Is your mouse equipped with a scroll wheel? Do you know how to use it?


And Morrowind's pre-expansion journal is pertinent to the issue of Skyrim's journal.... exactly how?


Do you really not know?

In the first case, you point your character at the marker and you go. In the second case, you look at the road you're on, check the signs, compare it with the map, find the destination, see what direction it is from where you are now, go back to the game, check the compass, then go. Along the way, you might need to refer back to the map and reorient yourself with the aid of the compass and make sure that you're still on the right road and still heading in the right direction.

I can certainly understand how that latter might be too irksome, confusing or time-consuming for some people (which is why I have no problem at all with including toggleable map markers), but I can't even begin to imagine how anyone could even attempt to argue that there's no difference at all between them.

I like the idea of self written journal, good mod idea... but the problem is it would be such a pain on the counsel versions of the game... And as Bukee stated, important facts could be missed if we had to write them down ourselves...

as a speculative idea... penmanship could be a skill, where you catch more details that they say as you do more quests, like they hit its a trap but without a certain speech-craft and a high enough penmanship things get spelled right and misleading quests can be pointed out ahead of time... nah... but could be done interestingly...

Yes
Other
Yes

As for the journal, I don't care about taking notes, but it could certainly be redone somehow.
And I don't care if other people get the magic arrow if I can turn it off!
Most importantly I like options...

I don't really care much for markers, unless they point me EXACTLY to what my objective is within a cave system.

I can explore at my own leisure, i don't need a marker to constantly mock me by saying "Haha... you can't get to me!".
Now if they tell me to find me a Dwemer box... :brokencomputer:

I would completely agree with those who simply desire a toggleable quest marker, but in Oblivion this was not feasible for two reasons.

The obvious first was that there was no toggleable function built-in to the game.

But the second is that the game was built around extremely linear, marked paths. If you wanted to go somewhere outdoors, there would be a green marker, but say you entered the dungeon before going to that marker--the journal would never update, and in some cases that would break the quest. This didn't happen all of the time, but it did cause problems, I remember. Basically, the issue is that the developers did not account for multiple scenarios--they forced you into a particular scenario. In Oblivion, you're not really supposed to exit the dungeon the way you came out if there is another exit. You're not supposed to teleport anywhere.

If the developers thought more about the various methods people would try to beat quests, this would greatly solve the problem. Rather than put quest triggers in front of doors or upon entering a dungeon, just put a trigger on whether the player entered that particular cell or not--this way, whether one is cheating or entering the cave legitly, there aren't any problems. More dynamic gameplay would be much appreciated--rather than follow the journal, the journal should follow you.

And I absolutely love what someone had to say about the journal only displaying information that you have obtained. I can't tell you the number of times that I laughed out loud because the journal told me that I had somehow inferred something that personally I most definitely did not and never would have inferred from the information that was available.

best would be an in-game journal and a journal included with preorders

I'm okay with the quest markers, I especially prefer them when the quest giver knows exactly where I need to go, directions can be misinterpreted, landmarks can be misunderstood, but a mark on a map cannot by any means be misunderstood or misinterpreted.

Of course when the actual quest is to find something, and the quest giver has only a general idea where that is, than I'm fine with it not being given a quest marker, I would like a mark of the general area, but other than that, I'm fine.

I would very much like the developers not to replace it with a real journal, then it just starts to become too much simulation rather than roleplay.

I don't feel skyrim has too much handholding.

I actually love seeing my list of completed quests rise, and really appreciate a list showing my current quests when I have accepted over 5 of them at a time, which I constantly do. Half the time the location you need to go to is waaaaay away from where you initially started the quest, so relying on obscure directions would just be annoying. I hate wandering in circles trying to figure out if that NPC meant the "cave near the tree that's completely tipped over or the one near the slightly bent tree?"

