So, I've seen a lot of complaints about some of Oblivion's features in the past. I felt like responding to them in one collected thread, especially before TESV is announced and is probably still in development. I tried to at least portray the other side's arguments fairly. Here's my thoughts:

1. Quest markers- I have seen a lot of opinions against it. People want to do it on their own. They don't want the little mini map with the marker showing them which way to go. It's immersion breaking...
Me: I think that quest markers are good. Look, I can look something up in the journal like I did in Morrowind easy enough. But do I really want to see a page-long entry that gives a general direction? If I go in a general direction, a 10-degree course error could be the difference between me finding the next cool place and aimlessly wandering around and becoming frustrated after deciding I'm lost and can't get quest xxx done. I wouldn't mind quests like the Countess of Bruma's quest where there were short legs to a landmark, which would give you another landmark. But too many of these without a quest marker would become a pain in the rear. Does this outcrop really look like an old lady's nose, or is it the one that looks like an elbow? Is this the landmark for the quest that says go to the ridge that looks like a lion's back, or the one that says look for the ridge that looks like a bear's back? Do you really want to take a 70-100 hr game and add more time into it just because you get lost? I don't care for the tedium.
My solution: Make quest markers for Oblivion style quests toggleable. For the odd quests like the Countess of Bruma's, toggleability would be good. For all quests, at least an arrow pointing straight to your destination would help kill the tedium greatly (and would avoid the "immersion breaking" inherent in knowing exactly where your destination is).

2. Fast travel- Detractors tout the Morrowind system of silt striders and mages' guild teleports. After getting to your nearest city, you walked to your destination (which you didn't always know exactly where it was). There was no real way to get closer to your destination without cheats (and when I learned of ~coc , I rarely walked from a city again). I can understand the position somewhat, as fast travel in Oblivion seems more like a cheat than a mode of travel.
Me: While I can see where they're coming from, there's nothing in Oblivion that forces you to fast travel, or only fast travel between cities. Oblivion's also pretty big, and it can be a pain to get to somewhere (especially in the Jerall Mountains). Morrowind was even bigger, with much wider and more open (with some areas also being much more difficult to climb sans levitation). I don't want to have to zig-zag up the same mountain twice (this playthrough), though. If I have a location nearby to which I can fast travel, I want to be able to do so. Why spend another XX minutes retracing the same basic route? I want to eventually complete the quest/game...
My solution: If you don't like fast travel, you don't have to use it. I wouldn't mind seeing a transport network set up, perhaps even a quest or three defending a cart/silt strider/whatever using ranged and/or melee attacks. But please don't get rid of fast travel.

3. Levelling- I've seen people beg for a different levelling system. Modders have replied with the XP levelling system, removing the cap of 100 for stats and skills, and all +5 stat increases (and stuff in between). I think that's awesome.
Me: I think hitting something just to level up a skill or my level is EXTREMELY boring. Blocking an attack repeatedly for skill levelling is even more so. There is some actual legitimacy to the requests. Fallout 3's levelling system was nice, but eventually, you stopped getting level ups and skill increases there too... Oblivion's trainer system is really nice, but if you want to keep levelling up at higher levels, you might be spending all your training for your level levelling your major stats (which can be uncapped by mods as well)... I wouldn't particularly mind XP entering into TESV, but I wouldn't want it to become the primary levelling factor.
My solution: This one, I've got none. I'd kinda like to see XP enter into the game, especially for finding locations through exploration (and killing stuff. Incentives for indiscriminate killing of people/monsters I don't like are always welcomed). Using said XP to supplement your skills/stats/levels would be great. But as an "immersion factor," I'd still like to see the basic Elder Scroll levelling system of use skill, advance in skill, advance in major skills, level up, to take the center stage.

4. Start- Look, I believe that change would be nice here, so it's not like I have a fresh viewpoint here. Having the same exact start and start option is boring as all get out. Play through it enough times, unable to make major path changes, and the game just becomes extremely boring. How many times do you want to do the Mage's Guild Recommendations, or saving Kvatch, or running through an Oblivion gate to close it?
Me: I like the Dragon Age/Bioware approach. Being able to choose your origins is awesome. Being able to choose your factions/game path is even cooler. For example, should I help the Mage's Guild, or go offer my services to the Necromancers? Should I go play through the rat quest again, or can I join a guild that gets high before a mission? I wouldn't like to see completing quests for the Thieves' Guild stopping me from doing the Fighter's Guild quests (like I think happened in Morrowind). Having the options affect your game is also something I want. I liked Neverwinter Nights 2's ability to upgrade your keep (and be its commander to make me feel self-important). Dragon Age and other recent Bioware titles (some old ones too) have given me the sort of path options that I want to see, even affecting the basic ending story (am I saving the Republic or creating a Sith Empire?).
My solution: Mods can help, but I really prefer the vanilla game that is released by a company. If I mod it, it feels slightly out of place (or causes trouble with my other, less game-changing mods). Beth needs to do any tweaks to the game/story before it comes out, if I'm to feel like it belongs.

