Question about Sheogorath : The Elder Scrolls Series Discussion

» Mon Aug 30, 2010 6:22 pm

OK, so we met Sheogorath in Oblivion, and at the end of the Shivering Isles quest, you become him. So, is Sheogorath a person or just a title?

» Mon Aug 30, 2010 6:38 pm

Not a person, he's the daedra lord of madness - a god arther than person as in mortal person.

At the end of Shivering Isles you're not Sheoggorath, only a mortal mantling him (walking in his shoes so to speak, with the possibility of becoming close enough to him that the two of you becomes inditiguishable neough to be the same thing)

» Mon Aug 30, 2010 6:41 pm

But there was this one citizen who said to me:

"It is my dream to eat with you in the castle, Lord Sheogorath"

That's why I'm confused.

» Mon Aug 30, 2010 10:00 pm

is it true that the player's name is the neonymic of sheogorath? or have I misinterpreted that word? I thought it means something like the new name, not the original origin of a daedric prince. can someone explain?

» Tue Aug 31, 2010 12:00 am

Sheogorath is a role, not a personality. Or rather, the world knows Madness and the Shivering Isles by the name Sheogorath. The entity who wore a beard and carried a cane is gone, but he was just the public face of Madness and the embodiment of the isles. There are sources in SI hinting that he has been replaced before.

» Mon Aug 30, 2010 11:39 am

Either Haskill or Sheogorath put it just about perfectly in the game: "For all intents and purposes, you will be Sheogorath." It would be like someone signing over their identity to you in case something bad happened to them. You would conduct all of said person's business, and be regarded as said person, but that doesn't make you said person, exactly. But you could grow into the role, given time and experience.

» Mon Aug 30, 2010 1:34 pm

I'm sure you'll be Sheog as much as the "past" Sheog was Sheog.

Here is my take on the whole "becoming Sheog" thing, as stated http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?act=findpost&hl=arden+sheog&pid=12626255:

My basic theory is now this:

Different mortals have played Sheog before; Sheog (apparently) has admitted this as well. Now Arden-Sul, as we know, is one who basically did all of the crap you do in SI before you came, if I recall correctly: lit the Sacellum, became a Duke of either Mania or Dementia (people are [correctly] confused about this event, as if he was Duke of both. Remind you of anyone or anything?), and people refer to him as the MORTAL aspect of Sheog. When the Tribunal achieved godhood, they separated from their past selves and thereby became separate people. When Zurin faciliated apotheosis to create Talos, Talos and Tiber Septim technically remained separate people.

In reality, these mortal aspects WERE techincally the gods they were aspects of, but at the same time, they weren't. Arden-Sul WAS indeed Sheog before the Sheog you saw in SI...or he was him. Or some [censored] like that.

» Mon Aug 30, 2010 4:46 pm

So then the guy with the purple suit was actually Sheogorath and not just a face for the title?

» Mon Aug 30, 2010 4:33 pm

It's like how an elvis impersonator can become more elvis than elvis.

Because the image of elvis has a life of it's own now.

» Mon Aug 30, 2010 4:34 pm

That's a pretty good anology, Robynah.

So then the guy with the purple suit was actually Sheogorath and not just a face for the title?

He was the legitimate "manifestation" people attributed to the abstraction of "madness". Kind of how you may attribute an ink blot to something, only everyone attributes the blot to the same concept. It's kind of redundant, but don't expect to see someone that looks like your character as a statue in the next game.

» Mon Aug 30, 2010 12:06 pm

Ramesses I was Pharaoh. Seti I was Pharoah. (Now fill in the blanks.)

On that note... in the philosophy of Plotinus, the material world is given structure (meaningful reality) by individual souls which emanate from the world soul, and those individual souls structure the material world according to the Forms, which exist in the Mind (which emanates the world soul), and the Mind is emanated by the One.

One -emanates-> Mind (thinks Forms) -emanates->world soul-emanates->individual souls->bestows structure and reality on the material world.

Make the individual souls the Aedra and Daedra, the Forms the roles they fill, and have the mind go insane by thinking about itself.

» Mon Aug 30, 2010 11:30 pm

Actually, the hero in Oblivion simply goes nuts at the end of the game and thinks he is Sheogorath. I mean c'mon, you can't just become a deadra prince.

Right?

*cough*

» Mon Aug 30, 2010 12:44 pm

Actually, the hero in Oblivion simply goes nuts at the end of the game and thinks he is Sheogorath. I mean c'mon, you can't just become a deadra prince.

Right?

