-Other teleporters:
It's also possible that other teleporters are scattered throughout the land like the Propylon chambers in Morrowind. Of course those would only have fixed locations, some of them could even reach to secret places like deep underground, on a mountain you normally cant reach or that have no other entrances.


What can happen:
First off you should NOT die or lose valuable items while fast traveling, it should not be a punishment. However you can use money, food and your equipment can be quite worn after a long trip.
Not to mention you can arrive quite exhausted and even injured. You can also catch diseases and infections on the way but again, you won't die on the way.
What CAN happen though is that the trip is too exhausting and you collapse leaving you as easy prey for anyone coming along.

During a bandit attack you could get a message, either chose to pay and go on, resist and fight or switch from travel to normal game and try yourself at it. Paying however wouldn't automatically mean you get out of it free.
Trying yourself at it also allows negotiating, maybe you could talk him out of it.
As mentioned if you travel on the protected main roads you will NOT run into bandits but it's the longest and also most expensive method since you have to take breaks in inns. Camping on the main roads is forbidden which could get you arrested and end up in the nearest prison.

When you lose a fight during fast travel you don't die but your fast travel is aborted, how you end up then depends on where it happened. Near a settlement there's a chance you awake in a hospital, a guard station, church/temple or if someone decided to take you in.
On the roads it's likely a guard finds you and wakes you up, most of the time they'd offer taking you to the nearest settlement except if you already managed to make yourself a quite bad name. However even in that case it's likely they won't just leave you out to die, after all they can still collect a bounty.
If you where further in the wild you'd wake up at some point near your path of travel beaten and injured but still able to patch yourself up.

Also one thing, if you want to go to certain locations OFF the main roads it pretty much demands to either go on foot OR choosing cross country.

When camping it can also depend on your gear, just camping with nothing is least relaxing as you pretty much sleep in the dirt, carrying a pillow makes it a bit better, then getting a bedroll, sleeping bag or even a tent.


Kinds of travel:
Of course what the trip looks like could differ too, here are a few ideas:

Long way methods:
-Fade to black:
Pretty much the way it was in Oblivion and Morrowind, you faded out and then appeared at your target location. When you appear again you can look in your statistics which show what happened on the trip.

-Map-travel:
When you start your trip your map is displayed and the path you take is highlighted, you can see yourself follow that path marking down rest stops and encounters and can skip out of it any time.

In fact of these two methods the map-travel could be standard and you can just chose “skip trip” and instantly appear on your target location.

Mid and short way methods:
-Road sign travel:
With this travel method it should be possible to click road or street signs and choose to travel to the locations they point to.
You remain in normal view of the game and walk along the chosen path with time speed up about 10x (environment details could be reduced to minimum so the game lags less). Again you could skip out of it anytime and see when there are encounters.
Inside of towns the speed up would be at about 4x so you can see the surroundings better (and the walkways are usually shorter anyway). You should be able to set the travel speeds in the game settings.

-Walk to location:
Of course one possibility is auto walk in real time. This would be useful if you simply didn't feel like steering your character all the time along a trip but still want to get some scenery.
You simply chose a point/destination on your map and select “go there” and your character will start the trip.
This is mostly useful on very short distances like a trip across town but can be done over any distance. Here you could freely switch between walk and run and also enter your inventory freely.

In both your character is simply controlled like a NPC following a main path.
Since those methods are a tad slower they are only really useful between or through towns but of course can also be used to cross the whole map.

Also, if you get into an encounter here, so your character KNOWS he is attacked, you could chose that the game automatically switches to pause. After all it could happen that you just let your character walk and left the room quickly, would svck if you got attacked and killed during that.