5. Add favorite weapon- I've heard complaints that weapon XXX didn't appear in Oblivion. People who like weapon XXX were rightly disappointed. Enough said about their viewpoint.
Me: I like swords. I like bows. I like shields. I like magic. As long as these don't disappear, my character won't be disappointed. I never use the blunt weapon category, and I never used spears in Morrowind. I don't do hand-to-hand in Oblivion, although I felt there was meaning to h2h in Morrowind. The only reason I'd like more weapon types in the game is to add to the immersion and force me to use some strategy in attacking.
My solution: M'aiq the Liar. He will make fun of me, you, the devs, and that random person that walked past your window just now. If you want strategy, why not play chess? Or maybe we can have more weapons...

6. Encumberance/Strength- There's a lot of complaining that heavy armor/weapons/anything else slightly useful weighs too much (or too little). I've read some complaints about some item being too light (usually a heavy armor briastplate). Others point to how real swords don't weigh 50 lbs (or do they? Are swords made to actually be used outside of Japan these days?). That aside, on this issue, it seems like some people are Republicans, some are Democrats, and some people are just sitting and laughing at everyone.
Me: Who ever said that pounds, kilograms, or whatever weight system you try to import from Earth-land is recognized in any corner of Tamriel? The way I see encumberance/strength relates to fatigue and carrying capacity, unrelated to units British money or armies of paperclips. As I get stronger, I can carry more cool stuff (and/or cooler stuff). As for the weight of gold, IREALLY don't want to have to worry about that. Where's my debit card? Garcon?
My solution: Ignore the complainers. If I want to make something lighter/heavier, there's the CS and there's mods. If I don't want to take 15 trips to and from some piddly-dink cave to pick up, haul, and sell gear, there's always ~tgm.

7. Shop gold- A lot of players like the Morrowind system better. They think the store should have a varying amount of gold available to trade. This gives the plus of being able to sell a 15,000 septim sword for 15,000 septims, not 1,200 septims (if the guy has anything worth spending 13,800 septims on).
Me: I mainly like the Oblivion system better. I see the capping system as being the merchant's comfort zone for purchases. The better they are at mercantile, the bigger the comfort zone, the more gold they'll spend on your item. It is not a measure of how much gold they actually have. Nor should it be, as the world does not revolve around me! If it did, the further I got into the game, the less money would be available at merchants, as I sell much more than I buy.
My solution: M'aiq the Liar. He will make fun of one group (or both of us) in TES V. A toggle in the options menu might help, too.

8. Lockpicking- The main opinion is that the minigame needs to go. If a novice can crack a very hard safe, there's got to be a problem here. Enough said.
Me: I mostly think that Oblivion's lockpicking game is better than Morrowind's, and while Beth can make the system more challenging next time around, they shouldn't revert to Morrowind's. The complaints come from us being more capable at cracking the locks than Beth could scale the lock difficulty with Security skill/Agility stat. I'd rather see a minigame based on Oblivion's than a return to pure skill checks for lockpick success/failure. While I wait for TES V, I'll be cracking every lock in Cyrodill, even if I lose a few lockpicks along the way!
My solution: See my opinion section.

Since Beth developers have gotten complaints above, I'd like to tell them what they did good in TES IV. Shivering Isles. Sheogorath. Big Head. The world of Tamriel. Sheogorath's shrine quest. Sanguine's quest. M'aiq the Liar. Graphics that can push even today's computers to their limits on high res settings. An all-around good game.

If I feel like saying anything else, maybe I will. Or not. I know more than I tell.

TL;dr

Here goes another Morrowind/Oblivion argument...

