Wow... people actually liked Morrowind more than Daggerfall?
I'm guessing half of those votes for Morrowind > Daggerfall are coming from people that never even played Daggerfall and/or Morrowind diehards.


I can understand people liking morrowind over oblivion, but daggerfall? really?

I'm very upset. Like, almost to the point where I plan on getting Rage instead simply because it has just as in depth hth combat as Sk, if not more.

And the thing is you can't promiss me that. I know very well I can kill things with my fists, and khajiits will have a special animation along with an increase in damage. But being able to get better at hth is a pretty big thing. And besides, no one else seems to give a damn about hth, so it's up to me to remind people that what's happening to hth could happen to all the other skills in the next game. I wouldn't be near as vocal about it if hth was popular. But it isn't, so I kinda have to be a [censored] about it just so people don't forget about it.

Could also be that they played Daggerfall after Morrowind, or played it when Daggerfall was ridiculously outdated. A lot of people just can't get into old or outdated games. I personally loved Daggerfall, but I played it right when it came out.

Also, it depends on the generation of the gamer. Younger gamers won't typically like games like that as much as older gamers.

This may be the wrong thread, but I am curious.

What do you feel makes Daggerfall a better game than Morrowind?

I think it'd mostly legitimate, although i haven't looked at every post on the forum about it. Daggerfall had a lot more of everything than Morrowind, and Morrowind had a lot more of everything than Daggerfall. Bethesda is a company, a company is designed to make money and in this case it's from a developted product. From the sound of it, Skyrim will be just as much of a dumbing down as Oblivion was of Morrowind, but ultimately we must wait and see though i find it difficult to think what could possibly be introduced that could make up for what was taken away.

My main problems can be boiled down to four things.

Regenerating health
No spell making
No armor degradation
Armor melding

In morrowind you had twice as many armor pieces as in skyrim, and you could wear clothes and a robe over/under them! So you could have 8 pieces of armor, a shirt, pants, robe, two rings, and a necklace for a total of 14 equipped items. In Oblivion it was 9 equipped items, and Skyrim will likely be 8. How is this not dumbing it down? Granted it's not the ultimate nightmare that Fallout3 was ( A single piece!) but character customisation is absolutely vital to any RPG.

3 words. Great House Telvanni. God I'm a nerd.

I seem to like the TES games in the reverse order of their release. :shrug:
(Though I've not really put any time into Arena yet.)

didn't the first two fallout games have the helmet merged with armor too?

OT
I think most people are really over reacting, Play it, take it for what it is, then judge it.

I don't think anyone's gonna jump on you for saying that. But I will say that instead of being on the map as the default at least give the people who DO NOT like using it the option of turning it off.

Having completed each of the chapters I personally felt it got better with each new edition. I think there are some valid substance over style arguments to be made, but for me, it has felt like quality over quantity. Combat and spellcasting in Oblivion were....... fun.... lots of fun... something I can't say for the other chapters. The other chapters had more depth and RPG characteristics, but Oblivion was a fun game with an RPG soul.

I get a little miffed when some of the more vocal fans drop their resume' and assume that anyone who has completed the earlier chapters all think one way, and all the noobs love Oblivion because it was dumbed down. Not the case for a lot of us. Having played all of the Ultima I-VII, all of the Zorks, and most every other RPG out there, I personally feel that Bethesda is evolving the genre and not dumbing it down. Sure there are a lot of things I miss, but when I look at the improvements, it is hard not to accept that we are seeing progress.

Heresy! Actually, double heresy!

It doesn't make sense that someone spends all day practicing alchemy and suddenly they feel stronger, more agile, and luckier. I like the system whereby everything flows naturally. No more over- or under-leveling if they pull it off right. I don't consider this dumbing down at all.

IMHO, Removing some skills, classes or attributes does not automatically result in a dumbed-down game, but the whole system should be considered.

It's the game concept, the game-play that has to be considered.

It all depends on my whole experience with the game.

Morrowind seemed like a perfect experience, which provided enough role playing opportunities, and enough challenges for me to keep it ultimately interesting for a lot of play-throughs.

Oblivion, on the other hand, was IMGO, dumbed-down, a lot, and was designed with excessive hand holding toward the players, to its very cores, and that resulted in an experience that did not provide enough challenge and enough role playing opportunities, because all the things that the game provided for the player, was available for all of the players from the beginning, and did not differ with different roles that a player could mold into, rendering the whole role playing theme unrewarding and shallow.

