Questions on gameplay of race rebalancing Project 10.5

Post » Sat May 28, 2011 11:24 am

The mod in question is race rebalancing http://theelderscrolls.info/?go=9XReadMeBalancingProject and the reason I wanted to use that mod is first of all the intrigue and novelty of new mechanics to races. Second it truly rebalances (I believe) so that for example, there is a reason to play anything other than a Breton Autronoch.

I think I am going to make my first character a Bosmer and so I have the question what does 25 fire frost shock resist mean WITH 25 magic weakness? What is the net effect of a fireball? would it be leveled out 25 minus 25? Or something else?

The second question I have is on the serpent birthsign. It looks really cool and actually I have two questions. Serpent gives immunity to poison, but is that just 100 resistance? Or in other words would a bosmer with -75 weakness to poison now have 25 resistance or would immunity rule over? Second question on the serpent sign is if anyone has any experience with this sign? You get 250 weakness to frost and I am thinking that this is just going to be a crippling dealbreaker for this sign. For example you wouldn't be able to fight ghosts at low levels. And throughout your career whenever an enemy mage zaps you with frost you would go down hard. Of course by the end of the game the effect would be less as you accumulate more frost resistance/shield/magic resistance/reflect/absorb.... The basic question is whether serpent is playable.
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Terry
 
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Post » Sat May 28, 2011 9:13 pm

With RBP 10.5 and SI (Don't know if it works differently without SI) the Bosmer has 50% elemental resistances and 25% weakness to magic (yes, the readme lies :P).
The Magic is a thing, the Element another. With 100% fire resistance I can be hit by a fireball and take NO damage, no matter if I have 25% weakness to magic, when if I'm hit by an Entropic Touch (Damage Health), I take the effect of the malus. I think (but I'm not sure) that the weakness is calculated first, then the elemental resistances, so, for example, If I'm hit by a 100 damage fireball with 25% weakness to magic and 100% resistance to fire, I resist 125 damage and not 100. The thing is different if I have a Resist and a Weakness of the same tipe. Let's assume that I have 50% Shock Resistance and the RBP Shadow Birthsign (25% Weakness to Shock): Resistance and Weakness fight each other, coexisting in my active effects tab, but I can notice that if somebody hit me with a Shock spell I don't suffer the 25% of the damage (50% Resistance of the Bosmer - 25% Weakness of the Shadow), so with the Poison should be the same thing. (I hope it is clear... My English is primitive).

I cannot answer your second question about the Serpent because I never played it... I currently have a Bosmer with the Shadow Birthsign (You would never have guessed I beat :P) and I played the Thief, the Atronach and the Lady previously, because I always try to make Race and Birthsign match.

I hope it has been useful
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bonita mathews
 
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Post » Sat May 28, 2011 11:19 am

Yes very helpful I thank you...

That even answers a bit of my question on the serpent because I must get 50 frost resistance which will help me with the 250 frost penalty. I might try it to see how serpent is but yes I think bosmer should be easy to get 100 resists on elements...

The serpent has some nice bonuses with poison immunity (maybe 100 bonus? or overwrite to 100) life detection, magicka bonus, and regeneration of health magicka and fatigue......

Anyhow thanks for the input. Just curious if you ran this mod with OOO? Did you think the changes to magicka costs caused any imbalance with the spells available for purchase in OOO. Specific I was thinking of the Drain Life spells which are unavailable to create in OOO, but that you can buy and they are appropriately rare/costly on magicka. I reasoned if magicka was increased by a lot and it didn't also appropriately scale the cost of those drain spells that the RRP might unbalance OOO a tiny bit.
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Lillian Cawfield
 
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Post » Sun May 29, 2011 12:58 am

Use Less Annoying Magic Experience, AKA LAME. It's a nice magic overhaul that was made by the same person.
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X(S.a.R.a.H)X
 
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Post » Sat May 28, 2011 1:43 pm

Just curious if you ran this mod with OOO? Did you think the changes to magicka costs caused any imbalance with the spells available for purchase in OOO. Specific I was thinking of the Drain Life spells which are unavailable to create in OOO, but that you can buy and they are appropriately rare/costly on magicka. I reasoned if magicka was increased by a lot and it didn't also appropriately scale the cost of those drain spells that the RRP might unbalance OOO a tiny bit.


It was a while ago I used RBP so I can't answer that specifically, but personally I think that the upped Magicka regen in RPB alone unbalances the game.
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Ice Fire
 
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Post » Sat May 28, 2011 8:47 pm

I use OOO with RBP and also LAME (by the same mod maker) and I have no issues with balance. I also use a Bosmer character with the Atronach birthsign. You get a very slow magicka regen with that combination which is nice. However I do not use any of the drain life spells so cannot speak to those directly. Remember if you choose to use armors, your magicka is severely stunted (can't remember if this is RBP or LAME, it's been a while since I referred to the readme's) so I believe it works out quite nicely in terms of balance. I still get my behind handed to me on a regular basis ;)
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mollypop
 
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Post » Sat May 28, 2011 5:53 pm

I also use a Bosmer character with the Atronach birthsign. You get a very slow magicka regen with that combination which is nice.