As for complete instructions on what to do when you get there, well half the time it's go there kill this, or go there retrieve this. So if there wasn't anything telling you what to do in the quest description you would know 100% what you needed to do from the quest giver. The only problem with that is, you might not want to complete that quest right away or don't have time to and when you do want to come back to it, you would have most likely forgotten what the task was and would have to hunt down the quest giver to ask him again. So once again, when you have a lot of quests activated, it's nice to have a list with descriptions just so you can keep on track. It's not hand holding, it's convenience.

One of the only games I've played that doesn't hold your hand in what exactly you have to do next and where you have to do it, is Amenesia. And it only works in Amnesia because you are confined to certain sections of the mansion at a time, and aren't stuck wandering an entire open gameworld looking for clues. The Witcher 2 also doesn't tell you exactly what to do for a lot of side quests, but once again you are confined to a very small portion of the gameworld at one time, a much smaller region than the entire world of Skyrim.

It doesn't matter to me if there is a journal or not. I don't need it to survive, now does it make things easier yes but I don't really want to be running around in circles for hours looking for a particular cave when it's right in front of my nose and a marker would easily identify it.

Why act childishly offended when logical arguments are being given and taken around?

I hope they do not include the compass markers on the HUD at all, and just give us enough journal directions and NPC guidance and Clairvoyance spell.

Please, just open your mind a bit and read what I'm going to write here without prejudice, and imagine that you are a first time TES player and do not know Morrowind and Oblivion:

=== === === === ===

You, as a newbie player, have joined a guild, and a quest giver in the guild has just given you a task to perform:

Quest giver: Find the "Elvenbane Axe" in the "Nihilus Keep".

You ask a few guild members and find out that "Nihilus Keep" is probably south west of the "Scorched Catacombs", so you open your map and find the catacombs on that, and plan a route there, or simply use a "Scroll of relocation" to jump to the catacombs, and head south west.

In the route you find a traveling NPC and ask her if she can help you find the target keep, and she points toward a direction and tells you to keep going that way, but you bribe her, or sweet talk her to guide you toward the target, and she agrees to come along a bit.

She falls in front of you and you start to follow her in the route, until she stops and points towards a small keep, half hidden behind the large mountain in front of you and tells you that it is your target, and departs.

=== === === === ===

You enter the keep, and try to look around and find the item on your own, or decide to give up and use your clairvoyance spell and with its help find the axe.

You cast a spell and the avatar of your unconscious half-draconic inner self appears in front on you and beckons you to follow him, and you follow your inner self until finally its time is up so that it stops on the track, and point you toward a direction to follow, and disappears into a wisp of smoke.

You follow the direction and try to find the axe on your own, or decide to cast the spell again, and again you follow the avatar of your inner self, until he stands beside the item, and points toward it.

=== === === === ===

Now compare it with Oblivion's implementation:

Quest giver: Find the "Elvenbane Axe" in the "Nihilus Keep".

You open the map, there it is, marked on your map, so you click on a nearby visited place, and teleport to it, then follow the compass markers until you reach the door steps of Nihilus keep and enter it and continue following the aforementioned markers, until you are standing right beside the item. Note that I did not write about the opposition found in the middle.

=== === === === ===

Without prejudice and without closing your mind to new ideas, please tell me which method gives us the most satisfaction that we have achieved something in the game, and finished a task?

Which method gives us the more opportunities to perceive and interact with the game environment and its population, and let us be immersed in the game?

Please imagine both methods in your mind, and live with them once, before you try to response.

I've never played Morrowind. Were there actually Scrolls of Teleportation and Clairvoyance, and inner-demon summoning spells?

all I want is directions and I'm good

I hated the GPS marker in OB, as for the journal I don't really care since I have a good memory and I pretty much memorize everything and rarely use it.

No they are http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1207074-how-to-have-a-cake-and-eat-it-too, and I'm going to implement them in via a mod, if not in.

Edit: By the way, in the example around I did not suggest reading the journal, and finding the place yourself, as it would have scared the man away, I just suggested NPC guidance, and my version of clairvoyance, which is a method that I hope that could replace ON-SCREEN GPS markers, with immersive IN-GAME equivalents.