Why walk then?:
Now the big question is “why should I walk?”.
There where some BIG issues in Oblivion that just screamed to use fast travel, those need to be addressed in order to to encourage walking. The biggest ones where:

-Boring landscape:
All in all the landscape was just bland and repetitive, it simply got boring to walk the ways all the time. Plus if you saw one ruin/cave of a type you saw ALL of that type so why should you actively look for them?
--Solution:
Well, obviously to make better landscapes, check the Unique Landscapes mod since it really did WONDERS. More area diversity would help too.
Plus, Oblivion had a lot of “empty” landscapes like behind Kvatch... honestly, there was nothing except for a dungeons and monsters thrown in between the plants. Don't leave such empty spot, there can be some that are purely for scenery porm but not just EMPTY.
And of course more dungeon diversity so every visit in one is a new experience.

-To few settlements:
While there where a lot of dungeons there there barely any small settlements (and the ones that where there are absolutely tiny).
--Solution:
There needs to be a big change to them, Towns actually NEED to be bigger and look like towns, the size they had in Oblivion should the minimum you can still call a town.
Then there needs to be a bigger distance between major and capitol towns with smaller settlements in between, not just single inns in the middle of nowhere.

-Nothing to do:
Honestly, there was nothing to do in the land (where are the naked Nords?). You probably just walked the way from town to town and that's it.
--Solution:
With the previously mentioned “more settlements” you could of course have more places with people, meaning more possible quests.
AND a big point, there should be random quests, something like “could you help me with that” or small jobs like helping someone harvest a field or go hunting. Many of the rewards there instead of just gold or some über item could be something like a favor like “come have dinner with me” or “you can sleep at my place this night, be my guest” or hell just “if you ever need help, come to me”.
Those jobs could also be given to you by people traveling the streets... oh yea talking about that point.

-Streets where empty:
Aside a few guards now and then the streets where dead, there was just NOBODY around.
--Solution:
Well obviously have travelers on the streets.

-Annoyances:
While a lot of people say “there should be more dangers on the way” they very quickly became an annoyance rather than a challenge, specially stuff like mountain lions that could kill you in 2 seconds and the Will-o-the-Wisps you couldn't kill with any ordinary weapon.
--Solution:
There can be stuff on the way but the MAIN roads should remain safe so you DO have a path without big dangers or at least under better surveillance.

-Missions are to spaced:
In Oblivion (and honestly in Morrowind too) missions sent you too far across the map. Even the tiniest fetch quest demanded you to go from one end to the other. This just made you walk the same roads over and over and over.
--Solution:
Most missions should be in the nearer area of where you got them, in bigger towns most of them would even be within the city limits.
So basically the mission goals you get are within a sane distance and IF they are further they are actually WORTH it.
Also missions should be done in a way that you can stay in a area for a while since there's either enough to do or the mission actually requires some time invested into it.

If you add all those together you get something that encourages actually walking your way.
You can have wonderful stuff to see, when finding something interesting it's actually something new.
You can actually find more places with people who can give you smaller stuff to do on the way to fill your pocket and stomach a bit. Plus you can actually make friends and increase your reputation. Or simply stay in a place a bit before continuing on your way to your ultimate goal.
And on the way, if you get tired of walking, you could ask people with horses or carts to take you along possibly in real time OR fast forward.
Or maybe talk to people on the way, do trading or travel with them.

All this would make the streets a LOT more interesting to walk instead of just choosing to skip the trip. So Fast Travel is neither fully necessary nor a punishment, you only miss out on the stuff that's in between.

On a little side note though, while in Morrowind you had to go through several loading screens while fast traveling and possible none on foot to reach your destination in Oblivion you just had to go through ONE during fast travel but several when walking normally.
Possible that this encouraged people to use this more.



2. Map:
The map should not be hard to use, it should actually be as convenient as possible.
Sure some people will say “It's more realistic if you can't see your exact location”, “RL you don't have a paper map that automatically follows/updates” and the like. While I don't really disagree on some degree, I have to say there should be more a point of user continence here.
However since a lot of people like to play they way THEY want it I will go for the old but not necessarily wrong “make it an option” point.