You get magicka regen with The Atronach with RBP?

Anyway, as I remembered it I basically didn't have to think about the magicka pool as it regenerated so fast - it basically made it possible to cast destruction spells continuously forever. Nothing against RBP/LAME per se, but their vision of how the game should be differ vastly from OOO's. Nothing wrong to use both with OOO of course, but it's basically not OOO anymore IMO - so it seems to me to be a moot point to wonder about some microbalancing considering a particular spell.
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Stefanny Cardona
 
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Post » Sat May 28, 2011 10:21 pm

Yeah, it's part of their green-pact race balance or whatever, it's like 1 point every so many seconds or something.

*scratches head* ... Man, I've never been able to cast destruction spells like that. I run out of magicka regularly. Maybe though it's because I've never used a character as a strict mage or played with Altmer or Breton?
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Causon-Chambers
 
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Post » Sat May 28, 2011 10:53 pm

Remember if you choose to use armors, your magicka is severely stunted (can't remember if this is RBP or LAME, it's been a while since I referred to the readme's) so I believe it works out quite nicely in terms of balance. I still get my behind handed to me on a regular basis ;)

RBP does that and I found it very annoying as I'm playing a battlemage and have mods like Armamentarium which adds a ton of cool armors. It doesn't make any sense that a mage will somehow lose half his spellcasting ability if he puts on a pair of boots and gloves, let alone greaves, a helmet, chestplate... Rather than horribly punishing mages with armor penalties, I think equiping armor should just slow down magic cooldowns. Perhaps negate shield spells as well.

As things stand I'm stuck using bgBalancingVanillaGMSTArmorPenalty.esp
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Ridhwan Hemsome
 
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Post » Sun May 29, 2011 1:55 am

Yeah I never looked into the magicka regeneration with RRP. The author seemed to explain that at high levels you still get the same result. In other words you may have 5000 magicka (he used an actual and not illustrative example as I am using) but your cost of a fireball dealing 100 damage proportionally increases. So you still get 5 casts of fireball 100. He said that the difference was that you get a boost in magicka early on (although you don't receive the full effect of race/sign at level 1 in his system) but he felt that this only changed, but did not 'ruin' the system. For me the question is whether I can get an enjoyable experience when combining the two mods. Another difference in RRP results in a gain when unarmored which I find positive.

Regeneration is a separate issue from magicka pool size versus cost per cast. You could have a balanced number of fireballs per emptying of magicka pool, but if your pool is regenerating too fast that could be out of balance.

In light that I like the 'balancing' feature of this mod I may just try it out and tune the difficulty slider to get a nice game experience.

Another question I have (and I wonder if some of the same OOO knowledgeable people will reply back in this post),,,, is whether the lost spire mod would fit in well with the OOO experience. I mean would the lost spire content feel like you had walked into an entire new world? Secondly, would the locations of the lost spire content erase some locations which were vital to OOO. If nobody answers I'll make a separate question, but I wondered if the previous poster, Arkngt, would happen to notice this thread again this week.

The reason I even think of RRP + OOO is that the races need rebalancing. In vanilla there is little reason to play anything other than a Breton Atronach though of course you can role play orc mages to your heart's content and bosmer warrior's.
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Jason Wolf
 
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Post » Sun May 29, 2011 3:29 am

*scratches head* ... Man, I've never been able to cast destruction spells like that. I run out of magicka regularly. Maybe though it's because I've never used a character as a strict mage or played with Altmer or Breton?


I almost always play Breton/Mage so I guess that was it with RBP as well. Combined with OOO's Willpower based magicka regen it made for an insane regen rate IIRC. It was the major reason I stopped using it - lots of cool stuff in it otherwise.
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..xX Vin Xx..
 
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Post » Sat May 28, 2011 3:37 pm

Anyway, as I remembered it I basically didn't have to think about the magicka pool as it regenerated so fast - it basically made it possible to cast destruction spells continuously forever. Nothing against RBP/LAME per se, but their vision of how the game should be differ vastly from OOO's. Nothing wrong to use both with OOO of course, but it's basically not OOO anymore IMO - so it seems to me to be a moot point to wonder about some microbalancing considering a particular spell.

Interesting. I've been using LAME for so long, such comparisons must have escaped my notice, or been forgotten, over the months (or however long it's been). Well, I suppose my characters have also mostly not been remotely the mage type - generally one or two magic skills, tops.