*cough*

I'm a daedric prince! My sphere of influence is that of stubbed toes, forgetting where you put your keys, and reaching over only to find someone else took the last tissue when you really need it.

...And in reply to the OP's question: I think Sheogorath is a Halloween costume, you can put it on and essentially assume the role of whomever you may be wearing. (Sorry if that was said before, I wasn't paying attention.)

» Mon Aug 30, 2010 4:47 pm

Sheogorath is a role, not a personality. Or rather, the world knows Madness and the Shivering Isles by the name Sheogorath. The entity who wore a beard and carried a cane is gone, but he was just the public face of Madness and the embodiment of the isles. There are sources in SI hinting that he has been replaced before.

Wasn't the bearded little man with the cane Arden-Sul, the previous mortal to wear the mantle of Sheogorath? Or am I way off the mark? It seems the game was trying to strongly imply this.

» Mon Aug 30, 2010 2:16 pm

Strongly implied. And very likely.

» Tue Aug 31, 2010 1:33 am

But the sphere of sheogorath, the madness itself never changes. Just like Lorkhan, who died although his sphere survived. If you'd become sheogorath, you couldn't change/remove madness, or could you? Or is it true the SI as seen in the game are a mirror of the person/the current sheogorath, so it's possible Arden-Sul for example wasn't schizofrene at all, and there was no dividation when he was the Prince of Madness?
Shortly: Does being sheogorath only imply you sit on his throne and command your minions, without having any changing power at all, or is that a false statement?

» Mon Aug 30, 2010 12:35 pm

Being Sheogorath means you're Sheogorath. Whatever being Sheog encompasses is what you are.

» Mon Aug 30, 2010 12:19 pm

But the sphere of sheogorath, the madness itself never changes. Just like Lorkhan, who died although his sphere survived. If you'd become sheogorath, you couldn't change/remove madness, or could you? Or is it true the SI as seen in the game are a mirror of the person/the current sheogorath, so it's possible Arden-Sul for example wasn't schizofrene at all, and there was no dividation when he was the Prince of Madness?
Shortly: Does being sheogorath only imply you sit on his throne and command your minions, without having any changing power at all, or is that a false statement?

A sphere isn't separable from the being associated with it. It is not like the gods and portfolios of DnD.

» Mon Aug 30, 2010 8:07 pm

Does being sheogorath only imply you sit on his throne and command your minions, without having any changing power at all, or is that a false statement?

Yes it is false, but I imagine that that only happens after you've had time to commune with your uber-self (ie after all narratives ingame have ended).

» Mon Aug 30, 2010 10:55 pm

At the end of Shivering Isles you're not Sheoggorath, only a mortal mantling him (walking in his shoes so to speak, with the possibility of becoming close enough to him that the two of you becomes inditiguishable neough to be the same thing)

If you come close to Sheogorath, do you also have to come close to jyggalag?
Has Jyggalag always been Sheogorath? If not, from what time on was Jyggalag cursed? also, did sheogorath exist before jyggalag was turned into him? or was he created by the curse?

I still don't get it.

» Mon Aug 30, 2010 4:03 pm

Yes it is false, but I imagine that that only happens after you've had time to commune with your uber-self (ie after all narratives ingame have ended).

And those things are the flaws of the game: not everything is told to you, the PC does not truly change, you never get those things in-game.
probably it's the idea you find these things out yourself.

» Mon Aug 30, 2010 7:51 pm

Has Jyggalag always been Sheogorath? If not, from what time on was Jyggalag cursed? also, did sheogorath exist before jyggalag was turned into him? or was he created by the curse?

Yes.

Jyg existed before time was started on the Mundus. Jyg was "cursed" when time started.

edit: If everything is told to you ingame, it defeats the purpose of reading the lore.

» Mon Aug 30, 2010 12:55 pm

And those things are the flaws of the game: not everything is told to you, the PC does not truly change, you never get those things in-game.
probably it's the idea you find these things out yourself.

Oh, quite the contrary. I enjoy the fact that you do not change immediately. First, I always enjoy ambiguity. Second, it gives room for the theory that the CoC really did just go into the Shivering Isles and promptly go bonkers.

I mean, it was the perfect bait for a hero and Adventurer. The promise of adventure, danger, prestige, some power, and nice shinies to adorn your mantle with.

» Mon Aug 30, 2010 3:41 pm

but has there always been a mortal impersonator of sheo? and why would that be nessicary, jyggalag himself should be enough, shouldn't he?

» Mon Aug 30, 2010 11:22 pm

You don't impersonate a role. Something must act it out and no such thing exists it will come into excistence.