So CHIM is being Zaphod Beeblebrox, basically. I'm down with this.

I do tire of a lot of this CHIM business. It's sort of become a byword for Elder Scrolls lore as a whole. Personally I don't think it stands out as interesting amongst MK's ideas, or in TES lore as a whole. But each to their own, right?

CHIM stated as a definition is not very interesting at all. It's the application that's important.

"Nerevar said, 'I am afraid to become slipshod in my thinking.'

Vivec said, 'Reach heaven by violence then.'"

Note however that fighting the moon-people has not been shown to produce results.

So, how would you explain it?

I never thought it was Buddhist or some form of Buddhist enlightenment, but I wouldn't discount calling it a form of enlightenment as in some grand epiphany. And I've always known it was free will. I'm not sure what you think I think CHIM is, but I'm going off this definition:


I have been going off that definition since I read it. I don't think CHIM is anything more than that. The reason I'm suddenly confused is the pairing of CHIM and Vehk-love and this business of Vehk rewriting the rules and Amaranth and every other concept that MK felt the need to stack on and never stop stacking.

And you keep telling me that I don't understand it, and that I should throw away everything I know about CHIM and start over. Okay watch me throw away what I know about CHIM.

The realization that you are just one small part of the dream of a schizophrenic Godhead, and that you therefore do not exist as an individual being, typically results in disappearing from the world. CHIM is this realization coupled with the wilful retaining of individual identity ("the ability to say 'I am'").

Now watch me start from the beginning.


Actually why don't you tell me what you think my definition of CHIM is. You keep telling me I'm wrong, but you don't say what's wrong about it.

I think it's a case of "the CHIM that can be named is not the true CHIM".

I call semiotics. Vivec named it succinctly in http://imperial-library.info/content/more-psijic-endeavor http://www.imperial-library.info/content/tower, there's no reason we can't do the same. Swimming in an endless pool of metaphors ("CHIM is like Nirvana - but with Nietzsche - no, more like Descartes - with the added benefit of being really drunk - and...) helps no one.

language without exertion is dead witness

I'm just going off of the Stick post definition. Dealing with CHIM the word, Crown; Starlight enters into a world of metaphorical debate, and by the time that debate is in full-swing we've lost the meaning of the original definition.

Is it bad that this topic of mine has gotten more replies than all my other topics? I feel like I lit a barrel full of oil.
But then again, most question's here are CHIM, Dreugh, or Kaplas.

Well, the problem is that what you link to doesn't say that. The links are fine.

You can stop beating around the bush now.

Is that your way of trying to coax a definition out of her?

While I'm interested to hear what Allerleirauh's has to say on the topic, she comes well acclaimed, her mere assertion without explanation or argument just comes across as rude. I'm calling her on this behaviour as I'd like to see that she actually engages in the discussion rather then side step it. Were I behaving like this, I'd expect every one to call me on it too.

Fair enough.

psst

She's trying to steer you away from bad paths so you can find the right path for yourself.

This is one of those cases in which the ability to define a term is not the same as comprehending it. For a comparison, suppose someone asked you what a meaningful/valuable life was. There are lots of ways you might try to define it, but giving someone the definition wouldn't suffice for them to comprehend it.

Another example, suppose someone asked you how to make a chair. You could describe how all the parts fit together, and what the various steps are. But at some point you have to give them a hammer and let them have at it.

Or, let's make it explicitly TES related. Here's a definition: "How to permanently exist beyond duplexity, antithesis, or trouble." Do you comprehend the Tower's Secret now, by this definition alone?

There is nothing that stops me from explaining my understanding of what a meaningful or valuable life is. Nor is there is anytihng that stops you from explaining your understanding. We may not understand each other but by talking about the differences and similarities we may come to understand each other eventually.

Suppose the roles were reversed. If I were to tell you that your understanding was wrong and leave it at, then no matter how noble the intent, there is nothing for you to accept this argument by but my authority. But what authority do I have? I might be wrong. Or I might have simply misunderstood you. But if I never actually engage in a discussion, how will either of us known?