Anyway, first off on the general map ideas:

Map handling and setup:
-Map details:
There should be different steps of detail for the map depending on how well it's explored.
Empty map: Right at the start your map is completely empty save maybe for the outlines of the province it's set in.
Raw map: This map just shows some topography so mainly just mountains, valleys and rivers. This is pretty much the map you have right after stepping out in the open.
First view map: When you look around the map in your visual range is automatically updated (the higher your position the better). It shows more details like main roads and bigger settlements.
Sketched map: When buying maps you can update yours with them, this map has a few more details including ones that aren't initially obvious or very hard to find so it might pay off to buy maps from time to time.
Explored map: This has the most details since you explored it going as far as showing every entrance and door you discovered. This could be updated in a radius of maybe 25 meters around you since it's everything you can see more detailed.
In the dark you can still recognize things and the map update is limited to maybe 5 meters, in TOTAL darkness it's limited to touch range (about 1 meter around you).
Details like doors are added on that view distance too but they also have to be in your line of sight so doors behind a wall are not automatically added.


-Detail levels:
The map itself should of course be freely zoomable but there should also be the possibility to switch between different detail levels. That way the large map wouldn't be too clustered by small details.
However the switch between them shouldn't happen automatic but rather manual as it can get annoying to zoom out and suddenly getting a different map popping up where the thing you looked for might not be visible.
World map: Just a rough area of the map that shows the borders of the land and main areas as well as some bigger details (mountains, valleys, large rivers, major settlements/landmarks and main roads). At standard zoom level the whole world map is visible.
County map: A step closer showing all small settlements as well as smaller landmarks and roads within a county around major towns. The zoom level here is at standard about as far in so you have a whole county in view at once.
Town map: Here every individual building of a town is visible on your map as well as their entrances (assuming you explored the town enough of course). As this step a medium sized town (about the size of Balmora in Morrowind) would be fully in view.
Building map: The closest zoom step, here, if you'd be inside a building, every small detail within it would be displayed (again assuming you explored it though).


Map mechanics:
-Zoomable:
The map should be freely zoomable as mentioned before, sometimes it's better to have a more detailed smaller section in view, sometimes you need to have all at once in view.
You could zoom freely with your mouse wheel or with predefined zoom steps (world, far, near...).

-Manual markers:
Aside the automatic markers you should be able to set manual markers too and also name them. Morrowind made a good step there after the expansions, sadly you could only see them on the close up map and not the world map but that was due to the cell system they used.
Now setting a marker manually wouldn't be a problem, this can be helpful if you, for example, find a spawn point of a rare plant and want to remember the location.

-Highlight markers:
Aside being able to set markers you should also be able to highlight already existing ones and write a note to them as well.
It would also be helpful if you could set a “automatic highlight time” that automatically makes the marker appear or simply be highlighted more between certain times, like when you find a shrine that can only be worshiped at certain times or at a certain date, plus adding a note for something you maybe need there.
This would help to have several markers active without cluttering up your map too much. Some could also become active when you're in close proximity, so when walking along a road to a quest location those are recommended as little “side missions” or just interesting points you can visit while on the way (or simple to know where you can make rest stops).

-Marker image:
Having a choice of different marker images (like google earth for example) would be nice too, for your own markers but also for preset markers. Fighters guild contract markers could have crossed swords as a marker for example or a little treasure chest for a treasure you found and want to pick up later.

-Design:
Personally I'd like to see something like the “satellite map” from Morrowind return, it was simply better to add new landmasses that way since it was automatically updated without need to make a new map entirely.
Plus you could also have auto-maps of uncharted areas, after all the Oblivion realms didn't have maps but sometimes could have needed them.
It would be best if the map was converted to a vector image, that way you could endlessly zoom in without it becoming pixelated or swallowing too much RAM for a high rez image. It would lose detail after a bit of course.

-Building maps:
A problem in Morrowind was that it always just made a image of the building you where in from above which meant you always just see the topmost floor. It should be able to detect your current hight and display several layers, that way you could have several floors within the same cell and not have them get in the way.
Easiest way there would be to simply have the map in 3D and you could scroll up and down. Also if it's a really real time map it would also update changes to the environment like changed furniture position.


