Questions from reading the Sermons

Post » Sun May 08, 2011 12:22 am

I'm reading through the 36 Lessons of Vivec again, hoping to make more sense of them than I have in the past. In that, I'm not succeeding well.

In Sermon 2, I'm completely puzzled by
But the Daedroth did not give her back her eyes, saying:
'God hath three keys; of birth, of machines, and of the words between.'
Within this Sermon the wise may find one half of these keys.


And in Sermon 3, I don't understand
'We Dwemer are only aspirants to this that the Velothi have. They shall be our doom in this and the eight known worlds, NIRN, LHKAN, RKHET, THENDR, KYNRT, AKHAT, MHARA, and JHUNAL.'

They're listing the Aedra, but exclude Dibella and Zenithar in favor of Nirn and Lorkhan. Why is that?

Then Sermon 10
Vivec says unto the Hortator remember the words of Boet-hi-ah:

We pledge ourselves to you, the Frame-maker, the Scarab: a world for us to love you in, a cloak of dirt to cherish. Betrayed by your ancestors when you were not even looking. Hoary Magnus and his ventured opinions cannot sway the understated, a trick worthy of the always satisfied. A short season of towers, a rundown absolution, and what is this, what is this but fire under your eyelid?

Shift ye in your skin, I say to the Trinimac-eaters. Pitch your voices into the color of bruise. Divide ye like your enemies, in Houses, and lay your laws in set sequence from the center, again like the enemy Corners of the House of Troubles, and see yourself thence as timber, or mud-slats, or sheets of resin. Then do not divide, for yet is the stride of SITHISIT quicker than the rush of enemies, and He will sunder the whole for the sake of a shingle.

For we go different, and in thunder. SITHISIT is the start of all true Houses, built against stasis and lazy slaves. Turn from your predilections, broken like false maps. Move and move like this. Quicken against false fathers, mothers left in corners weeping for glass and rain. Stasis asks merely for nothing, for itself, which is nothing, as you were in the eight everlasting imperfections.

So the latter is something Boethiah said? He's clearly referring to Lorkhan and the creation of Mundus in the first paragraph, but I don't comprehend anything after that, like Magnus not swaying the understated, and short seasons of towers.
The Trinimac-eaters are the daedra I suppose?
That bit at the end about stasis and eight everlasting imperfections; that's referring to the Anuic nature of the Aedra?
I really don't get what's being said. Is it some sort of inspirational speech given to the daedra against the aedra? I'm not sure that's it, but even if it is, what's the significance of it within the sermon?

That's all for now, any explanations and insights would be greatly appreciated.
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Sophie Payne
 
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Post » Sun May 08, 2011 5:15 am

They're listing the Aedra, but exclude Dibella and Zenithar in favor of Nirn and Lorkhan. Why is that?


I'd say the reason the Dwemer are excluding Dibella is, at least from the Dunmer point of view (and this was written by a Dunmer for the Dunmer), that they know nothing about beauty. :nod:
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Emmi Coolahan
 
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Post » Sun May 08, 2011 3:06 am

I'd say the reason the Dwemer are excluding Dibella is, at least from the Dunmer point of view (and this was written by a Dunmer for the Dunmer), that they know nothing about beauty. :nod:

Ah, of course. "Love, an emotion the Dwemer knew nothing about." So Dibella isn't a known plane[t] to them. How obvious; thank you.
But Zenithar is still confusing, as is the inclusion of Nirn and Lorkhan...

I love the imagery in Sermon 11 of Ayem as the stars, Seht as the sea, and Vehk as the air. So elegantly describes them.
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jessica Villacis
 
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Post » Sun May 08, 2011 8:04 am

Ah, of course. "Love, an emotion the Dwemer knew nothing about." So Dibella isn't a known plane[t] to them. How obvious; thank you.
But Zenithar is still confusing, as is the inclusion of Nirn and Lorkhan...

It seems to me they were just listing the celestial bodies, which would include Nirn and the Moons, Lorkhan.

Also, I believe Boethiah is addressing the Velothi in Sermon 10. The Trinimac-eaters are his followers. And from Sermon 32:
'Velothi, your skin has become the pregnant darkness. My brooding has brought this on. Remember that Boethiah asked you to become the color of bruise. How else to show yourselves people of the exodus into the vital: pain?