Travel services in cities, and teleport spells > Fast travel > "Don't use fast travel if you don't like it"

Make everything toggleable

Fast travel and alternative forms of travel. Everybodies happy

I think the problem with fast travel and quest markers is, this is not a game where you have to do things sequentially. This is an RPG game, it is offering unforeseen adventure, even by the devs. Going from x to y for a quest can turn into an epic journey and when you are at the end of some 300+ hours journey, you can stumble upon your first quest and think back the noob version of your character. Enjoyment of that moment... :touched: Or you can follow the quest markers, fast travel and finish every quest in a robotic manner and this way, you play some linearized game. Too wrong to defend.

TES is much more, Morrowind is a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_text

I don't know how many years have to pass so people realize it. I don't want a step down from it.

That was the philosophical part. For actual implementation part. Please tell me how many hours needed for implementing fast travel? 2 minutes, 30 minutes, 2 hours at most? I want them to spend some quality time on adequate unique content, varying environment design(including vertical), immersive travel options, random encounters... THEN they can add fast travel as an option so I can toggle it off if it comes on by default. Thanks.

lol, this is exactly what I was talking about.

Oh no, people don't like some things about Oblivion. It must be because they're ignorant. Let me post the truth so that everyone may understand why Oblivion is perfect.

I loved morrowind & oblivion...they are my favourite games.
As some people have said...make fast travel optional ( on/off )..whilst having other transport modes...thats how to please everyone
I personally loved morrowinds way,even though it was frustrating sometimes trying to find places,it was fun also.
Why...because its a sense of adventure ( even getting lost ),it feels more real/immersive,you stumble across more things,can get into trouble...i personally loved this.
Like i said sometimes it got frustrating,but when i did eventually find what i was looking for ,it was more satisfying,because it took me time to find it or i ran into trouble etc...it just felt right to me....not all people will think like i do,but why have ( what i call ) a SAT NAV system,telling you to go up there left here etc...to me thats not as fun as getting lost & exploring...especially in a big open world.
I also loved oblivions concept of...what you use or do,you get better at.
Like if you walked/run more your athletics went up,same as other skills etc....i liked that.
Oblivions leveling is'nt perfect,it needs to be worked on as does the level scaling etc. But i do not want the new elder scrolls game to be like fallouts leveling system,i prefer oblivions...what you use,you get better at...makes more sense to me.
Level scaling...maybe have that with certain enemies etc,but dont build the game on that alone.
Like replacing a wolf with a minator etc.There should always be enemies that are a challenge without doing that....maybe a mix of both,i don't know..but it needs looking at.
Say there is a certain area where wolves are,keep wolves there,no matter what level you are,maybe have more there,or random other enemies every now & then,but dont replace the wolves.I'm sure some of you have a better idea on this ( scaling )...but like i said i like the concept of what you use /do etc ,you get better at....PLEASE dont do like fallout.
As one or two of mentioned..also to me a true master at a skill...allow to go past a 100 etc. You could have a strong jack of all trades,but not a master of all trades...but a mage/wizard etc could be a true master at magic,because thats his/her's main focus,while a jack of all trades could'nt be a master of all,because he/she is focusing on many things...i think you get the point.
Anyway i've rambled enough

So...basically you're an Oblivion junky who thinks everything in Oblivion is better than it was in Morrowind.
Alrighty.
You're actually quite wrong on the fast travel part, anyway. Oblivion does in fact center around fast travel, the quest center around fast travel, and obviously transportation does, because..it's the only way to travel? Besides a horse that your character can run faster than? Yeah..
You argue that TES is not a place for strategy, and that if you want strategy in a game we should "go play chess", to quote you? :rofl:
You are everything that the stereotypical Oblivion fan boy embodies. You think Oblivion did it bigger, and better, and that Morrowind was a step behind Oblivion. That's pretty much all there is to say here.

Duly noted.

Now get back to work.

Don't have time to respound to all of the thread starter's points.
So I'll make it Quick

1. Quest markers - Liked the toggle idea (optional), but if we get stuck having markers I would prefer them only to appear in explored area's of the map, i.e. if the map is unexplored the marker doesn't show up until you get close.

2. Fast travel - prefer Morrowind's system better then Oblivion's fast travel, It’s encourages you to explores and rewards you at the same time. But I value your points you have made, I not going to dog oblivion's travel system, seeing that I used it alot after a quest was over and it didn't really effect the game play that much for me.


3. Levelling - As your player levelling, I agree with you 95%. I would like to see several diff ways to boost your stats, not just training and fighting (I like cheating and loop holes). As far as enemy's I would like to see some enemys stay the same and others level with you to some degree.