As a small side note, PLEASE don't just say “no map notes” because it's to hard to write them on consoles. Adding notes is still useful and could maybe have some predefined ones too like “explore here”, “stash”, “gold”, interesting” etc.


Map options:
-Different mini map settings:
I already talked about this in another thread, here you should be able to set up how you want the mini map. Some possible designs can be:
Off: No mini map displayed.
Rectangular map: Like in Morrowind..
Round map: like for example GTA or Guild Wars.
Turn option: Chose if the map remains fixed always facing north or if it turns with your movements so on the map your character always faces up.
Compass separate or docked: You could chose to have the compass either as a separate item on screen or docked around your map.
Docking other things to the map: You could also chose to dock a clock/daytime display to your map instead of having it as a separate element. It could simply show a sun and moon going around your map which displays time for example.

-Legend:
Since the map got hopelessly cluttered after a while you should be able to turn elements of the legend on and off as you want.


Filling out your map:
When you start the game your map is pretty much empty, it could only show the very contours of the province you're in or a raw map as described above (Only displaying mountains, valleys and rivers as in Morrowind). When first getting into the outside the map is roughly filled in depending on what you can see (first view map) and the closer area around you, maybe a radius of 25 meters during a bright day and 1 meter when it's completely dark, is filled in detailed (explored map).

That way at the very start of the game you have no infos about the game world except possibly the rough topography, main roads and the location of the major towns (probably just the county capitals). When getting a first view over the landscape you get more details like settlements up to a certain size and larger roads but they not filled in with the exact name, they just get a general one like “town”, “village”, “farm” and the like. You get the exact name when visiting them.
How far the “first view” map depends on your viewpoint, hight and how obscured your view is. When looking around in a forested valley you won't get much of your map filled out but looking down on the land from a high mountain can fill in a lot (bur only if it's not overly cloudy).

What this method can do is that you, for example, can look down from a mountain filling in a lot of land on your map with general information of what you can see, however things that are behind another mountain or too small to be seen correctly won't be added. If you have a hidden village in a mountain caldera that you couldn't look into from your position you just get the impression that it's a closed off mountain top but truly there is something hidden from view, but you could possibly catch a little glimpse of it.


Interactive mini map:
This idea stems from a different suggestion but fits into this just as well. When clicking a button your screen should change to “interact” mode which means you can click your HUD elements. You can click the mini map too and do some quick interactions with it like zooming in and out, rotating it, activate different legend settings, changing the floor you're looking on etc. without having to go into the inventory/map screen to do so.



3. Quest compass:
First a little explanation, a map marker is a marked position on your map and the compass just points to a highlighted marker. The others remain inactive until highlighted.

The quest compass could still be present similar to how it was in Oblivion but with a few changes.

Narrowing it down:
Instead of directly pointing you to your goal it always points to the next goal your character KNOWS about.

To explain it better, think of this:
You have to find a certain person and only know the general area where he lives (like “county Anvil” in Oblivion for example) but neither the exact town, street or house. In that case the compass will point to center or the capital of that area, so you roughly know where you have to search or gather more informations.
Then, after asking around a bit, you might know what town he lives in, the compass will then point to that town but again not where EXACTLY he lives. Asking around further you might learn the street or exact address which will place a marker there.
However the person still might not be there but you can gain further info, where he works (will place a marker at his workplace as well) or where he usually eats (places another marker there).
That way you can narrow down where that person MIGHT be, at times where he's usually at that place the corresponding marker will be highlighted.


Showing the exact position:
There is a possibility for the marker directly showing your destination when you exactly know where something is OR if the target is in your direct line of sight.
It's hard to recognize a person on a computer screen but your character can, when a person you seek is in your line of sight and close enough he can have a marker since your character can see him now. Similar for objects you're looking for, when they are in your line of sight they can be highlighted.
That way you could also spot a NPC or target over larger distances through a telescope for example.


So basically instead of directly pointing to your goal it simply narrows it down more the more exactly you know where you have to go. If you know the area it will point to the areas center, if you know the closer area it will point more exactly to that point and if you know exactly where it WILL point exactly there, that includes directly seeing it.
And once you pinpointed a location it will set a marker there.


