[D LOpez]

I can say with full confidence that this MB is not an accurate representation of the average person who will buy Skyrim. Even if a poll on this MB is 60:40 in favor of the "negative" side, I would be STUNNED to find that the majority of people who plan on buying Skyrim agree with the so-called "consensus" here. Hell, I'd be surprised if that sere the case if you even just got an answer from every single registered user here. Threads draw likeminded responses, and people here are far more critical of Beth than the average fan -- or the average reviewer for that matter.

I know what "vocal minority" means and I am certain that what we have here is exactly that.

The whole internet had a consensus that Dragon Age 2 was bad. Not just bioware forums. Every person I know who played thought it was bad. Even those who dont care much about rpgs.

I do know that right now the skeptical people are a minority but that was the thing with DA2 as well. People become skeptical when theyre disappointed. Right now people trust Bethesda because theyre fans but if the game turns out to be something they dont like that will change.

Average fans are usually indifferent. Theyre not critical or optimistic. They wouldnt care much if the game had complexity or depth or any of the stuff I'd want. Theyre in for the reputation and hype of the game. Not so much its details. Average reviewers in the case of DA2 were afraid of EA and mostly wrote positive reviews which got a lot of angry feedback. Some of them were outright lies and talked about stuff not included in the game.

[Lizzie]

Okay. Let's talk about dungeons then. Let's assume that Bethesda really does have a larger team of level designers working to make each of the reported 150+ dungeons as unique as possible. DA2 had like 5 dungeon designs that constantly repeated. Thoughts?

I don't know anything about DA2. But Todd Howard said that they 200+ dungeons that are much better/more detailed than in the past, and Pete Hines said yesterday that they have much more content in dungeons.

[Wayne Cole]

I've been a lurker and occasional poster since the days of the Redguard forums, and the Bethesda bulletin boards before that, and yes, it's always been this bad. In fact, as some have said, the transition from Daggerfall to Morrowind was probably the worst by far.

It's been funny to watch Morrowind evolve from a dumbed down, consolized kid's game to the holy grail of RPGs. It's already starting to happen to Oblivion ("No Arena! But the Arena is what makes TES TES!!") and yes, it will happen with Skyrim. Older fans move on, to be replaced by younger and more vocal fans. At the time I was deeply disappointed with Morrowind, but I've learned that each TES game is it's own thing, and it's fun just to enjoy the ride. Todd said in an interview that in a Bethesda game, there's going to be all kinds of crazy crap in there, and some of it probably doesn't work, but you know it's going to be cool--while the games have changed dramatically over the years, I think that assessment has always been pretty dead on.

People usually fall in love with the TES game they started on, and they usually played it when they were about 12-18. So all the bile is perfectly understandable. For most of us, we spend ages 12-18 falling in love with all kinds of books and movies and games, then age 18-80 angrily shaking our fists that things weren't as good as when we were 12-18.

[John Moore]

I think the main thing is that we all loved oblivon in general otherwise we wouldnt be here right now. I think we point out what was wrong with Oblivion to show what we dont want in Skyrim.

[Andrew Lang]

Okay. Let's talk about dungeons then. Let's assume that Bethesda really does have a larger team of level designers working to make each of the reported 150+ dungeons as unique as possible. DA2 had like 5 dungeon designs that constantly repeated. Thoughts?

I'm not saying that Bethesda would fail on the action-adventure side of the game. Dungeons and world design looks great. I also said that Skyrim looks a lot better than DA2. What I mean is that it has the same development philosophy which will affect things a lot. Bethesda wants to streamline, make it accessible and make it really easy for everyone to get into. Those are the things that ruined many great rpg franchises. They eat away from my experience and it mostly shows in rpg elements. Removal of attributes, making the game simpler etc etc. You can understand my fears here? I'm not saying Skyrim will be as bad as DA2. I'm saying it will suffer from the same things as DA2 did.

[Josh Lozier]

Dont get stuck in crafting I'm not talking about that. It looks a million times better in Skyrim yes but its just one thing. I'm talking about the general direction of the game.

To be fair, DA2's direction looked promising. A graphical overhaul, which looked nice but still familiar to DA:O. A whole new story, which was supposed to be impactful and emotional. New locations, and dungeons, and items. New companions. Improved crafting. More decisions. New enemies. Making classes more fun to play/distinct. New talents. Supposedly the option to command combat the same way as DO:A.

Some things were negative; confined to Kirkwall and the voiced, human protagonist.