4. Start - My solution for the start/tutorial is to make it optional, I really don’t care what they do to the story line start.

5. Add favorite weapon - the more the better, but no guns please!

6. Encumberance/Strength - I'll leave this one up to beth. Just don't bring back the weighted money from Tes 2.

7. Shop gold - My solution is have a ability to own your own shop, hire/train staff and have them sell your stuff for you. The econemy of the town should be have an effect on what items get sold the most. If your shop keeper sells an item that you need, you can track down the buyer (creating a side quest) and make him an offer he can't refuse. As far as other merchants either system from the last two TES would be fine, I like the fact that merchants had business hours in Oblivion.

8. Lockpicking - I'd like a dice roll based on your skill, not a mini game.

You've gotten some rough replies. The General Discussion thread does tend to be a hive of ravenous Morrowind fans, of which I am a slavering drone. But, despite your differing opinion, you seem like a bright young man who is at least able to enunciate your arguments, and I don't think you've been given credit for that. So please, allow me to retort:


1. Quest markers-

Being frustrated by looking for a location is part of the fun. It increases the enjoyment of finding your objective, and gives you a sense of accomplishment. Furthermore, this is what happens in the real world, barring GPS, and even then there are always the issue of accuracy and missed exits. Most importantly, however, this is rarely an issue. Most directions are straightforward, some a little less so. But when I play Oblivion I am literally on autopilot. I look at the compass, not the screen. And because the game relies on the compass, you are rarely given directions accurate enough to function without it. And as far as Bethesdas argument that without it you could not find wandering NPCs, I call BS. How did the reporter find you for the interview where you spouted that line? That's right. He called. And talked to someone. And they said "Yea, Todd's over here." NPCs could do that to, if the devs felt like investing the time.

2. Fast travel-
Me: While I can see where they're coming from, there's nothing in Oblivion that forces you to fast travel, or only fast travel between cities. Oblivion's also pretty big, and it can be a pain to get to somewhere (especially in the Jerall Mountains). Morrowind was even bigger, with much wider and more open (with some areas also being much more difficult to climb sans levitation).

Actually, you've just given one reason there. Morrowind was smaller than Oblivion. It only felt bigger because you could not instantly teleport across vast regions of space and time.

My solution: If you don't like fast travel, you don't have to use it. I wouldn't mind seeing a transport network set up, perhaps even a quest or three defending a cart/silt strider/whatever using ranged and/or melee attacks. But please don't get rid of fast travel.

The problem is, it's a self fulfilling prophecy. They DIDN'T set up a transport network, because you had instant fast travel. So you DID have to use it, unless you wanted to crawl across the whole map, which you're right, isn't always fun. But a system of boats, carriages, w/e is the best because it is realistic and immersive. There are plenty of games where there is little thought given to travel, like God of War. I want one game where I can see myself journeying across distant lands. Just one.

3. Levelling- I've seen people beg for a different levelling system. Modders have replied with the XP levelling system, removing the cap of 100 for stats and skills, and all +5 stat increases (and stuff in between). I think that's awesome.
Me: I think hitting something just to level up a skill or my level is EXTREMELY boring. Blocking an attack repeatedly for skill levelling is even more so.

Well, if you've played a sport or learned an instrument or language or anything else, the training can be boring. Sure, this is a game and should try to eliminate the boring parts of RL. It does. Gaining 100 in Athletics is much easier in ES than the real world equivalent. Otherwise they might as well just give you 100 in all skills at the beginning of the game. But that eliminates the purpose of an RPG in terms of character growth, it just becomes an action game like Halo where you play someone who is already god like in power to begin with.

My solution: This one, I've got none. I'd kinda like to see XP enter into the game, especially for finding locations through exploration (and killing stuff. Incentives for indiscriminate killing of people/monsters I don't like are always welcomed). Using said XP to supplement your skills/stats/levels would be great. But as an "immersion factor," I'd still like to see the basic Elder Scroll levelling system of use skill, advance in skill, advance in major skills, level up, to take the center stage.

Frankly, I HATE "xp." I don't know who was the first person to use it in a game, but they weren't very bright. It's basically fake money for doing stuff that you can use to make you better at doing stuff. Or, how about, you get better at doing stuff, by doing stuff. This was one of the main ideas behind TES and frankly, it is one of their best. Use a longsword, get better at using a longsword, instead of "Kill a wolf with a longsword, gain 50 xp, apply 50 xp to your magic skill."

