Question about CHIM : The Elder Scrolls Series Discussion

» Mon May 07, 2012 5:56 pm

Yeah... but I don't wanna feel like I'm cheating myself by not "getting" what the world's about. Plus if I can't understand this, then it means I'm stupid. I really really don't wanna be stupid.

You've already stated/shown that you understand the basic premise, as we discussed in the other thread. That's what there is to get, everything else is overcomplication.

» Tue May 08, 2012 12:49 am

You've already stated/shown that you understand the basic premise, as we discussed in the other thread. That's what there is to get, everything else is overcomplication.

It's this Z and Amaranth stuff that has me hung up.

Z is not the same as CHIM then? CHIM seemed like end-all be-all of ascendancy, but Z is something greater?

Tell me if I'm wrong here:

CHIM is the act of knowing that you exist as a dream of the schizophrenic Godhead, and instead of blinking away in a puff of logic or under the weight of that terror, you retain your identity by saying, "I am." The knowledge of what existence is and your sudden escape of it (like being unplugged from the Matrix) affords you a position of power over everything. But you still have to battle against the nature of existence even after you have achieved CHIM because you have returned to the Beginning, and if you're not careful you will suffer the same fate as the Godhead and split in two, becoming no different than the Godhead. By changing the rules of existence and becoming a being of love, you become Z, and no longer have to fight against anything or fear any schisms ever again. That is Amaranth, a universal state of oneness, totality, and unwithering stability.

» Mon May 07, 2012 8:09 pm

_{Esteemed fellows,}

_{Once, while travelling to and fro, I met man faced with the strange syllable known as [CHIM]. His teachers' instructions did little to assuage his frustration at the concept's nuances. Reaching the end of his patience, he cried out that the [endeavor] too complex, and although it was impossible to ignore (being an established part of the world in which he existed), he must cease the struggle for the aforesaid reasons, ending the dream in a flurry of retreat to the waking world...with the *blip* to signify [that one's end].}

_{Gently I approached, placing my arm around my dreaming brother and said, "look around you, my friend. Yes, someone else created this [NIRN] in which we are experiencing at this very moment. No, we didn't write [the story], nor did we come up with these confusing [terminology and/or concepts], but calm yourself. Let me show you something...."}

_{And with the [code body] that someone else created for me I took a deep dream-breath and.....I screamed.}

_{I screamed "OH AKA! I WATCH YOU WATCHING ME WATCHING BACK!"}

_{"And for our shared madness.....I say YOU MAY HAVE WRITTEN THE STORY, WROTE THE CODE....BUT I BOUGHT THIS GOD**MN GAME AND NOW I CALL THE SHOTS!"}

_{A button is pushed and I awoke....but I did not forget the dream. Those people in that dream...no, I didn't create them, but they are now under my will only, and [CHIM] is, in my dream, what I say it is.}

_{And [the alien terror that is God} was powerless against my decision to [cut him off until I got back from work...because I said so.]}

_{CHIM, like Love, is now under my will only.}

_{I dream at will.}

_{Yours in the Scrolls,}

_{The Word Merchant of Julianos}

» Mon May 07, 2012 10:42 pm

That made me happy WM. Glad to see you again.

» Tue May 08, 2012 12:49 am

[snip]

When you get CHIM, you become the Godhead of your own universe, except conscious and aware unlike the present one. Amaranth is when the beings in your new universe 'wake up' and achieve CHIM themselves. I believe I quoted this snippet earlier, but I'll do so again:

Anyone that can make the final jump goes to sleep and dreams forever, making a new cosmos and being each new part of it, watching as those new parts wake up within him/her, their actualizing children, some of which naturally rebel, but love begets love which is the Amaranth.

» Tue May 08, 2012 3:03 am

When you get CHIM, you become the Godhead of your own universe, except conscious and aware unlike the present one. Amaranth is when the beings in your new universe 'wake up' and achieve CHIM themselves. I believe I quoted this snippet earlier, but I'll do so again:

I'm not so sure about this. Both Vivec and Talos seem connected to Tamriel, still. I seem to recall MK saying that if Talos or Vehk achieved Amaranth, than Tamriel would "be in their rear-view window."

