My love for The Elder Scrolls are slightly marred by the fact that the in-game Journal is in fact NOT a journal. It is instead a 'instruction' manual to tell you what to do. This was compounded by the Quest-Marker which showed you where to go. These two factors turned Oblivion into an on-the-rails game packaged into a sandbox world.

Let me elaborate: I want to go find that mysterious cave myself from the directions the villagers gave me, slay the monsters/bandits inside and return the golden fleece back to the village to collect my reward.

But what I found in Oblivion was: *Quest-Marker would hold my hand and show me where to go whilst the 'Journal' would tell me what to do, how to find it and where to take it. And to cap it off, I would get regular text messages telling me which quest I have completed to pat me on the back to give me that feeling of accomplishment. And god forbid I decide NOT to return the golden fleece. The Quest would FOREVER be un-completed in my journal, permanently.

I hope this doesn't roll-over too much into Skyrim.

I'm a advlt and I'm assuming so are the majority of ES roleplayers, do we really need our hands held this much in a RPG game, and do we really need 'Pats on the Backs' to get that feeling of accomplishment via the 'Check-List' which is the Journal?

Of course this is my own personal opinion. I would love to hear yours. Or maybe a better system of addressing this.

PS. Civil discussions/comments please, save the teddy and pram moments for the playground

*This quest is just a metaphor device and not an actual quest. Please don't go exploring around Oblivion looking for this fabled Golden Fleece, it doesn't exist Lots of love, Son Do x

Another one of these threads/ polls ............ use search next time

Yes. No. No.

Considering the size of the game world and the amount of quests, trying to keep track of them without a journal would be really damn hard. Even Morrowind had a journal, albeit with less info. Plus, a self-written journal would be the bane of controllers for console players. Way too tedious.

As for the quest marker.. eh, I don't mind either way, really. I'd be lying if I said I didn't like it, but I suppose that's because the oblivion quests were built around the marker.

Edit: Spelling.

Oblivion style journal entries if you have bothered to get someone's disposition up enough for them to be forthcoming, Morrowind style vague directions if they are not so taken with you. And if you are an Altmer who has just asked a Nord in the street without saying hello first, then by north they mean West.
Nothing wrong with '"let me mark that on your map" if they like you, but in-dungeon markers? No ta.

The only information I need is a map, good directions and a marker stating where I'm standing at the current time. With that information there is no way to get lost. I don't need a GPS leading me by the hand from point A to point B and then once in the dungeon leading me even further to what I'm looking for.

As far as an ingame journal? I'm fine with that. In that journal I want my good directions so I can look back at it to make sure I'm heading where I should be heading.

Is there too much hand holding? HELL YES. Before long it's no longer going to be an RPG, just an interactive movie.

Me i dont want to take anything away from gamers that like features like quest markers i just want the abilty to toggle more features.The journal is fine let me toggle the markers i like getting lost adventurers get lost .

I'd prefer it if directions to locations were recorded in the journal. That way I could set the current quest to something irrelevant in order to disable the quest compass, and try to find my way there by the directions.

If, as happened in Morrowind a few times, the directions were obscure (or just plain wrong) then I could avoid hours of frustration by turning the quest compass back on.

As for having a log of currently open quests, completed quests etc., then, yes, I like having that. I tend to be a bit of a quest bumblebee, browsing from NPC to NPC in a town, wandering into taverns, and building up a huge list of quests. It's nice to be able to keep track of them, and I sure as hell wouldn't remember to write them all down during the game.

As for instructions on how to complete the quests... that's a difficult one. For instance, generic NPC Bob tells me his cousin Joe has stolen the family heirloom and gone to another town. Two days later I happen to come across cousin Joe and get the heirloom back. Except... damn, who the hell wanted this? Fred? Daphne? And where in my bulging and disorganised journal IS the note of who gave me the quest?

So, yes, some sort of current note about how to progress a given quest can be useful.

There is a journal available. It is shown in the G4 E3 Demo, in the Map area. If you press start, in the Map UI you open your journal. I don't mind this.
For questions:
1 Yes
2 No
3 No

Edit:
I think it would be neat to jot down your notes, but it is not in my list of requirements for Skyrim questing to be enjoyable.

Edit 2:
I don't mind Quest Markers, since Morrowind had some big problems with directions (even if people liked you), but I could do without them.
I prefer either way, doesn't matter, only voted yes for first question because I still want a journal feel to my Quests. Realistically, following a quest giver's markings seem okay, although Oblivion didn't clearly show it, it meant to be kind of like NPCs giving you a path to follow, or a "as-the-crow-flies" directional advice. I like it this way, but if Skyrim had no quest markers, I'm sure Bethesda would make locations easier to find that in Morrowind.

Pretty much This.

Btw, your username is full of win.

Definitely too much hand-holding in TES games...

I hate quest markers with a passion. Let me figure things out for myself!