4. Start- Look, I believe that change would be nice here, so it's not like I have a fresh viewpoint here. Having the same exact start and start option is boring as all get out. Play through it enough times, unable to make major path changes, and the game just becomes extremely boring. How many times do you want to do the Mage's Guild Recommendations, or saving Kvatch, or running through an Oblivion gate to close it?

I feel like this isn't something that was really changed from Morrowind to Oblivion, it just kind of, is. My problem with the Oblivion start was that it threw you right into the Main Quest. The Emperor himself tells you to shut that g*ddamn gate, right the hell now. In Morrowind, even after you talk to the first guy in the Questline, he's all "Slow down, join a guild, buy a sword."

5. Add favorite weapon- I've heard complaints that weapon XXX didn't appear in Oblivion. People who like weapon XXX were rightly disappointed. Enough said about their viewpoint.
Me: I like swords. I like bows. I like shields. I like magic. As long as these don't disappear, my character won't be disappointed. I never use the blunt weapon category, and I never used spears in Morrowind. I don't do hand-to-hand in Oblivion, although I felt there was meaning to h2h in Morrowind. The only reason I'd like more weapon types in the game is to add to the immersion and force me to use some strategy in attacking.

This reminds me of something someone said about the Nazis. First they came for the Jews, and I did nothing because I was not a Jew. Then they came for the Communists, but I did nothing because I wasn't a Communist. Then they came for me, and there was no one left to do anything.

The fact is, removing any type of content is a step back. To compare to action games again, Morrowind had let's say, 100 weapons. Halo had 10. Oblivion had 50 weapons, Halo 2 had 25. Is that really where you want your RPG headed?

6. Encumberance/Strength-

Real life swords weigh about 2 pounds. And if by "made to actually be used" you mean "to kill people" I don't think they make those swords in Japan, either. But you are pretty much right. Most people figure that the weight system in TES is somewhere like 1/4 of a pound, it's just a placeholder showing you how much you can hold. Frankly, I still think it's too much. For instance, because swords weigh two pounds, and assuming I can carry 50 pounds, that means I could, in Oblivion, carry 25 swords and still run around, although slowly. Now, imagine having 25 swords bundled up and on your back. That might be a problem.

7. Shop gold-

I actually think both games had it wrong. Morrowind was a little closer to reality, but there were still no high end buyers who could give you more than a couple thousand for a daedric weapon worth 20,000. Either cheapen the price, or up the buyers gold.

8. Lockpicking-

I dislike the minigame. Morrowind's lockpicking was logically consistent. You don't enter a minigame when you attack someone with a sword (that's called turn based combat, and it's lame) so why would you enter a minigame to pick a lock? Not to mention that you can't actually see inside a lock like that, which I know is just a representation, but someone with RL lockpicking skill of 5 could not know that much about a lock. Also, the lockpicks themselves. Because of how the game worked, you could easily go through 50 lockpicks if you auto attempted. Do you think REAL thieves would carry around 50 lockpicks? Think of how much noise that would make. Morrowind had a much more believable system. You have your Novice picks, Master picks, probes, etc. It's like a real burglar's kit, with half a dozen specialized tools, all kept in a neat leather pouch. Actually there is no pouch, except with the power of my imagination.

Also, I dislike M'aiq, at least in Oblivion. It's funny in Morrowind when he talks about how there are dragons, they're just invisible. Because Beth will almost NEVER put a dragon in a game, for any reason. In Oblivion, he talks about how there are no spears or crossbows, because the developers heard the fan backlash but it was too late to do anything about it. That's not funny, that's just sad. They made a bad decision and decided to laugh about it, like some rich kid getting into a car drunk and crashing, but getting off the hook because of daddy's money.

Fast travel isn't the only thing that made oblivion feel smaller despite it's larger size. Much of Vvardenfell's landscape was impassable, and without levitation you would have to spend a good amount of time trekking to find the path to an adjacent foyoda or some such. Cyrodiil is very easy to navigate, with very few obstacles to navigation outside of water bodies and the mountainous natue of it's border regions.

So...basically you're a Morrowind junky who thinks everything in Morrowind is better than it was in Oblivion.
Alrighty.
You are everything that the stereotypical Morrowind fan boy embodies. You think Morrowind did it bigger, and better, and that Oblivion was a step behind Morrowind. That's pretty much all there is to say here.

