Wow, that's a great example of terrible logic.

To answer all your questions in one simple answer: This game was made to run on consoles not PC.

Way to not read the rest of the thread, Richard.

Edit: What you are ignoring is the fact that the Elder Scrolls series have a heritage that can be traced to the PC platform, and the very suggestion that they are designing it solely for console is, quite honestly, an insult. The Elder Scrolls used to push the envelope for what was possible in video games. Now, it's just merely a monkey-see-monkey-do franchise, hence why the focus seems to have become more centered on consoles.

The whole point of this discussion is to make clear that the Elder Scrolls need to be primarily a PC-centric development brand, not console-centric.

Your last point just utterly destroyed your credibility on these forums. Butchered it.

Though I do agree about swinging signs and trees blowing in the end. Swinging the signs are feasible, but I realise that have blowing trees takes a massive graphical toll.

That's true and everything but we're talking about Skyrim. Not the past TES games that were made for PC. Skyrim is made for console, that's why it's missing all those features. Just simplifying an answer for questions asked thousands of times over. Yea Bethesda could have made this game with all those features but they didn't because it wouldn't work on the console. Yes I would love it if they did include all those things in the game but the answer to all those questions comes down to one thing: Skyrim. is. made. for. console. so. they. can't add. all. that. stuff. you. get. what. i. mean?

Do I really care about credibility? No.

Credibility is easy to fake - therefore, there is no worth in credibility of any stripe apart from the trust you have with your colleagues.

Anyway, as it is, Skyrim is not technologically more advanced than Oblivion - it's just...a minor cut above Oblivion. As far as I can tell you, it's been made with almost the same the same code as Oblivion, but with an improved graphics engine that addresses the whole "play-doh face" issue, and none of the bells and whistlesa re in Skyrim that most gamers have come to expect from titles produced in this century.

I could be wrong, of course, but the crux of my argument hinges on the fact that there just isn't any real support for PC-centric features such as physics processing. I don't care for the counter-argument of "it was designed for consoles". That is just a bad excuse to save a couple million dollars on production costs. You want a happy, five-plus years of Skyrim players on PC? Put some real effort into the PC version, then.




Really? That's all your counter-argument is? "PC version is gimped because of the console platform's limitations"...do you have any idea just how much game dev talent is wasted on the console-centric game development track? The console version will not have any real lasting power on the platform, because there just isn't any way for mods to make it onto that platform. My opinion, and my perspective on game development is this: If you're going to spend six years from pre-production, to the finished product, I would prefer to put the majority of effort onto the platform that will have the most staying power. And that platform for the Elder Scrolls franchise is the PC.

Just look at Oblivion. Do people still play Oblivion on the console today, after all the DLC? Hardly.
Do people still play Oblivion on the PC? Just one glance at TESNexus gives the answer.

I never thought cloth simulation looked good in any game that used it, it just always ends up in the uncanny valley...

And I never thought free-flowing clothes pinned to skeletons looked good either.

It's not a counter argument or even an argument at all. It's not my opinion that this game is made for console, it's the straight up truth. I'll even say it officially, "PC version is gimped because of the console platform's limitations." It's no big secret but you seem to have a hard time accepting this fact. You can gripe all you want that they should have developed this game for PC utilizing all it's power so that you can have your cloth simulations but in the end you'll still play this game even though it's a console port and just have to put up with no cloth simulation. Maybe someone will make a cloth simulation mod for you so keep hoping.

Perhaps you can indulge me with your "terrific" logic instead?

Then you probably don't understand the purpose of this thread. Maybe it's meant to criticize Bethseda's decisions, and hopefully get them to look in the right direction and maybe hopefully add the lacking features in a future patch?

After all, PC platforms are known to be much more flexible. And no, it's impossible to create a "cloth simulation mod". Cloth simulation is essentially a core aspect of the game engine, like AI processing is a core aspect of the game. You have to have it in the game engine before you can use cloth simulation, and we all know it's impossible unless a third party modder somehow gets his/her hands on the actual source code to the Creation Engine.

One word.... MODS

Or 12-21-12 BTW I've heard Todd say that working on games for PC is a total nightmare.

I will admit right away that I only read to the multiplayer part of this, particularly the "NO" part. YES IT WOULD [censored] AFFECT US! You ignorant son of.. ARGH! Usually I would delete that part, take a civilized approach, but the fact that you say it like that, either means you loco ignorant, or downright stupid. I prefer to place my bet on the first, so I'll enlighten you.

First off, YOU want this game to compete with a game obviously designed for multiplayer, something this game is NOT. Its the same reason people are whining about destruction magic. People has gotten so stuck in the mindset of multiplayer, and balacing, that they simply can't enjoy a good old adventure game. It won't be long (if it hasn't already happend) before we have people complaining about "Too much talk in the game". Anyway I'm getting off point. Point is, if you make this into a multiplayer, then pvp will have to be addressed (we already have to live with the indestructive NPC's.. Adding more of that only serve to kill the RPG part of the game even more). So now we have multiplayer with pvp, at the very least duels... And what ALWAYS has to follow when you have a player vs player environment today, even if its just a tiny part of the game? Balance... Now half the effort of the game delevopment will have to dedicated to this part of the game, taking away from all the rest. Now we get less of the stuff that makes the game what it is, and of that thing that always leads to the death of an RPG, and the birth of a competitive pvp game... Multiplayer.