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dav
 
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Post » Sun May 08, 2011 9:16 am

I see. Guess there's something to be said for not jumping to conclusions, and taking the text as a whole before jumbling up the bits of it.
I was going completely astray in associating the eating of Trinimac with daedra, just because Boethiah is a daedra. As a speech to the Chimer, those directions make sense. Much obliged.
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Heather Kush
 
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Post » Sun May 08, 2011 4:09 am

Ah, of course. "Love, an emotion the Dwemer knew nothing about." So Dibella isn't a known plane[t] to them. How obvious; thank you.

Nice catch.

Can't offer any useful thoughts on those other questions.
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Elisabete Gaspar
 
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Post » Sat May 07, 2011 10:12 pm

Ah, of course. "Love, an emotion the Dwemer knew nothing about." So Dibella isn't a known plane[t] to them. How obvious; thank you.
But Zenithar is still confusing, as is the inclusion of Nirn and Lorkhan...


Velorien has Nirn and Lorkhan covered... I'm not sure about Zenithar, considering that he's the god of craftsmanship, which is a concept the Dwemer certainly knew plenty about. Maybe a dig at their crafts, particularly their machines, being overly practical and scientific, rather than having artistry to them? Not sure.

(Unless THENDR is Zenithar rather than Stendarr, which might be interesting...)
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Amy Masters
 
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Post » Sun May 08, 2011 5:42 am

Velorien has Nirn and Lorkhan covered... I'm not sure about Zenithar, considering that he's the god of craftsmanship, which is a concept the Dwemer certainly knew plenty about. Maybe a dig at their crafts, particularly their machines, being overly practical and scientific, rather than having artistry to them? Not sure.

(Unless THENDR is Zenithar rather than Stendarr, which might be interesting...)

Stendarr being the Patron of Mercy, I can see how that might work out.
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Ashley Tamen
 
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Post » Sat May 07, 2011 10:59 pm

I think the Stendarr idea seems most likely,as you could argue love which the Dwemer didn't have is connected to mercy.Plus the dwemer may rely on technology alot,but the orreries(sp?) seem to have a lot of craftmanship put into them,particulary the one in Redguard.

Edit : I just realized i'm contradicting myself here.If the Dwemer knew nothing of love and abandoned mercy (stendarr) because of this,why would they have Mara as a god?
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Crystal Clarke
 
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Post » Sun May 08, 2011 8:46 am

Was it said in the game "Morrowind" that Zenithar is the god of commerce? Maybe this means a lack of emphasis on commerce -- being more interested in religion, for example.
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Britta Gronkowski
 
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Post » Sun May 08, 2011 7:26 am

Was it said in the game "Morrowind" that Zenithar is the god of commerce? Maybe this means a lack of emphasis on commerce -- being more interested in religion, for example.

Well,he is also the god of work and labour,but I guess it could be argued that the Dwemer would rely on machines more.Maybe Zenithar does replace Stendarr then *shrugs*
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des lynam
 
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Post » Sun May 08, 2011 9:01 am

I read the exclusion of Dibella and Zenithar for Nirn and Lorkhan as some inner insight the Dwemer had, not a blindless to those two spheres. Think of the Loveletter, all is love, right? Its a pantheist solution, eliminate "god" by saying "all is god". Nirn = Love, and who is the great crafter, who made the world? It could definitely be Lorkhan.
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Kelli Wolfe
 
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Post » Sun May 08, 2011 2:43 am

In reference to sermon 2, I had always assumed that s/he was speaking of the ALMSIVI. Ayem as birth (the mother), Seht as the machine (the clockwork city), and Vehk as the words between (the lord of middle air). Not sure on how half of them are to be found. Vivec's past birth is mentioned, and the primordial marriages could count as the "words between" I suppose.
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Myles
 
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Post » Sun May 08, 2011 2:25 am

In reference to sermon 2, I had always assumed that s/he was speaking of the ALMSIVI. Ayem as birth (the mother), Seht as the machine (the clockwork city), and Vehk as the words between (the lord of middle air). Not sure on how half of them are to be found. Vivec's past birth is mentioned, and the primordial marriages could count as the "words between" I suppose.