Maybe i'm half stereotypical. I think Oblivion did it bigger, but Morrowind did it better.

This stuff right here is probably why I keep coming back to these forums. :wub:

Well first off, you should have made these debates in the forum you were reading them. We can loose the flavour of the debate in how it came. Why it needed it's own I am not shure, since there are a few out there already. But you did write it well written so I will try and debate you. Debating is fun.

I agree with you here. They should be toggable. But what people forget is, that Oblvion is not static, so that is why we need the map marker indicators. Just imagine the people who argue that they do not want map indicators. Just imagine what they would be posting that they can't find So and So. He was at his home in the morning but by lunch he can be out in the fields. They would never be abel to find him. For me to take these people seriouisly, that would mean they never ever used the map quests at all. Not even once. Using it once sort of defeats their argument.

I am am both. I would like the option to turn it off, but to say that it shouldn't be in the game is wrong. Lots of people do not like walking or playing 4 hours of real life time just to find a wandering NPC. If that is what someone likes to do, good for them, but don't say it shouldn't be in the game, and everyone else has to suffer.

There are times I want it, there are times I do not want it. So it should be toggable in the options screen.


I love Morrowind. It's one of my favorite if not favorit game of all time. I hated the fast travel system in Morrowind. Too many times working 12+ hours a day and so little time to play, is all I wanted to do was play. I didn't want to just walk or travel. Too many nites, I would load my game, spent 1/2 hour walking to my destination and then saving it again because time to sleep or go to work or do what ever real life called. So I love Oblivions system.

There is no reason why say TES can not have Stilt Riders or their equivilent or mages teleportation like Morrowind and have what they had in Daggerfall, when you fast traveled it costed you money. You can make it to your destination sooner if you choose to use a carriage or ship to get there. More money less time. Also it would be great for people who do not like this system to have an option to toggle this on or off. So this way Fast travel dosnt cost you money if you so choose it. Hell make it the default setting and let us turn the other system on.



I am sorry to say, but because of people like you, I had my fun lessended. I would say you are playing the wrong game, and go else where. There now that is out of the way, you have your opnion, here is mine. I love that if you want to become better in shield that you would have to use it to make it better. I hate the Diablo system or what ever is when you kill someone with say a sword you get experiance points and magically your stealth or magic is better but all you used is your sword and nothing else. Want better in sneaking? Train or use your sneak, do not use your sword to get better in sneaking. Want better in levitating? Train or practice in Alteration. Do not use your sword so you can levitate better.


I never played the other games, so I do not know how they start. But I like the idea of this. This sort of sounds like Arean. When you start a new game and get out of the prision you never start in the same province. Thing is, you usually end up in the same way. Go to this province to to this quest, all the time. So who knows, maybe making the main quest the same, but the locations can change. Who knows, maybe make the MQ have say 3 options to it, but every game is different so you have one of the three options avaliable. For example, we will use Oblivion, once you get out of the sewers, you have the option A) go to Jauffree as normal, B) you are told to go to Kvatch C) you are hired or some other way sent somewhere to do something that will start the main quest. You do not have the option to choose what to do, it will be randomly selected what for you to do, so this game when you start a new game, it is played differently. in one game, you go see Jauffre as normal. Next game you play, you are told nothing of Jauffree but are directed to go to Kvatch and once there, your main quest starts, or you are told nothing but someone hires you for a quest, wich ends you in Kvatch and then you start the MQ that way. I am not shure if that is what you ment.

Again not shure what you mean here. Just because you do not like something, we have to suffer for it? You like shields, you like magic so if it dosn't disappera you are happy. Since you do not use blunt you don't care if it's gone in the next game? So that means people who do like blunt have to suffer because you don't use it? I am not shure what you mean. I don't get your M'aiq the Liar solution. You comment of if I want more strategy, I sould play chess? Why don't you frack off and if you want less strategy go play Mario Kart. Comments like this is the reason why Oblvion was dummed down and hand holding. Because of people like you and your comments. Sorry for being mean there, but that is an insult for me or anyone who loves to have more options in TES and strategy in their TES games and go and be told to go play chess then. Sorry you are so wrong with that comment.



I agree with you here mostly. Nobody said the unit of encumbernce is in pounds or kilograms or what ever. I just find it funny that you say igonre the complainers. Are you not complaining about people complaining? So shouldn't you be ignored as well? What about people on the console? There is no ~tgm for us. To ignore us makes your comments less able to take serious. Just because you play on the PC many don't. Their considerations should be taken as well.


