First of all, I'd like to say hi everyone.

I was wondering why people bother worshiping the Nine Divines. If everyone goes to Dreamsleeve whenever they die, then they're obviously not going to achieve a greater afterlife than anyone else by worshiping the divines. Thus why I am confused. It may have been misinformation, but I've heard that if the Daedra that daedra worshipers likes them enough, that they'll become part of that daedra's realm forever. However, I have not heard of this happening with the divines.

I suppose there's the possibility of receiving blessings occasionally throughout their lives, but it seems like worshiping the daedra would be of better benefit towards the Nine Divine worshipers. As well, assuming they worshiped no one, there would be more freedom in their lives as to how they could behave and thus they would probably be happier.

Could anyone explain this to me? Thanks.

Freedom equates to happiness?

Preposterous.

Actually, if the Nine really like you, you go to Aetherius instead of the dreamsleeve.

Or something like that, I don't know if it's the Nine's personal feelings towards you, It may be something else, but I know the ghosts of blades and of the Knights of the Nine went to Aetherius.

It's probably more, if you perform good deeds in life which are in line with the workings of the realms of the Aedra, you are more likely to end up in Aetherius with more of your total soul intact. Piety in the ES universe seems to be based more on deeds than simple beliefs. Those people you described actively walked in the footsteps of their favored gods.

Not really.
Well, some might believe that they do - in the same sense som people believe they go to "Heaven".

Personally, I believe in proweler's theory (It was yours, wasn't it? Me and names don't really go together) on the Dreamsleeve - you experience it as you expect afterlife to be. (Generally speaking) Nords believe they will go to feast in Sovngarde (notice the similarity the of those names - Sovn (or s?vn, if you wish) is sleep in both Norwegian and Danish, and well, "garde" reminds a lot of "guard". "Garde" is in fact the name for a group of guards in Swedish, dunno about the other Scandinavian langauges. Guess it could have been imported into Swedish as well, though), so they experience the Dreamsleeve as a big party.
Others might experience the Dreamsleeve as Aetherius - or perhaps, as their Daedra deity's realm.

Not some, everyone (almost everyone) who believes in Nine believes that he will go to Aetherius. Which is answer to OP question.

Thanks for the post guys, they've helped considerably!

I get the feeling that the Dreamsleeve is not generally known among the public of Tamriel. The beliefs of the public are probably simpler than what some of the mages know; many of the lower-ranking mages probably don't know about the Dreamsleeve either. This is just my guess, though.

If you think the only reason people worship gods is for some reward in the afterlife, or even just an imminent reward in the present, you are ignoring much of the history of religion and have an even poorer understanding of human nature. Not everyone is secretly an objectivist.

Thanks for that.

I realize there's such thing as faith and wanting to repay kindness, along with trust. However, you can't ignore facts: a large sum, if not the majority worship and base religion off objectivist wants. If not, that would be great, but it isn't exactly so.

Interesting points, Albides. I guess you're right, but if it's not to be rewarded in an afterlife, then what are the reasons?

Actual worship (and even reverence) of a deity has a deeper stem that what you grant it. Witches and warlocks and other similar Daedra worshipers will openly admit that they're only in it for the rewards; as for the rest, I'd assume that they feel some deeper connection with their given gods. Love would be a good adjective for the relationship of why they do so, for at least the Dunmer if nobody else (though I'd guess for the rest as well)... Now, I'm not saying that the worshipers don't get something out of the whole deal, if they didn't they wouldn't do it...

I think you're correct. If the dreamsleeve system were well known it would no doubt show up much more plainly in their myths (especially those concerning the afterlife)...

It is against human nature to do anything which doesn't benefit itself. Its not 'the only reason', but it is present...

Not everyone is a materialist, but they are incapable of selflessness...

Now personally I worship super hot pormstar Stoya. I even have a small shrine to her in my room, in which I can set up sacrifices to her milky white eroticism. I don't expect her to take an interest in my affairs, as I'm so far beneath her notice as to be negligible, and yet, when she does her ting I feel, or perhaps imagine, a sympathetic bond between us. As a celebrity, she's rather minor, but her hierophanies are distinctly powerful, if a bit messy.


One word; Job. And as it's enshrining a cultural value, then there's no further need for explication. This perhaps is more poignant in the story of the so-called Sumerian Job (The Sumerians: Their History, Culture and Character, Samuel Noah Kramer), because their afterllife was pretty freaking grim.

The Eden story has a similar message. Obedience above all else.

Ha, I read that as job at first as was pretty sure you'd gone off the deep end... anyway, though I don't want to get into a theological discussion, I'll go so far as to say that Job was not selfless, meaning there was perceived benefit in what he did. 'Benefits' do not necessarily have to be immediate material or physical gratification, they can be emotional, perceived or anything else that gives the person any form of gratification. There is no action that humans perform that isn't in some way self-serving, and that ranges from daily activities to childbirth to religion to becoming a martyr. Job may have gone through hell, but he knew the benefits of what he did and that's why he doesn't turn away in the story (again, not necessarily the sole reason, but its present)...

I agree because to say otherwise is to admit a person can be an automaton. This is not what people talk about as selfless. And it was not my argument.

Heh, well the social-psychologist in me likes to rear its ugly head every now and then. Sure, its not what people talk about when they talk about selflessness, because if it were then they'd never talk about it...

You've lost me here. I assume this is irony, of course, but I'm more literal minded.

I'm saying it's a lot like nationalism or unrequited love or favourite colours. It doesn't always make sense pragmatically, especially when viewed by someone's whose yardstick is rational benefit. "True" spirituality; less so. The epiphany of the mystery religion is a cheap emotional parlour trick to the secular man, but the initiate still feels profundity from it. Small epiphanies happen to the secular man too; when they watch a movie or read a book or experience a sixual climix.

And, as internet forums are largely secular, if anyone wants to dare expand that into a greater argument against blind faith, I am going to give them such a tongue lashing that they'll be throwing up chunks of their own egos for a week. Thankfully things have been nice so far.


Very good. You make my own argument for me.

As for Job, reading it as if he's deferring present enjoyment for greater future rewards is ignoring the whole message of the book.

If whatever I say affirms anything that's fine, my only point is that what society currently defines as 'selfless' is nothing more than a comforting illusion so that we won't be forced to look upon the barren selfishness that is human nature (I naturally agree with Hobbes)...

Greater future rewards isn't necessarily what I meant (even if they were there), there was also the gratification of believing what he was doing was right, the gratification of standing strong for his God and any other emotional/spiritual reward that he may have gotten from doing so (while he was enduring it); the material rewards that he literally received later are a side-note...