But what we got....

I apologize, but DA2 seemed rushed and lazily developed. The unforgivable repetition of areas and zones. Fighting the same enemies over and over as they appear in waves from nowhere. Lame companions. Disjointed story that felt convoluted and piece-meal. Constant useless item looting. Etc.

Now, we can obviously draw parallels between Skyrim's and DA2's "streamlining" and the direction the game seems to be moving in. The difference, as I see it, is that Bethesda isn't being lazy, or rushing the development of Skyrim. I think it will definitely be a quality product with some controvertial changes. But the end result will be very enjoyable to TES fans.

I know Bioware has a pretty good pedigree, but you can't tell me DA2 seemed like a finished product.

[Curveballs On Phoenix]

People are generally biased towards the game they started with in a series.

Completely wrong. I started with Oblivion. Liked it at the time as it was my first rpg and I didnt have any standards. Now when I think about Oblivion without mods it would be quite bad. Definitely not a great rpg. I played Morrowind a year ago and liked it a lot more. Definitely more than Oblivion. People here dislike the development philosophy and the current games direction which is the reason for the complaints. Some are biased but thats not the biggest reason for disappointemts.

[Sammie LM]

@ The Byzantine, you sir are absolutely correct. For me, I first started with Morrowind and honestly Oblivion wasn't as good to me, and I do stll lament alot of the changes that are occuring in the franchise. Though I, like you, have learned to appreciate things as they are since games are always their own animal. I guess that ability to "roll with it" is part of being an advlt with real problems, like paying back school loans and getting up for work everyday...from that perspective I can say that wether or not this game has levitation(srsly?), spell making, a paper doll to dress up in the inventory screen, or the [censored] arena/vampires/werewolves...honestly I couldn't care less. As long as it looks pretty, feels nice and gives me my money's worth; Im happy. The developers frankly have better things to worry about too than the ten people who rant and rave on their forums about things that aren't even what the IP is known for.

[Eileen Collinson]

Completely wrong. I started with Oblivion. Liked it at the time as it was my first rpg and I didnt have any standards. Now when I think about Oblivion without mods it would be quite bad. Definitely not a great rpg. I played Morrowind a year ago and liked it a lot more. Definitely more than Oblivion. People here dislike the development philosophy and the current games direction which is the reason for the complaints. Some are biased but thats not the biggest reason for disappointemts.

generally.

[Eve(G)]

To be fair, DA2's direction looked promising. A graphical overhaul, which looked nice but still familiar to DA:O. A whole new story, which was supposed to be impactful and emotional. New locations, and dungeons, and items. New companions. Improved crafting. More decisions. New enemies. Making classes more fun to play/distinct. New talents. Supposedly the option to command combat the same way as DO:A.

Some things were negative; confined to Kirkwall and the voiced, human protagonist.

But what we got....

I apologize, but DA2 seemed rushed and lazily developed. The unforgivable repetition of areas and zones. Fighting the same enemies over and over as they appear in waves from nowhere. Lame companions. Disjointed story that felt convoluted and piece-meal. Constant useless item looting. Etc.

Now, we can obviously draw parallels between Skyrim's and DA2's "streamlining" and the direction the game seems to be moving in. The difference, as I see it, is that Bethesda isn't being lazy, or rushing the development of Skyrim. I think it will definitely be a quality product with some controvertial changes. But the end result will be very enjoyable to TES fans.

I know Bioware has a pretty good pedigree, but you can't tell me DA2 seemed like a finished product.

People were optimistic because they believed the hype. People are very hyped now and many dont see any fault in Bethesda at all. Could be that they are disappointe once the game come out.

Its true that the game was rushed but even with time it wouldve been far from a good rpg. The city may have been bigger, there wouldve been more dungeon variety, there might have been more enemies, the story might have been more consistent etc but the main flaws wouldve still been there.

Barely any real choices or consequences
Terribly dialogue, dialogue wheel and paraphrases
Railroading
Terrible adhd combat with waves
Terrible art direction with huge swords and spiky armour
Terrible environment design with no atmosphere
The game constantly taking player control away
etceteraetcetera

It wouldve been better with more time but that wouldnt have fixed it as an rpg. The fault to that was the development philosophy which is similar to Skyrim's.

[Anne marie]

My question is, were people as unhappy about the information on Oblivion as they are now about the information on Skyrim? If you weren't on the forums at that time then don't try and guess please. I also don't need anyone saying how they loved Oblivion and are looking forward to Skyrim, I am in that boat as well.