Ah I think I see your M'aiq the Liar option is. Thing is you really can't do both. That would mean they are making 2 games. Choose one or the other, or think of something new. Just don't say make it toggable, since these two options are so different. I do not like Oblivions system because, how can I sell something for max 2000 gold and I can keep selling stuff. That would mean if I had all my inventory on me, I can sell everything and make 10 billion gold coins in one day because his money dosn't run out. That just ruins the barter system for me.


I agree with you what you said about lock picking. I do not know why your are comparing the mini game to Morrowind. Morrowind did not have a mini game for lockpicking.

Your last sentence, makes no sense to me. Why bother saying you mae say anything else or not. Does this mean you will not come back and make more comments? If that is the case then why even bother posting this if you will not respond to what we post? You also no more than you tell? So what? Are you that full of yourself? That is all I see from that remark. I see no humour in there at all. What you have posted was well written until your last sentence. You just sound like a little kid trying to be older and tougher than he or she really is.

quest markers: get rid of these, these are for hack and slay games, not for open world rpgs and they are the main reason for oblivion not holding the top spot over morrowind!
also, the compass made playing oblivion pretty boring and flat. you were basically just running around the map, waiting for some symbols popping up on your compass, showing you the next dungeon to raid...

fast travel: really breaks the game! apart from the travel times being pretty unrealistic(yes, travel from anvil to leyawiin on foot! guess how long it takes! and you don't even have to rest en route!

levelling: so you bring some poor girl her rabbit back and use the experience gained to improve your marksman skill? come on, this is just lame!
shoot stuff with the bow --> increase in marksman
running around --> higher athletics
thats the way it needs to be. adding regional injuries, tiring of single body parts(e.g. you block 5 strikes of a heavy warhammer and your left arm will be unable to perform any movement for some time) and add a new fatigue system (2 fatigue bars, one for sprinting, fighting etc. and one for long term fatigue which determines, when you got to rest or at least wait for some time or you pass out) would make fighting, training and overall getting xp a little bit more challenging.

start: don't mind that much about that but the main quest should start with some investigation etc. and not with a "hurry to do this or we will be doomed!!!" which will be said at game start and repeated for the next part after every single mission of the main quest, giving the player up to no time to interrupt the main quest without breaking immersion... god, how I hated oblivion for that...

weapons: I WANT SPEARS BACK THEY WERE FUN! also bring back broadswords, tantos, wakizashis, staves, crossbows and all the stuff!

encumbrance: whatever you got on you be it equipped shields, swords or armor/clothing should only count half towards your encumbrance. just for the reason, having a full set of armor in the backpack is probably gonna make you break down pretty fast while wearing said armor will not hinder you that much.

shop gold: well, even with the explaination, how the shop gold may be meant, in oblivion, you can get like a few million gold from a merchant. In morrowind, it's pretty much like the merchant giving you everything he has for your stuff which is fail too. There should be some calculation which takes your merchantile into account, so with like 40 pt merchantile, the vendor would like cap at 80% of his max gold and refuse to pay you more gold.

Lockpicking: to be honest, I dislike both systems. Oblivion system might be better if it was way harder. on low lev, there should be way more problems for you, when attempting to pick a lock like the lockpick just shaking randomly.

I was counting on the fact that you specifically, or Seti, would quote me saying this exact thing. :clap:
God you amuse me.
Now, to show you how wrong you are.
I loved Morrowind, it was the game I played first, and it was the first game I felt like I was actually immersed in a world.
Then I played Oblivion, with those expectations, and was hugely disappointed, as were most people.
Where you're wrong, though, lies in your "fix" of my first comment in the thread. You say, "You think Morrowind did it bigger, and better, and that Oblivion was a step behind Morrowind."
Lol. I've never, ever, said that Oblivion was a step behind Morrowind in every way. In a lot of ways it is, you'd seriously have to be just inept to not realize that, what with the mainstreaming of the game, the removal of any complexity whatsoever, dice rolls, the merging of armors, the mainstreaming of stats, the removal of some abilities, need I go on? But you, as a hardcoe OBLIVION OH MY GOD fan, cannot admit this to save your life. I can, however, because I'm not biased towards either one.
The difference between me and you is, I can admit both games flaws, you can only admit Morrowinds flaw, and say how much better Oblivion is. And that's why this is just so funny to me. You can't admit that Oblivion is dumbed down and mainstreamed, even though the general consensus of pretty much everyone, game reviews, etc, say that it is mainstreamed.
Morrowind had it's flaws, and so did Oblivion. Oblivion just had different flaws, and anytime me, or anyone else here, attempts to point them out, people like you go absolutely insane.