» Mon May 07, 2012 6:53 pm

I'm not so sure about this. Both Vivec and Talos seem connected to Tamriel, still. I seem to recall MK saying that if Talos or Vehk achieved Amaranth, than Tamriel would "be in their rear-view window."

Neither Talos nor Vivec achieved Amaranth

» Mon May 07, 2012 8:21 pm

When you get CHIM, you become the Godhead of your own universe, except conscious and aware unlike the present one. Amaranth is when the beings in your new universe 'wake up' and achieve CHIM themselves. I believe I quoted this snippet earlier, but I'll do so again:

That helps a lot! Errg! Why can't I figure this [censored] out the first dozen times I read it! Feels silly having to be explained all this stuff.

But thank you thank you thank you for explaining it.

*edit*

How then does a single person achieve Amaranth?

Neither Talos nor Vivec achieved Amaranth

Didn't you say Amaranth was a state of existence where multiple people achieved CHIM?

» Tue May 08, 2012 7:34 am

Neither Talos nor Vivec achieved Amaranth :wink:

Right. I thought Amaranth was making your own universe and having your creations achieve Amaranth also. You say otherwise, with CHIM being the former. But neither Vehk nor Talos seem to have their own universes.

» Mon May 07, 2012 5:49 pm

Right. I thought Amaranth was making your own universe and having your creations achieve Amaranth also. You say otherwise, with CHIM being the former. But neither Vehk nor Talos seem to have their own universes.

Talos never achieved CHIM.

» Tue May 08, 2012 3:45 am

Talos never achieved CHIM.

Mankar seems to think he did, and the lore at least agrees that Talos got rid of the jungle.

» Mon May 07, 2012 6:24 pm

Mankar seems to think he did, and the lore at least agrees that Talos got rid of the jungle.

Mankar's words were "those who know it" as if to imply that you can know and use the word without achieving the state of CHIM.

» Mon May 07, 2012 7:13 pm

How then does a single person achieve Amaranth?

Didn't you say Amaranth was a state of existence where multiple people achieved CHIM?

A single person doesn't achieve Amaranth. Neither do two people achieving CHIM in the same universe qualify as Amaranth. To have Amaranth, you need a New-Man (say, Vivec) creating his own universe, and then the people in that new universe also achieving CHIM. Lets see if http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/4435/zaeq.jpg helps.

Right. I thought Amaranth was making your own universe and having your creations achieve Amaranth also. You say otherwise, with CHIM being the former. But neither Vehk nor Talos seem to have their own universes.

I was using CHIM too broadly, my mistake. What was meat was the state that the Loveletter calls the final subgradient, Z, "individuals beyond all AE." CHIM is one way at that. We don't actually know if Vivec or Talos have their own universes, but I'd argue that if they don't it is because Amaranth is not [yet] their goal. The Loveletter does mention Vivec returning from the Aether (which is the Landfall, in my guesses), so that could tie in. Or maybe their state isn't equivalent to the New Man of the Loveletter. I don't think we (or at least I) fully know this issue yet.

There's another post by MK about Amaranth in TIL's archives, btw:

don't forget the Amaranth. There *is* one step beyond CHIM, but you're right in that it is not godhood. It's the flowering of a statehood where the images you give birth to in your dream-- stolen (?) from first dreamer-- wakes up. Wails knowing free will. And begins to dream in the same way. Children of liberty without end, and then the music lives forever as a pirate radio tuned against the rules of Heaven and the vulgarities of Hell.

I'm off for the night, hopefully I've not completely confused everything again :ahhh:

» Mon May 07, 2012 8:21 pm

A single person doesn't achieve Amaranth. Neither do two people achieving CHIM in the same universe qualify as Amaranth. To have Amaranth, you need a New-Man (say, Vivec) creating his own universe, and then the people in that new universe also achieving CHIM. Lets see if http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/4435/zaeq.jpg helps.