So, any thoughts?

Unquestionably. For all the wailing and gnashing of teeth that I found annoying on the forum, I actually didn't enjoy Oblivion at all. The interesting thing is that the reasons that caused me not to enjoy it were altogether different than the reason all the pre-release whiners assured me I'd hate it.

[Pixie]

Everyone knows that the forums have gotten more and more pessimistic since January. Many people still love what they have heard, myself included. But there are a lot of people that are angry at the things Bethesda left out of Skyrim, and sometimes they even have good reasons.

Being around since before the announcement of Skyrim, and hanging around the Elder Scrolls General Discussion forums for roughly half a year, It was hard not to notice the majority of Oblivion bashing forumers.

I personally love Oblivion and it was a huge step up for me from Morrowind, which I did not understand at the time but still loved (being 8 years old.) I now play Morrowind as intelligently as anyone and I love it almost as much as I love Oblivion. But it still remains that most people on the forums were disappointed with Oblivion.

My question is, were people as unhappy about the information on Oblivion as they are now about the information on Skyrim? If you weren't on the forums at that time then don't try and guess please. I also don't need anyone saying how they loved Oblivion and are looking forward to Skyrim, I am in that boat as well.


Yes I remember there was a lot of griping as well. In fact that is where Maiq came from. He makes fun of some of the major complaints from the forums.

Storm

Yes they were just as grumpy
So, any thoughts?

[Stace]

I guess that ability to "roll with it" is part of being an advlt with real problems, like paying back school loans and getting up for work everyday...

Ah yes, paying back school loans, the only true endlessly repeatable quest.

[Eoh]

Thing is, most casual gamers who are interested in a game would only join the forums if they were pissed about something and wanted to complain about it. As well, nobody really posts topics like "OMG THIS GAME RULES". That's pretty much svcking up. Anyway, the "vocal minority" could seem like a majority sometimes because most topics created are complaining about things. For instance, I might not agree with one part of the game, but like the rest. That doesn't mean that I'll post a topic and say "I hate this part and wish to see it abolished to the flames of Oblivion... but the rest of the game is awesome!"

TL;DR People complain more than praise

[Wayne Cole]

Getting up for work...

Sometimes I fail that quest. :sadvaultboy:

[helliehexx]

For my part, I'm not upset or angry. In fact, I'm pretty stoked about the game. However, there is only so much 'that's wonderful!' type things to be said, so naturally conversation shifts to things you want included or changed and takes on a more negative vibe than is really there. To my mind, those who truly feel negatively about the game have left the forums in disgust. The game is still 78 days away, yet we go on and on arguing about it in these forums. That's not negativity, not really. Squabbling over the details is just the only real outlet available to channel the pent up excitement about the game. Not like we can actually play it or anything.

[Silvia Gil]

Yeah, I heard about that. I bet there weren't many people saying Daggerfall ruined what Arena started, though

Were people more angry then than they are now? For Oblivion or for Morrowind?

I thought Daggerfall did a better job of building on and improving what we found in Arena. I remember being disappointed that we lost access to most of the tes world, but Daggerfall was much richer than Arena. Morrowind was simpler in many ways and richer in others. Generic npcs were more like people, but climbing was out. (My thief characters liked climbing walls to gain access to places.) Festivals and holidays were out. Many quest lines were simpler, but were also richer in some ways. A lot of players were annoyed, because they expected Bethesda to build on what they had done before as they had done before going from Arena to Daggerfall. Oblivion had to lose more stuff. Skyrim has to lose more stuff. It will probably be a wonderful game, but you do sometimes wonder where things are going.

[claire ley]

I've been here since before Morrowind was released. And I don't remember MW's or OB's forums being nearly this negative before those games were released. But Oblivion's forum took a huge negativity jump as soon as that game was released (while MW's remained much more positive after release).

This is not about hate, as so many here put it. It is about having the previous released version of this series (Oblivion) being such a disappointment for so many of us. Many of us were expecting ES-IV to be a major improvement over ES-III, and rightfully so, base on all the marketing hype that Beth was feeding us (and I personally believed all that hype, because I really wanted Oblivion to be the game they were advertising). When Oblivion didn't measure up, many of us lost a LOT of trust in Beth's pre-release representation of their games.