For the second vote, i would say other. Maybe have speechcraft have an effect of information you get from someone. The higher your speech craft the more that is written in the journal

I think this would be an intelligent feature. Definitely add to immersion, and how much you could trust directions.

I just want to turn off the quest marker... and actually have the option to do so successfully and not have them revolve around it.

Quest markers should be optional (could get handy if you are hopelessly lost:)

But generally: No, i don′t want to be have someone to hold my hand

They should replace GPS markers with NPC guidance and Clairvoyance, as I suggested in http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1207074-how-to-have-a-cake-and-eat-it-too.

ive seen a couple people post about morrowinds journals being vague compared to oblivions. :laugh:

just look up any quest journal entry in morrowind and it will give you detailed directions including turns and points of interest while oblivions journal entries consist of something like "west of skingrad". i think people are getting their games mixed up.

Yes, yes, yeeeees!

Make them optional. It doesn't hurt to allow the player to think. Trying to find your own way by given directions can be so much more satisfying.

Nah, just plug in a USB keyboard.

As I've said before - I want an in-game journal. I want that journal to record, verbatim, every piece of information I pick up anywhere that might be of use, I want it to allow me to categorize the information as I choose and cross-reference it however it might be beneficial - so I can jump from an entry on an item to the entry on the person who told me about it or the person who supposedly has it or the place it's supposed to be at or whatever else might be pertinent, and that's ALL I want that journal to do. There should not be ONE SINGLE WORD in the journal that didn't come from somewhere else - from a conversation, a note, a book, a sign - something. It's not the journal's freaking job to tell me what I've apparently decided I should do next and I swear that if this one does, just like Oblivion's did, I'm going to frisbee my disc through a window.

I hate the Oblivion "journal" even more than the quest markers. There aren't enough words to describe the depth of my loathing for that glorified in-game hint delivery system.

Morrowind's journal certainly wasn't vague compared to Oblivion's. However, in a few particular instances the directions in the Morrowind journal were too vague to be much use - and in a couple of cases were downright wrong.

If Bethesda put detailed directions to locations in Skyrim's journal then I'm sure (given the large number of locations) that at least a few entries will either be misleading, vague, or downright wrong. And for those occasions, and those occasions only, having the quest compass available would be useful. As the quest compass is driven by the game's map data, rather than someone writing up directions from landmarks, it is far easier for Bethesda to ensure it is correct, and so it makes a good fallback option.

Oh god, not this again...

First off the journal.
Morrowind's journal was one of the worst designed thing ever, it's not sorted at all, there are no connections shown, it's a giant mess. It was so bad in fact they had to change it in the expansion.
We have sorted journal with objectives, because writing down the same things yourself is just busywork. Oh no, you forgot that the child in this town is kidnapped, now it's too late because you were too busy doing something else, you could've saved him if you would write it down...

And now onto the whole quest marker thingie...
It's not about how others like to have their games differently, but it gets beyond "personal opinion" when everybody cries how quest markers ruin the experience like it's a fact.
Again, I ask: What's the difference between knowing your destination and it is shown on the map/compass and knowing your destiantion by being told the exact, detailed way to it? How would the first one ruin the exploration if you know where you are going in both ways, heck, in the second one you only know one way if you've got derailed, you're screwed.
And how does it make the game linear again? What tells you that you have to follow the mark, always. You cannot even always follow the mark, there's always, ALWAYS something in the way, especially in dungeons, unless you can phase trough walls or something...

How does asking for directions then knowing your way anyway helps the experience, how does bringing up the map every second help the same way?

Why don't you just ignore the in-game journal??
Get a pad a paper and write your own journal as you play. Problem solved.


Not true at all. You can search by Topics, keywords, and even read back dialog that was spoken to you.
It's the most detailed journal Bethesda has ever done.

Mostly it's about that slippery creature 'immersion'. For a game like Skyrim, many people find that having a pointer on screen indicating the direction you need to go just doesn't feel plausible - it doesn't feel like it fits in that world. For many other people there's no problem at all. It doesn't feel jarring or peculiar.

Also, for many people trying to find their way from the scenery, a map, and a set of directions is part of the fun. A minigame, but one that is built seamlessly into the main game.

Obviously, the compass must be available for all those many people who'd hate being without it, but for those who'd prefer the alternative it'd be nice if the written directions were also included.

because i never had directions so exact that they told me exactly which chest in the "hidden cave" the "lost heirloom" was in. i dont even think most people would mind having an arrow to the entrance of the location but then it would disappear once you get inside or in the case of something outside it would disappear within a certain radius. i could certainly live with that. but having something point you directly to the goal is just hand holding and it does ruin the game experience.

i havent played morrowind without expansions in forever so ill take your word for the vanilla one but i never had any issues in morrowinds journals post expansion. oblivions journal certainly wasnt much better ive seen several games that manage information much better than oblivion did. hell i even liked the fallout 3 pipboy better than oblivions/morrowind system.