As for, Skyrim, from what I can see, they have returned toward Morrowind standards, and at some aspects even exceeded it, so I would not accept that it is dumbed-down, in the whole. Some small detail has been removed, from which some I agree with, and some I do not like a lot, but in the whole, I'm sure it is a much more complete role playing game than Oblivion, and in some aspects even from Morrowind.

It would provide much more challenges for my character than Oblivion, and would provide a lot more role playing opportunities that that game, and if I find out that it still keeps some hand-holding aspects to its game-play, I would mod them out for sure.

H2h was definitely something I preferred in Morrowind over Oblivion. One of my funniest moments in Morrowind was with h2h. An enemy had just a sliver of fatigue left and I did a power attack. Well the game must have glitch because they went unconscious and never woke up. When I clicked on them (to talk) it would say they are unconscious but after saving then loading, going to town and coming back, etc... they never woke up. I passed it off as hitting them so hard I put them in a coma. Good time, good times.

I'm disappointed to see that the most prevalent on the forums are still Morrowind die hards.. Daggerfall was better.. sorry bout it. :brokencomputer:

Also although I voted for Morrowind being better than Oblivion, it's by a very very slight margin. I like good action in games, and Morrowind was lacking. Granted, Morrowind was amazing in most other ways.

Daggerfall >= Morrowind >= Oblivion

Skyrim has yet to be played

and yes you can read that as both Daggerfall > Morrowind > Oblivion AND Daggerfall = Morrowind = Oblivion. My take on the series.

Morrowind>Daggerfall>Oblivion>Arena>Redguard>Battlespire

I still believe Morrowind is the best out of the entire series.

The reason people prefer morrowind over daggerfall is because of immersion. There was a coming together of both rpg elements and next-gen graphics that really sent the immersion factor through the roof. (no more randomly generated terrain). You really felt like you were in that world, living that life.

For my personal preferences in terms of TES as an RPG, Daggerfall > Morrowind > Oblivion. That is not to say that I'd necessarily view Daggerfall as the best game, I struggle to play it now, though I still very much like the character creation. Oblivion was the first one to provide a level of disappointment but I really don't remember why.

I do think the game has changed over time, as an RPG I find it 'watered down'. Whether that reflects it's adaptation to a changing market or the changing tastes of the developers I don't know.

I have no real problems with many of the complaints so long as they are presented with a level of thought and maturity, some of them I don't understand but I realise individual preference is highly variable and a game can appeal to different people for different reasons. Personally I've found a number of thee 'dumbing down' and feature removals discussions to be some of the more interesting ones on the forum.

I'm still not really sure what to think about Skyrim. As a relative veteran of the series, will I find it overly simplistic and boring? Will it offer something different and interesting? Have my tastes changed enough over time to find some fun in it? I wish I knew.

Morrowind is my favourite. If it wasn't for those godawful dungeons Daggerfall would have hit that mark.

Oblivion was a major disappointment. Besides the beautiful scenery and musical score, it just didn't hit the right note overall that Morrowind did.

From what we've seen it's looking like Skyrim will have that Oblivion "feel" but have a better sense of exploration and a better character level system.

Not dumbed down at all, just more slick and efficiant.

We've both played those :foodndrink: ; but what I never cared for in TES was the blank slate PC, and the unmistakable assumption and encouragement that the player will or should substitute themselves for the PC. In Oblivion the PC may know nothing of locks, and yet the game presents the player with the PC's knowledge of the internals of every lock, and how their tumblers react to manipulation with picks... Yet this should only be an option for a skilled locksmith PC. :shrug: ~and even then the lock gets opened by the player and ignores the possible ineptness of the character because the developer expects you to imagine that its you instead of them picking the lock. (when the whole point of an RPG character to see or experience what they can accomplish, and choose among the reactions most in keeping with the character).
**The flip side of this is the expert locksmith PC who may be hampered by the player's inability to manipulate the lock. :shrug: (That shouldn't happen, should it?)

With TES your PC has http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYOWIdPHXts, and nobody knows them, and they have the life skills of an infant ~Having no previous history, aptitude, or profession; What kind of role is that!? :shrug:

How is it (in your opinion) an improvement over sensible limitations by the game to what your character can actually accomplish? If your PC studied spells all their teen and early advlt life (of which there is no such thing in Skyrim AFAIK), and is uncomfortable and unfamiliar with anything but a simple dagger... Why should they be equally skilled in every other 1 handed weapon?