Plus many of us are not happy that our beloved series is being mainstreamed more and more with each release. Oblivion turned out to be only a shadow of the RPG that Morrowind was (it was a better Action Game, with prettier graphics; but not a better RPG by any stretch). And many of us see history repeating itself.

I don't have any hate for Beth or for the Elder Scrolls series.
Most of what I have is sadness (which is why I rarely post here anymore).

[Sudah mati ini Keparat]

Oblivion without mods it would be quite bad. Definitely not a great rpg. I played Morrowind a year ago and liked it a lot more. Definitely more than Oblivion.

Oblivion was a better place to 'live' as some poster said recently, but Morrowind was a better rpg. Vanilla Oblivion was just a little vapid.

[Jynx Anthropic]

Pessimism is a never-ending trend on this forum.

I can bet that from Daggerfall -> Morrowind, a lot of people complained. The same thing with Morrowind -> Oblivion.

And this is obviously going to happen when they announce The Elder Scrolls VI: Black Marsh =]

[Nichola Haynes]

People are never going to stop being negative. Ever. I wonder why I keep coming back here. Oh yeah :tes:
People don't like change and that's fine, the problem starts when they light a fire and everyone starts feeding it, getting larger and larger. Result: more people cussing other people out in smarty pants words. :meh: :meh:
@SlyHound lolol. I'll bet that most people are gonna be happy if It's in Black Marsh (Argonia sounds hella better).

[Lizs]

Yeah this always happens, quality>quantity.

Obviously, but without context that means nothing. Is an absolutely brilliant, highly linear, no-stats adventure game better than an uninspired, boring, and monstrously huge full-on simulation? Of course, but this isn't binary. There is obviously a happy equilibrium, and that balance changes depending on the type of game being made. Obviously a tight, scripted corridor shooter doesn't need stats or moral choices. But that doesn't mean that less is always more or than Skyrim has found that balance.

We've already seen what they are capable of. It's not outside of Beth's reach to offer significantly more major questlines than what is being offered within Skyrim.

generally.

Sure, but that doesn't mean that valid criticisms should be dismissed as nostalgia or fear of change just because of some general trend. If the argument is reasonable, then someone should argue the point rather than the poster's motivations. Too often on this board we see the latter.

[Josh Lozier]

People are generally biased towards the game they started with in a series.

I started with Morrowind. I like Oblivion more and am seeing that Skyrim will beat both of those. I also like Daggerfall, not so much Arena though. I never got out of the dungeon for Arena.

[FoReVeR_Me_N]

My question is, were people as unhappy about the information on Oblivion as they are now about the information on Skyrim? If you weren't on the forums at that time then don't try and guess please. I also don't need anyone saying how they loved Oblivion and are looking forward to Skyrim, I am in that boat as well.

It was the same information policy back then. And back then people were upset about the lack of crossbows and thrown weapons, blunt axes, and so on.
gamesas's PR policy is to build hype by lack of information, setting up the naysayers against the fangirls, and with their silence hide stuff they conceal not out of PR reasons but because they pretty well know that everyone will find them utterly underwhelming (like the plane of Oblivion or Oblivion's horses)

When Oblivion finally was released, some of the naysayers happily played it, others (like me) were utterly disappointed, once they went beyond the starting hours designed for magazine reviewers.

This time, the naysayers may be a bit more vocal. There are still hardcoe Morrowind fans here, that loathe Oblivion, but actually liked the Fallouts, then there are the Oblivion fans that detest every game that hasn't their personal pet feature of Oblivion (currently ARENA!), there are those who think WoW is an RPG and hope Skyrim will be likewise, and there are those who are close to giving up on the high budget RPGs, now that even Bioware ceased to make them; and in their desperation pin their hopes on Bethesda - the company that invented the so-called Next-Gen RGPs in the first place.

People are generally biased towards the game they started with in a series.

That would be Arena for me, and yes there are still some features I miss in later games. Daggerfall was revolution, but also a bugfest, and the dungeons were a pain. To me, Morrowind had the best mix so far. Personally, when comparing the vanilla games, not their bugs or modding capabilities, I'd say Morrowind > Daggerfall > Oblivion > Arena

[A Lo RIkIton'ton]

I guess that ability to "roll with it" is part of being an advlt with real problems, like paying back school loans and getting up for work everyday...

You shouldn't have any problem paying back school loans, given that apparently, you don't think twice about spending money for other things...

Funny thing is that there are people who'd love to spend their money on things THEY care for, instead of being expected to appreciate everything they are being served.