Sadly, I doubt this well-thought thing would ever happen, since developers, in my educated opinion, do not play the game as much as they merely "test" it.

Gotta love all of the pointless comments by people complaining about the size of the post.

as long as GPS of death is out

Lord of the rings without GPS ....... *epic music* leads to an epic adventure of unlimited scale

Lord of the rings with GPS ...... *Epi....* ring destroyed the end LAME

ok here is another one

Skyrim GPS system:

quest 1: find a guy in the woods he stole my ring and I want him dead.....

***
***
***
GPS system activated welcome commander *feminine computer voice*

Tracking your target please wait

***
***
***
Target located at coordinates 56-77

target height 176 cm, target is wearing *scanning* ....... metal armor ...... iron...... wool fabric...... blue underwear.

target threat level minimal

target eye color.... gray..... stomach content...... 3 weightless carrots..... and partially digested apple.

target farting output...... 4% methan per hour.

target is on the move using satellite up-link to tack him on you LCD compass


:confused:

:facepalm:

I didn't really mind the journal entries so much (but yes they did treat you like an idiot), it was the way they popped up on the screen so you couldn't avoid them. Like you have a quest to go to Trollbollock cave or whatever to find some item and as you approach it the journal pops up with "I've reached Trollbollock cave, I should proceed inside." Really? Is that what I should do? Gee thanks. It stopped irking me so much when I found a mod to stop it popping up, AND a mod to turn off the quest point, AND a mod to turn off points of interest.

I will be playing Skyrim on the 360 so I won't be able to mod it so I really hope it will be different, but I can live with the journal treating me like a moron, I just hope you can turn the quest marker and points of interest off.

Unfortunately the text messages check-list was incessant in virtually every quest in OB, I'm confident this will be addressed better in Skyrim *crosses fingers*

no quest compass thing when in first/third person mode, or optional with custom transparency ... have it on the map if marked by an npc.

Lol awesome

Lord of the rings with GPS your wish is my command!!

http://www.arda-online.com/map/


(yes this is actually in game too xD)

they said that they will be trying to make it where you can get mods off of xbox live and psn, but they said it wouldn't release in time for the games release. but they will make one

you mistaken... but ok whatever makes you feel happy!!

I did, it's the same thing.

In both cases you're given a clear direction, the dungeon is not a mystical, forgotten place, they might as well mark it on your map if you ask around.
If it is on the map, there's absolutely no reason why it shouldn't show up on the hud as a direction.
And how is asking directions different? You ask the person, they point into the direction, you head that way. It oddly sound like following an arrow, doesn't it?

Using a "scroll of translocation" other than just fast traveling, won't make it any better, it will just cost you a minimal amount of gold (the guilds will also probably give it out like candy and every second enemy will drop one anyway...)

And I still don't get this clairvoyance soul thingie...
What's wrong with following the path that leads to the unknown, and if something weird happens, like it goes trough a wall or something you'll have to figure out what to do. Why is a man pointing somewhere better? And again, how is it different than an arrow on the hud?!
Or is this just about "immersion"? If so, then it's completely pointless, because you might as well add an immersive indicator to everything else in the menu. Health, Magicka, stamina, encumbrancer, how many arrows you have in your quiver, how strong your sword is, your entire inventory, your skills, your perks, the options, the main menu...

And it's funny how I'm the close minded, because I cannot make a difference between a quest marker and the "Simon says" style detailed directions, people are asking for.
In Morrowind, there were two types of directions, one is the really detailed one, mostly at the beginning and for the main quest and some more vague ones that are about as good as the Oblivion directions without the quest markers...

This. I don't mind quest markers. I do mind that they treat me as if I am a complete moron, and I do mind that there is no feasible alternative if you are not using them.

Personally with Clairvoyance, I don't see why Bethesda would have Quest Markers. It seems superfluous.