That was my first impression, but I was tripped up by "half". How do you find half of three? Not a whole integer. Confusing.
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Tamara Dost
 
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Post » Sun May 08, 2011 2:02 pm

I'd also like to ask a question in regards to the Sermons. Does Vivec want the Nerevarine to kill him? If so, why? If not, why do I get that impression every time I read them?
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marina
 
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Post » Sun May 08, 2011 1:26 am

And in Sermon 3, I don't understand
They're listing the Aedra, but exclude Dibella and Zenithar in favor of Nirn and Lorkhan. Why is that?

They may not have existed at the time of the writing.
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Janette Segura
 
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Post » Sun May 08, 2011 3:50 am

I'd also like to ask a question in regards to the Sermons. Does Vivec want the Nerevarine to kill him? If so, why? If not, why do I get that impression every time I read them?

Thousands of years of guilt comes to mind.
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Marcia Renton
 
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Post » Sun May 08, 2011 1:54 am

Thousands of years of guilt comes to mind.

He claimed it was Vivec, the mortal, that killed Nerevar though. Would he still retain the guilt and even after so long? I don't really see how Nerevar killing him would make things right.
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Pants
 
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Post » Sun May 08, 2011 1:23 am

He claimed it was Vivec, the mortal, that killed Nerevar though. Would he still retain the guilt and even after so long? I don't really see how Nerevar killing him would make things right.

The fact that the sin was technically committed by a metaphysically distinct entity doesn't alleviate the personal feeling of guilt, though... And the massive span of time would only serve to exacerbate the weight of his conscious, I would think.
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tiffany Royal
 
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Post » Sun May 08, 2011 4:19 pm

I can't find the passage at the moment but I seem to recall Vivec saying in the sermons that he would kill the Hortator again and again or something to that affect, as though he wanted to teach something to him. I got the impression that he wanted the Nerevarine to kill him in order to succeed him.

I wish I had the time to read through it all again and quote what I'm referring to specifically, but hopefully someone will remember and clear me up on it.
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louise fortin
 
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Post » Sun May 08, 2011 2:33 am

I can't find the passage at the moment but I seem to recall Vivec saying in the sermons that he would kill the Hortator again and again or something to that affect, as though he wanted to teach something to him. I got the impression that he wanted the Nerevarine to kill him in order to succeed him.

I wish I had the time to read through it all again and quote what I'm referring to specifically, but hopefully someone will remember and clear me up on it.

I'm going to take up my reading again later tonight and probably finish the Sermons, so I'll keep an eye out for it.
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Kellymarie Heppell
 
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Post » Sun May 08, 2011 7:26 am

He claimed it was Vivec, the mortal, that killed Nerevar though. Would he still retain the guilt and even after so long? I don't really see how Nerevar killing him would make things right.

Vehk the God and Vehk the Mortal share mind and memories. The God is simply the sleeping timelessness behind the veil; what you see is always the Mortal.
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Sakura Haruno
 
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Post » Sun May 08, 2011 3:18 am

What is Vivec's Water Face?

And in Sermon 18,
Vivec entered the Mourning Hold and announced to Ayem that he was going to fight nine monsters that had escaped the Muatra.
...
Ayem said, 'Out of nine you will find only eight, though they be mighty. The last is already destroyed by your decision to create the Book of Hours.'
Vivec understood that Ayem meant himself.

What is the Book of Hours, and what does Almalexia mean?
The whole sermon puzzles me.
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SamanthaLove
 
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Post » Sun May 08, 2011 4:10 am

Also, in Sermon 19, can
Vivec then saw the moths that would come from the starry heart, bringing with them dust more horrible than the ash of Red Mountain. He saw the twin head of a ruling king who had no equivalent. And eight imperfections rubbed into precious stones, set into a crown that looked like shackles, which he understood to be the twin crowns of the two-headed king. And a river that fed into the mouth of the two-headed king, because he contained multitudes.
be understood as a reference to Akatosh/Lorkhan? Had the idea of their positions and duality been conceived yet when this was written? Or am I completely off-track?
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e.Double
 
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Post » Sun May 08, 2011 3:51 pm

What is Vivec's Water Face?


I'm not sure what it is on a mechanical level (as in, what it looks like, I assume the name isn't by chance though), but VIvec's water face has the practical effect of him wearing it being the only time you're guaranteed to get the truth out of Vivec.
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Kelvin
 
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