That helps a ton.

What does aad semblio impera mean? Google translate found nothing for aad semblio or ad semblio.

» Mon May 07, 2012 3:14 pm

That helps a ton.

What does aad semblio impera mean? Google translate found nothing for aad semblio or ad semblio.

It's from the Nu-Mantia Intercept.

"Aad semblio impera, dela can carpio semblex."
By these words I intone the many-headed language of the Ehlnofey. The phrase-meanings can be both "as in the image of the kings become the hearts of their shadows" and "the shadows in kingly hearts are images of as", where "as" is meant in the sheathe of an ur word.
The outcome of the Convention was to leave the terrestrial sphere in their excess, for its own good, but that it should last after their departure as in the semblance of the Ada-mantia. Mundus was given its second Tower, the Red, whose First Stone was the Heart of the World, "as in the image."
Time began to last in stepped-fashion. Those spirits that remained, lesser and greater, involuntary or eventual earthbone, surrendered all definite hold on divinity. Aldmeris bore witness and built the remaining towers during the Merethic: White-Gold, Crystal-like-Law, Orichalc, Green-Sap, Walk-Brass, Snow Throat, and on and on, "aad semblio impera."
We come to the first shaper-peoples and the historical lessonates, wherein most reversed in enmity, error, or awe what already existed in both meanings at once: "Aad semblio impera, dela can carpio semblex." What happens when one reverses an inversion; moreso, does so in the living day?

» Mon May 07, 2012 11:50 pm

In image then? As also suggested by Return False?

If I may first address to all assembled or in state ad semblio...

Appearing in image only.

» Tue May 08, 2012 2:36 am

Don't read into it. It seemed appropriate at 2am this morning

» Tue May 08, 2012 5:28 am

CHIM:

Evolving from an NPC, to a player. (A PC one, specifically, since you get to use the CK.)

» Mon May 07, 2012 6:49 pm

CHIM:

Evolving from an NPC, to a player. (A PC one, specifically, since you get to use the CK.)

Those err fightin' words round these-here parts...

» Mon May 07, 2012 4:43 pm

_{And [the alien terror that is God} was powerless against my decision to [cut him off until I got back from work...because I said so.]}

Hah!

Owh and hello!

» Mon May 07, 2012 10:21 pm

A single person doesn't achieve Amaranth. Neither do two people achieving CHIM in the same universe qualify as Amaranth. To have Amaranth, you need a New-Man (say, Vivec) creating his own universe, and then the people in that new universe also achieving CHIM. Lets see if http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/4435/zaeq.jpg helps.

If this is actually how it is, I sincerely hope that Vivec or Vehk or whatever didn't or doesn't become the Ruling King. It might not exactly be as bad as Kefta with the Warring Triad, but I would hate to be one of the members of a new universe where God was a narcissistic, friend-killing fruitcake.

» Tue May 08, 2012 4:45 am

Does the old universe get destroyed?

Also, yes... living in Vehk's world doesn't sound pleasent. The friend killing isn't that bad, but it's the other things he'd do to you, your daughter, your dad, ect.

» Tue May 08, 2012 4:49 am

_{Yours in the Scrolls,}

_{The Word Merchant of Julianos}

Welcome home, WM!

» Mon May 07, 2012 7:44 pm

That made me happy WM. Glad to see you again.

Same to you, amigo. We have a new game and endless overanolyzing to do. Sign me the "eff" up! It's made even better when, upon returning, I get to see old friends like you. Here's to the upcoming banter....CHEERS!

Hah!

Owh and hello!

And howdy to you, too, proweler! Good to see you. Btw, what does "owh" mean? I guess my post had....faults?

Welcome home, WM!

Thanks, Divinitas. I have missed this place. Glad to see that you are still here, too.

» Tue May 08, 2012 3:01 am

Come! We must misinterpret things!