Temporary locations:
There might also be the possibility to have a “faded” marker, for example when following a person the faded marker will show at the last position where you saw him or where people last saw him, if too much time passes that marker might even go away.


Finding dropped items:
I also had a thought on finding objects again, once you picked up a quest object and then KNOW it is one (once you get the mission to get it) it WILL show a marker on your map even after you dropped or sold it.

Now while many will say “that's quest guiding again” hear me out. First of it does NOT set a marker until you found the object itself, it will only do so afterwards.
What this does is add a safeguard so you can't accidentally give away or lose a quest item. When you look for it again the marker will remain at it's last know position, if you dropped it somewhere look near that place, if you sold it the trader will be shown.

What this is for is mostly one thing, prevent a lot of frustration.
In Morrowind it happened a lot that you just out of curiosity cleared a dungeon, found a seemingly normal item and either sold it or dropped it while cleaning out your inventory. And later found out it was a important quest item and is now lost forever.
This is what the system can at least to a big part prevent, you CAN find the lost item again since you REMEMBER it.

It could still be added that a quest item can't be destroyed (dismantled, molten, broken down...), while that would be a pretty strong hint that this is a important object it's still more subtle than a text message bluntly telling you it is.
Oh and if you dropped it in a place where you can never get it again like a lava flow, that REALLY is your own fault then .


Compass markers:
Golden marker head:
A immovable location like a house, town, ruin etc. When looking for a certain person and a typical location where they are is given a golden marker will be placed there and also remain after you found that person since he/she can move around and just be there at times.

Silver marker head:
Shows a movable location like a person or a non-static item. This marker only shows when the target actually is in view so you can actually confirm it's location.

Hollow marker head:
A temporary location for targets that can move on their own like a person or animal. When you lose view contact it will leave a hollow marker at the last seen location which slowly fades out. That way when pursuing someone and you lose view contact (specially over some distance) you know where you last saw him and can attempt to catch up again.

Red marker head:
A “last known location” marker. For example, you have to make a run for it and drop your backpack to get away faster, this will leave a red marker on your backpack, at least on the point where you dropped it since this was the last location you knew you saw it. When going back there your backpack will usually be either on or near that point.
However it can happen that somebody picked it up and carried it away, if that happened you have to track it down (since your backpack would be valuable it could be said that other people can't take stuff out of your dropped backpack and your character always has a “hunch” of where it might be, after all no need for frustration that you permanently lose all your stuff).


To give a example:
You're sent to a fort ruin to get a rare helmet in the armory, but there are bandits and you need the key from the bandit chief, you get a location, a description of the helmet, a layout of the ruin and where the armory is and something you can identify the bandit chief with.

You will get a GOLGEN marker on the ruin since it will always be there. While seeking through it you have a GOLDEN marker on the armory since you know where that is too, the helmet has a RED marker on it since it was last known to be there. When you spot the bandit chief he will be shown with a SILVER marker but that will turn into a HOLLOW marker when you lose eye contact at the location you last saw him.
When you get the key and head into the armory you might get a surprise, the helmet isn't there anymore meaning the RED marker vanishes, there will likely be a journal note too that the helmet wasn't there anymore and you'd have to gather info.
Looking around the ruin you get infos about the bandits having moved anything valuable to a different hideout like “the cave in the old woods” which will add a GOLDEN Marker in the middle of the “old woods”, it won't exactly show the location of the cave since you only know it's somewhere in the woods but not exactly where.
Seeking through the woods or secretly following one of the bandits you find the cave which THEN gets a GOLDEN marker assigned to it since you now know it's location (if they havea crude map showing where it is you you can press one into revealing the location does that too). However once inside you're on your on your own since you can't know where they put the valuables or the helmet. However if they have a crudely drawn map of the cave where there treasure room is marked down it will add a GOLDEN marker to it.
Finally while searching you come by the treasure room and actually SEE the helmet, now the helmet will have a SILVER marker on it since you can exactly see where it is. However it can happen that somebody noticed the treasure room door is open and investigates so you have to hide. While hiding the SILVER marker of the crown will change to a RED marker since, again, that was where you last saw it.
When checking back into the chamber and the helmet is still there it will be shown as SILVER, just pick it up and done. If it's NOT there the RED marker will vanish you'll have to check around again if you find it, the most likely place would of course be the person who last entered the room.