This new RPG seemingly intends to create a digital costume in lieu of a meaningful character with strengths and enforced limitations. :shrug:

Why exactly?

Most of the things removed in Skyrim didn't bother me, some of them were even sort of a 'Good Riddance!' thing. The one thing that I wish they hadn't cut though was armor and weapon degradation, and I'm not really even sure why.

I liked my Oblivion game better than Morrowind, but my Oblivion was heavily modded to fix most of the game's shortcomings. In fact, until I started coming to these forums to yap about Skyrim I forgot how messed up some of Oblivion's vanilla systems really were because most of my entire playing experience was with a modded Oblivion. (Oblivion had been out for a year by the time I picked it up, so there were a ton of mods already out the day I installed it.)

Never played more than a few hours of Daggerfall, but I think Oblivion is better than Morrowind. I believe the negative reactions towards Skyrim is based on nostalgia and that people are scared of change.

How can that be the root cause of every discontent imaginable here? (As it is seemingly so often attributed.)

TES fans are just as loyal and demanding as Fallout fans; and they also generally have several of the games installed... It cannot be nostalgia if you are playing them all side by side.

*I myself have Arena, Daggerfall, Morrowind (and expansions), and Oblivion (and expansions) installed, and I still like the early ones better, and Oblivion was my first TES game. :shrug:

For me it's: Morrowind > Daggerfall > Oblivion > Redguard (never played Battlespire, and I'm biased against Redguard because it had horrendous problems and was barely playable)

From what I remember, Daggerfall had a great and surprising story, and a reasonably complex faction system with a variety of interesting characters. There were a lot of PC character options in terms of skills, attributes, and even "perks", but many weren't fully utilized in the game. The procedurally generated landscape and dungeons got really old even by standards of the day. I sometimes felt hate for the dungeon crawls. I loved having the various hunters or Daedra pop up at inopportune moments to chase you if you had done something to anger them.

Morrowind was a simplified in terms of PC development, but I didn't mind the loss of many of the skills, such as the languages. Melee/bow combat wasn't great, but spell-casting, potion-making and spell-making could be fun and creativity could result in interesting effects. I absolutely loved the story, the Tribunal and the history and politics surrounding them (and the Ashlanders), the Great Houses (especially the Telvanni), the supporting characters (Caius, Larrius Varro, Divayth Fyr, etc.), Dagoth Ur, etc. The previous elements, plus the atmosphere, and all of the little surprises spread all over the map--vampire den locations, unique artifacts, etc.., all worked together to make the game one of my all-time favorites.

Oblivion streamlined even more, cutting features that should have been tweaked, but improving combat and the graphics (except for the faces, which were now hi-res hideous instead of lego-hideous). The overall art design was a few notches below Morrowind, Along with the art design, the story and culture of Tamriel seemed to have been beaten with a bland club. Cyrodill became a generic medieval fantasy mish-mash of western europe, and shoving Tamrielic religion into generic Disney-fied Christianity** added insult to injury. Despite the gimped radiant AI--which was still an improvement over Morrowind--the switch from text to voice dialog simplified NPCs and the ability to interact with them (at least in terms of painting a bigger picture with backstories, etc.). Level-scaling really screwed up the combat, too. Some people felt it made the game too easy, some people thought it made the game too hard and removed the feeling of character progress. I personally don't see how anybody could think of a world rife with bandits in Daedric armor could ever think of it as immersive, but maybe that's me. Most of Oblivion's issues were eventually fixed with mods, and there were some genuinely cool moments for me, such as happening upon a valley and looking down to see a large group of soldiers running through fields of deep grass towards an Oblivion Gate. But for me, the game felt like it took place in a generic mythological Britain**, rather than Tamriel, and that just didn't work.

**I don't at all mind a game being set in medieval Britain with Christianity as a major theme, but when I see that in a setting that's supposed to be an alien world, it really irritates me. And you can do this and make it interesting and alive by doing a little research and even plagiarizing actual history, but the environment just felt like British-fantasy world #6,332, quickly thrown together from vague memories of various 2nd-rate fantasy novels. Meh.

Because it goes against my opinion, which of course must be taken as fact.

:P

Kidding of course.