I guess in away, as soon as you start wanting or needing to calculate DPS, and numbers, and where to grind stuff (going to the same mine twice because it has gold isn't the same as grinding), is essentially when immersion dies, and with, the RPG part. Once thats gone, why do we need the long NPC talks? And why does mining take so freaking long for 2 ore pieces? and why can't we have a bigger world? More professions? Guilds? Maybe an Arena? Why not just make an MMO while we are at it, I'm sure an MMO Elder Scrolls would be a big hit (with everyone but the fans who was part of getting Bethesda to the point where they could afford to make it).

Another thing people seem to forget, is this is NOT AN MMO (I believe I mentioned that?). That means it doesn't get "patches with new content" and all that other jazz. It gets fixes, some DLC, and thats it! I have seen several posts from people wanting a complete rework of several integral parts of the game.. I mean seriously what are you people thinking?

If you want this sort of jazz, go play a game thats designed for it, and stop trying to pull the Elder Scrolls series that way. If we are lucky we'll get one or two more games like this, BEFORE it falls into the MMO trap.

Rant over.

Uh, Neverwinter Nights is a game designed for both singleplayer and multiplayer and is one of the most flexible RPGs out there - Aurora Editor, hello? There's even a function that lets you make sure people joining your server has the same mods the server has enabled. I don't see why Elder Scrolls can't at least replicate this.

And also, about Todd's comment about developing for the PC? Of course it can be a nightmare, but only if you make it so. Believe me when I say this: Todd has been spoiled rotten by the universal standards offered by the console platform. Therefore, I do not believe him to be the foremost authority on RPG development for the PC platform. In fact, the very suggestion that he can't handle PC game development, tells me that he is unfit to be a full time game developer.

And to the guy saying "One word...MODS"...Uh, as I've said before, cloth simulation mods are IMPOSSIBLE. Simply because cloth simulation has to be built into the game engine itself. Mods simply are scripts and asset additions/alterations to the game, and rarely touches on the core programming of the game engine. Such programming requires the source code or several years' worth of reverse engineering (which is prohibited by law).

Then why do you expect something more out of TES that you know won't happen? If you have such a view of the devs

Also, a question to something you said in an earlier post, why exactly is it a "right direction" to go the direction you're suggesting? And why does it need to be "PC-centric" even though it's doing just fine right now? Plus why all the hate on the consoles?

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And as a little bit of a side note and not to anybody in particular, but what is it that makes people want every game to have multiplayer and/or co-op these days? I have literally seen people say about other games that they svck just because they don't have co-op. What's going in these days? And sure mp and co-op is fun, but still…

Because I'm looking at it from a modder's perspective? I wanted to have more fun with new features over Oblivion, but it seems like we're just getting the same-old, same-old. Which means nearly everything in Oblivion will probably be very easy to port over to Skyrim. There's no excitement in that at all!

Translation, just what I wrote earlier: "Whaaa Whhhhha. If they put in parts of the game that let others play together and have fun, it might, possible, sort'a, somehow take a part of MY fun away. I don't have anyone to play with, and I don't want anyone else to be able to either then! No no no, I'm going to stand on a chair and pull up my dress and squeal like I saw a mouse when they say MP. MY fun ONLY; nobody elses!"

But surely not everything that you can do has been thought of during Oblivion's time. Maybe just a different perspective on things is needed and tackling the game from a completely different place or mindset instead of trying to make some old things more updated or more visually updated.

It′s a console game, simply converted to PC.

Only mods can make a PC game out of it. And that happens right now, step by step.

It would seem you have little knowledge about how game design works.
It's not something you "just put in". There's quite literally almost no line of code that wouldn't have to be changed to reflect that there _MIGHT_ be more than one player in at time. That's millions upon millions of lines of code. They'd have to change. Basicly every single tiny part of the game. Then there's the whole technical part, sustaining network, keeping it synchronized, exchanging data, keeping track of what the other person(s) might be doing. It's a very huge amount work!

How would fast travel work? How would resting work? How would loading work? Would you like the game not to pause when entering the menus to change items / drink a potion, or should it pause the other players?
There's endless of issues that'd appear with multiplayer. Saying it wouldn't change things for people who prefer singleplayer is just showing that one have no idea what you're talking about.

Well. I took the time to look up Skyrim's Wikipedia article as well as do some checking on http://www.havok.com/products/cloth. It seems that Bethseda used Havok's AI toolset. And now that I think about it, it's possible they used Havok Cloth for some of the environmental objects, like the ragged flags we see flapping in various places. (Don't know if it really is Havok Cloth or not, though)

But if Havok Cloth is in the game engine, why isn't it used on character clothes? That's just one thing I don't understand. Is the dev team so talentless as to fall back to the design and production methods used in Oblivion to produce the assets?

Now, I'm not knocking Skyrim or the devs' efforts as a whole - it's a fantastic game. It's just, when I look at it, it feels like a new layer of gloss has been put over Oblivion and set in a new environment. What I am criticizing is the fact that characters are the most common thing we interact with in a game like Skyrim, and it seems like the devs couldn't have been arsed to at least go the whole nine yards in making them believable? Of course, that includes what they wear.

P.S. Please view the link posted above, and watch the youtube video embedded in that page - it's a demo of the Havok Cloth physics.

Also, here's an example of Havok-enabled capes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdnb4A0Xbbk&feature=player_embedded&list=PL7148217497DB5311

I don't see how this is impossible with Skyrim.

Other than DX11 and the UI, none of them have anything to do with PC. Cloth Simulation is possible on the consoles as well. Bethesda just didn't do it. The hair, don't even mention the hair, I don't know how it got pass alpha stage.