Setting the compass yourself:
You could still set a marker manually and then make the compass point towards it. That way you can manually pin a location like something you want to explore later on or already know that something is there.



4. Zoning:
(Note, it's assumed that the cell system CAN also function with all houses in one cell)

A problem present in Morrowind already and carried over into Oblivion was that there was no real zoning of areas outside cell names. This however made defining smaller areas impossible and borders between some of them couldn't be defined.
That's why there should be a better way to define zones in the construction set. You should still be able to name a cell, that's the easiest way to give a larger area a name after all. But there should be a way to define the borders of it better and also sub-zones in it.

This could be done by simply being able to “draw” a area in a top down view in the the construction set (flattened like a map), just roughly draw in the are, click to add more vertices's and drag them around till they encircle the area you want to define, then just add which name they have. Drawing a smaller area within one gives it a sub name, this can be done several time.
In the “where am I” display it could go by always showing the current location and the next highest. Also some areas can be left without a name which only displays the main area name.
So the naming system is “Next higher area – Current area”, when the current area is defined but not given a name it will just leave that blank and only display the next higher area

It would kinda go like this:
You define a big area “Grasslands”.
Within that zone you placed a farm, you define the farms area and give it a name like “Caius family farm”
In the farms zone you can then define areas again like “Corn field”, “Main building”, “Stables”, “Tool shed”, “Farmhands quarters” etc.
And one step further you can name individual rooms in the houses, for this however you should also be able to move them vertically so rooms on different floors can have different names.

So when walking around in a largely undefined area it displays the province and the county you're in, going with Cyrodiil it would for example display “Cyrodiil – County Kvatch”. When going into the grasslands it displays “County Kvatch – Grasslands”.
Then when walking on the farm is displays “Grasslands – Caius family farm” and, when going on one of the sub areas “Caius family farm – Corn field” or “Caius family farm – Main building” for example. When going into the main building and you're not in a named room it will just display “Main building” as the zone you're in is unnamed. When going into a named room it will display “Main building – Kitchen”, “Main building – Living room” etc.

On the map screen you can also see the full string of areas you're in.

Effectively this allows you to define a much smaller area than a cell, when stepping onto the property of a small shrine somewhere in the woods for example it displays the name of the shrine instead of just the forests name. Or you can name individual properties in towns.
Also it allows you to add “zone rules” to areas, like when somebody doesn't like you entering his property (not just the house but also the ground around it) that can be done without having to define that in a cell which could end up bugged (calling the guards even though you're clearly outside his borders because you stand on a cells corner).


Visible area map update:
This can also go into the map and the “update what's in view” system as the zones can be given a “generic name” and a “actual name”. When viewing over the world from a high location you can identify larger areas like forests, farmlands or settlements.
When looking around your map will be filled in and display the edges of the areas will be filled in and given a generic name, seeing a forest with a defined area fills it in with “Forest”, seeing a town will fill it in with “Town”, seeing a farm will fill it in with “Farm” etc. It could be defined while placing them at which distance they are added. Larger ones are added over the full view distance (county borders, large forests, large towns...), some over a limited distance (2 – 4 km, smaller forests, smaller settlements, farms, large ruins), some on close distance (100 – 500m, small ruins, individual buildings...). They must however be visible, obscured objects and zones are not added.
Then when exploring around and actually visiting those areas (being closer than 25 meters or so to it) or getting informations like from existent maps it gives you the actual name.