To tie all this back to the discussion concretely. Perhaps the explanation alone will not suffice to grant a complete understanding. This is not a reason to forgo an attempt at explanation. Nor is it a reason to forgo any actual criticism of the description in the FAQ. The only thing it will do with certainty is create more conversation.

edit, regarding your edit:

If you take the paragraph that follows your definition:

"This is not an easy concept, I know. Imagine being able to feel with all of your senses the relentless alien terror that is God and your place in it, which is everywhere and therefore nowhere, and realizing that it means the total dissolution of your individuality into boundless being. Imagine that and then still being able to say “I”. The “I” is the Tower."

and another relevant part of Vehks teachings:

To transcend mortal boundaries set in place by immortal rulers. At its simplest, the state of chim provides an escape from all known laws of the divine worlds and the corruptions of the black sea of Oblivion. It is a return to the first brush of Anu-Padomay, where stasis and change created possibility. Moreso, it the essence needed to hold that 'dawning' together without disaster. One that knows CHIM observes the Tower without fear. Moreso: he resides within.

And compare it to the Guide:

The realization that you are just one small part of the dream of a schizophrenic Godhead, and that you therefore do not exist as an individual being, typically results in disappearing from the world. CHIM is this realization coupled with the wilful retaining of individual identity ("the ability to say 'I am'"). The texts listed above already deal with the issues of CHIM, so be sure to read them.

I find that the Guide presents a fairly accurate summary of both. So I'm curious in which aspect you and Allerleirauh find fault.

Exactly. Instead, we're being given a hammer, and told that we did it wrong when we are unable to make a chair.

(Hypothetical we)

I say speak as you will. Don't betray your nature.


By which I mean that the speed at which this topic has mantled the last few sermons is astounding. Nerevar has his axe at the ready.

I always thought CHIM was love.
I dont know if anyone has read the Hyperion/ Endymion quartet by Dan Simmons?
In these books it is postulated that love is a fundamental force of the universe, as powerful and all-pervasive as electromagnetism or the weak nuclear force.

If you see CHIM in this light then the thing that keeps you from zero-summing upon experiencing that you are a tiny speck compared to the Godhead is love. Love for Creation and everything in it, but also love for yourself.

One that knows CHIM observes the Tower without fear. Moreso: he resides within.

Can a member of the Invisible Gate method become so archaic that its successor is not so much an improvement of the exact model, but rather a related model that is just needed more because of the currency of the world's condition?

Hmmm. In some ways, it's looking into the night sky and not having your brain go "holy crap I can't comprehend this! Here's my best effort without imploding."

I've always seen it as kind of along the lines of looking at, say, http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0d/Hubble_ultra_deep_field_high_rez_edit1.jpg and going "Holy crap I'm imcomprehensibly irrelevant in the grand scheme! But, here's why I and everything I know still matter!" Maybe not the best anology, but I've found it useful.

In the other CHIM thread, you said that CHIM was a constant battle. Does the above quote imply that to return to the beginning puts you at risk of splitting in half like the Godhead, thus making you an insane dreamer and negating all your progress to now?

*Edit*

More words of wisdom from Douglas Adams:

The worst form of torture in the entire Galaxy is the Total Perspective Vortex.


While its impossible to scan the entire universe; the machine works under the theory that all matter is connected, and the entire universe can be extrapolated from any single piece of matter. In the case of the TPV, it extrapolates the entire universe from a cupcake.

Zaphod Beeblebrox was forced into the machine, but miraculously he emerged unscathed because the universe he is currently in is artificial, a simulation he had unknowingly stepped into when he entered a man's office. And since the artificial universe was made for people to exist in, the TPV correctly pointed out that Zaphod, a real person was undoubtedly the most important thing therein.

Zaphod consequently emerges and eats the cupcake.

I wasn't claiming that we couldn't explain our views on what a good life was, and that we couldn't understand each other. I'm saying knowing the (or a) definition of a good life is not the same thing as understanding what a good life is. Nor am I claiming CHIM can't be defined. I'm suggesting the definition of CHIM isn't all that interesting, and that the ability to define it does not amount to understanding it.


That's not what's going on here, though.



The definition isn't wrong, it just misses the point in the way any definition would miss the point.

Let's try this another way. How do you get someone to understand how to permanently exist beyond duplexity, antithesis, or trouble?

You tell them to take heaven by violence.