Glad I could oblige. :icecream:

EDIT: I'm so terribly sorry I'm not a mind reader. I suppose when I only see praise for one game, and nothing but criticism for the other, I'm inclined to think that the poster thinks the first game is near-perfect and the second game is garbage. Again, so sorry. I can understand how me taking what you say at face value would be terribly bothersome. I've pointed out my grievances with Oblivion several times, I wonder if you can point out a single thing you think it did well (other than improving the graphics).

Read my edited post before replying, as I hit submit on accident before finishing. I'd love to hear your reply.

I replied to your edited version.

I can point out many things that Oblivion did better than Morrowind.
-AI
-The entire stealth system was leaps and bounds better than Morrowinds. Morrowinds stealth system was terrible.
-Archery system, Marksman in general. Using a bow is actually viable in Oblivion, not so much in MW.
-Having a way to travel on foot rather than..your feet. Horses were a great addition to the series.
-Voice acting was a nice touch, although I do also like reading.
-Skill perks, including armor perks and weapon perks, and magicka cost reduced for having higher skill.

6 things off the top of my head, and there are more, just can't think of them right now. I don't think Oblivion was a 100% terrible game. But overall, to me personally, Morrowind was better, and suits my playstyle more.
That doesn't mean that it wasn't a step back in many areas, however, and that it wasn't mainstreamed. Because it was.

Oh, and blocking too. Being able to manually block instead of just stand there was good. But not having dice rolls for combat was stupid.

Everyone forgets yielding!!

I only mention it because no one else ever seems to and there was no yielding in Fallout 3. Just people getting scared and running away now and then. NOT an alternative to yielding.

I don't mind quest markers, however they should be toggleable, and they should really only lead you as far as the information you received could possibly get you. If you were looking for a specific person, and someone just said "that guy is in Bruma" then the quest marker points to Bruma. However, once you get to Bruma, it disappears. Now, if someone gave you the info "that guy is in Bruma, and spends much of his day either in the chapel or in his home behind the chapel," then you get two markers: one for the chapel, the other for his house behind the chapel. For places and people who reside outside cities, there should just be a highlighted area on the map which has an area that reflects the amount of information you have on the position of said place or person. It is very strange that I can not only pinpoint places I have never seen, but also know people that I have never had contact with before. Why should my quest marker point directly to some guy I have never met? How do I know that guy, unless someone pointed at him and said "thats the guy"?

As far as levelling, the concrete "hard levels" are completely unnecessary. They are really just there for scaling purposes. I would much rather they built player attributes into actions by the character (if I read every book I can get my hands on, study the schools of magic, etc., my intelligence should increase, running a lot should make my endurance rise, something similar for other attributes). The real allure of the TES levelling system is that skills increase as you use them. I feel attributes should be the same.

And I hate to disagree with you betrayer, but dice rolls in combat is stupid. If I watch my sword tear through something, I shouldn't get a message that says "you missed." That makes no sense. However, I would like not only my skills, but the skills of my opponents to be apparent as well. If the guy I am fighting has an excellent block skill, and my blade skill is low, the guy should be easily able to raise his shield and block my attack, especially if the opponent has high strength. Don't leave attacks up to RNG, but rather up to a world that is dynamic and enemies that have unique skills.

If you are replying to me....then maybe you mis-understand me or i've explained wrong.
I love morrowind as much as oblivion,hell, i even like some things better.But the fact is...its been a very long time since i played morrowind,so remembering some things is difficult at the moment....i was just giving ideas on how to improve from oblivion,because i remember that more ( not because its better or worse,but because its fresher to remember for me ).
Like i said oblivions scaling & leveling system is'nt perfect...its needs alot of work.I just like the concept of what you use repeatadly,you get better at...but not just that alone...like i said ,it needs to be worked on. I did'nt like just having fast travel in oblivion...yeah people can say "dont use it",but the temptation is always there,make it optional,& add other transport options ...like morrowind....i'm not just an oblivion fan boy.
I love other peoples opinions,whether they agree or disagree...its great...what i dont like is people jumping to conclusions,without thinking first.
I'm not sure ( like i said ) if this was aimed at me....if not then i apologise.