In the construction set those can simply be color coded:
Green means updated on any distance (as long as you can see the zone)
Yellow is updated on long distance (2 – 4 km)
Red is updated on close distance (200 – 500 m)

With this system looking around from a high position gives you a general impression of the are, where the borders are when there the main towns are located, also the location of some larger farms and ruins. Exploring around closer can add more generic marker and area definitions for smaller areas and individual buildings and really visiting them gives you the actual name.

Adding "Telstar" to my list of nemesi on the forums...
(This is a joke, I know how easily some of you guys get offended)

Pretty much everything you've listed I completely disagree with. I'm not going to give a proper reply, as by the time it's finished, TESXXV will be on the streets, people will drive around in spaceships daily, and I'll have aged 200 years.

I'll just go for some of the non standard arguments I haven't been over a million times (Fast travel, quest markers, etc.)

M'aiq was a disgrace in Oblivion. "People want Crossbows, they're idiots", or something along those lines. Yeah, great thing to say about your fanbase there, Bethesda. M'aiq should just talk about cliché's TES steers clear of in a non insulting way ala Morrowind. "Dragons? Oh, they're everywhere! You must fly very high to see most of them, though. The ones nearer the ground are very hard to see, being invisible." Perfect. Offensive much? I think not. Pure fun avoiding cliché's.

Sheogorath has the WORST depition ever in SI. Sheogorath is just a walking joke. Every time he comes up with something that may resemble a demented side to him, he goes and turns it into a punch line. Stupid. and none of this crap about Bethesda wanting to keep the age rating down. If they want to do so, they should steer clear of mature themes, like insanity.

^ this ^

in morrowind I can't remember how many times I was doing a quest and suddenly found myself lost in some unexplored part of the island and having an unexpected adventure/quest/loot, I still remember the first time I got lost and finding the tribal tents I was like WOW, then I found a lost cave and it was a burial ground for the darkelves and I was WOW, see more jawdroping moments, less o i follow the marker.

There is no downside to including fast travel as it appears in Oblivion as an optional feature (that can be turned on or off). Perhaps link it to the difficulty slider or put it under the options next to it.
Forcing the fast travel and compass on players that do not want it does seem unfair, providing an on/off option is the best possible solution.

I would like to see the creation of a new skill, "NAVIGATION," which determines how well your compass works.

NAVIGATION as a skill:
1) Introduce maps and compasses as items
2) Low score in Navigation results in more random/jitter in the direction points. So you might follow your compass perfectly, but with a low score, end up miles from the right spot.
3) Things like the weather, night/day and fatigue may play a part in ability to navigate as well.
3) Low score in Navigation also results in a greater chance of "random encounters" while using fast travel.

MAPS and COMPASSES as items:
1) The world map is blank, and terrain features are filled in as the player explores.
2) Points on the map are placed by the player and by purchasing maps from retailers/traders (these maps can be wrong).
3) Points on the map which are placed in the wrong places can be moved by the player to the correct location, should s/he ever discover the true whereabouts.
4) Compasses and the quality of compass determine w/ the player's skill in Navigation, how accurate the quest markers and directional points are.
5) Fast Travel may occur for places the player has not yet explored, yet has gained knowledge of through NPC's and purchased maps. This kind of fast travel incurs a much higher rate of random encounters and getting lost (better Navigation skill lessens the odds).

Thanks mate :tops: ......just pre-ordered morrowind GOTY edition.
Cant wait to play this again ,its been along time.

I love this idea. :tops:

I'd like to thank you for the interesting reads. I decided to put this thread in this forum hoping to get a critical response from people, and I wasn't disappointed. Daniel Kay especially put a lot of effort and thought into his post, and I thought his ideas on quest markers/travelling were really good. I'd hope that the next ES game could incorporate a good bit of it. For those of you who go to the Oblivion vs. Morrowind trash-talking, I feel you missed the point. I was trying to talk about points of Oblivion and some complaints about it I've seen, and for most of this, the only standard to compare Oblivion to is Morrowind. That should speak highly of Morrowind without saying anything good about it at all.

@Keltic Viking: You're right about removing weapons being a step back. I also phrased my piece about the weapons in a way which guaranteed someone would liken it to the quote you pulled up (not really intentionally). While I personally only use swords, bows, magic, and shields, I do like the idea of other weapons being in the game as a strategy factor. How will I deal with a guy with a warhammer, since his hammer will destroy my armor? I kind of felt that lacking in Oblivion, as I found I could kill the warhammer guy or any other guy and I never noticed much difference. The only plus side to removing weapons is, I think, that Beth devoted time to making some weapons better than Morrowind's. Archery, as I recall now, is much better than Morrowind's (thanks Betrayer). I ended up not using bows when I played through Morrowind, after trying to use them. I think combat magic is also better.

Another point you made was on my levelling comments. You're right, xp for killing a wolf with a sword, getting applied to your magic skills is silly. Equally silly are some of the levelling techniques I've seen the usage system. Summon a skeleton, hit him three times, then hold the block key. Repeat. Or put something heavy on your cast key which is set to a custom spell that gives 1 dmg and heals 2, while you go and do something else. I don't think that xp should take over like it did in Fallout. It also seems like pointless grinding to raise a skill from mid to high levels without a trainer. Which is why I am glad they put them in the game.

Finally the start comments you made. Since it has been a long time since I played Morrowind, I forgot about Caius' "go get some fame before I tell you to do stuff". I think that this actually gave me a reason to join guilds, do stuff outside the main quest. It got me absorbed into the side-stories, and also had a reason in the story (this not being a spoiler thread, I'll leave it there). I felt, after playing Morrowind, that Oblivion's story/questlines was less motivating, as they were all completely separate. The Shivering Isles expansion's story was much better than the main game's, in my opinion, which is sad. I think it may be at least partially related to the quality of voice actors.




So I have a nemesis on the ES forums! I shall work tirelessly to foil your well laid out forum posts! Or not, I tend not to look at forums too frequently. I found M'aiq fairly entertaining the few times I met him in Oblivion. I caught his jab at Fable, and a few explanations of things, like no children in Oblivion, no Colovian Fur Helms, etc. I missed his crossbow line, and that one could have been cut. Perhaps I can make the skooma addict my new source of inspiration?
As for Sheogorath, I enjoy walking jokes. I also like him because he is so much more animated than the Oblivion voice actors.

Davor took the time to debate my points as well, I'll try to respond to some points tomorrow.

I literally laugh at everyone who says "Just do it both ways so everyone's happy"

Newsflash, fools, life never works that way. Bethesda is a business, and unless you anti-decision making folk are ready to invest thousands and thousands of dollars in the production of the game, THEY WILL NOT MAKE TWO DIFFERENT GAMES TO APPEASE BOTH MORROWIND AND OBLIVION FANS.

Maybe I need to say it again, so everyone hears.

THEY WILL NOT MAKE TWO DIFFERENT GAMES TO APPEASE BOTH MORROWIND AND OBLIVION FANS

Good. Now you might have heard. The only thing I can see them doing is having fast travel available, but also adding travel stations at cities and such. Which is stupid. Just eliminate fast travel. It's [censored] [censored].

It really comes down to two things. Are you a true fan of Bethesda's works, and are you just a lazy video game fan who picked up Oblivion because it had good graphics at the time? Bethesda, remember Daggerfall and Morrowind, and make a game that looks and feels as good as Oblivion, but plays to your true identity. Otherwise, you'll slowly start to become another mainstream developer. That would be a shame, because Bethesda makes a product that literally NO ONE else does. And I've been trying to find the feel Morrowind gave me, but cannot. Oblivion was close, but nothing gave me what Morrowind has, except hopefully TES5.

I'm a true fan of Bethesda's works whose introduction to the series was Morrowind (and who regards it as a superior game to Oblivion), and yet I still love Oblivion (and I'm not terribly bothered by fast travel). Hm, strange. What exactly would you classify me as? Since it can obviously only be one of the two kinds of people you suggested.

Judging by your avatar, I'm going to guess some kind of human-dragonfly hybrid.

Damn, they're on to me...