I wonder... do you know of any magic overhaul(s) that would be more suitable for use with OOO (FCOM, in fact)? Particularly something that might include the option of different starting spells and different Conjuration options/paths?* Those are the two features I most appreciate about LAME.

Um. /threadjack :blush:


* Other than undead and/or dremora, especially.
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Katy Hogben
 
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Post » Sat May 28, 2011 6:12 pm

Another question I have (and I wonder if some of the same OOO knowledgeable people will reply back in this post),,,, is whether the lost spire mod would fit in well with the OOO experience. I mean would the lost spire content feel like you had walked into an entire new world? Secondly, would the locations of the lost spire content erase some locations which were vital to OOO. If nobody answers I'll make a separate question, but I wondered if the previous poster, Arkngt, would happen to notice this thread again this week.


OOO and The Lost Spires are compatible - so no issues regarding that. It uses its own style for its dungeons but I think it fits in nicely in Cyrodiil. It feels a bit easy compared to OOO as it has vanilla style leveling. It's an excellent mod so if you like good quest mods you should definitely try it out.

I wonder... do you know of any magic overhaul(s) that would be more suitable for use with OOO (FCOM, in fact)? Particularly something that might include the option of different starting spells and different Conjuration options/paths?* Those are the two features I most appreciate about LAME.


I'm using Supreme Magicka this time around and it's so customizable via the ini that I find it very close to OOO if using OOO settings - and not overdoing Conjuration (it has several tweakable options regarding that) etc. Not sure if you can have different starting spells with it, though - don't think so.
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Darlene Delk
 
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Post » Sat May 28, 2011 6:54 pm

I almost always play Breton/Mage so I guess that was it with RBP as well. Combined with OOO's Willpower based magicka regen it made for an insane regen rate IIRC. It was the major reason I stopped using it - lots of cool stuff in it otherwise.


I will remember this, Arkngt, thank you. I was thinking of making a Breton Mage with the new Unholy Darkness mod but maybe I'll just make another Bosmer or Dark Elf instead. Something like what you speak of would annoy me to no end.
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Katie Samuel
 
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Post » Sat May 28, 2011 10:43 pm

I'm using Supreme Magicka this time around and it's so customizable via the ini that I find it very close to OOO if using OOO settings - and not overdoing Conjuration (it has several tweakable options regarding that) etc. Not sure if you can have different starting spells with it, though - don't think so.

Thanks, Arkngt. Perhaps I will try that one again.

And sorry for the threadjack, OP! ;)
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Zosia Cetnar
 
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Post » Sun May 29, 2011 3:13 am

The main question of the topic was about RBP, not OOO I think.
bg2408 (the time when it was arround the forum) explained his choices and made comparison between his magicka system and vanilla system.
As for other magicka system I just could point to the recommendations of skyranger-1. There is also a new magicka system proposed by tejon.
Also to mention both Skyranger-1 and tejon have mods that rebalance vanilla races.
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CSar L
 
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Post » Sat May 28, 2011 2:01 pm

.75 + .02 x Will = Magicka regeneration (Vanilla - dunno if thats what OOO uses?)
- 1+ .05 x Will = Magicka regeneration (RRP)

So I think they got something correct in making the slope of Will steeper. We need a reason for Willpower otherwise its almost a dump stat. Particularly if you are the Breton Atronach in question and therefore need not fear magical assault.

So I'll put a few data points in from 25 which is the lowest willpower starting the game up to 100


25 1.25 (vanilla) .25 (RRP) Therefore at very low Wills in RRP there is a malus on low will (I think thats good)
35 1.45 (vanilla) .75 (RRP) Moderate willed character still has a malus in the beginning
45 1.65 (vanilla) 1.25 (RRP) High will without specialization still has a malus
55 1.85 (vanilla) 1.75 (RRP) At highest starting will with specialization there is still a small malus
75 2.25 (van) 2.75 Midway of a mages career or towards the end of an unefficiently leveled non-mage now the regeneration is about 25% higher
100 2.75 (van) 4 At the end of the willpower point you get a 50% (roughly) bonus for your high will which is an enhancement to power


The thing I am unclear on is what units? I mean regeneration seems to scale to poolsize no?





Also the Dunmer gets 2 magicka regeneration/sec and Bosmer 1 magicka regeneration/sec....

These are treats to make them competitive with bretons etc.. Perhaps a little power is given to many races while removing from bretons but that is the whole point.

The mage starsign gets 2 magicka regerations/sec but they get a -20 weakness to normal weapons in return.....
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Daramis McGee
 
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Post » Sat May 28, 2011 4:56 pm

I looked for skyranger -1 and found a magicka mod (chain casting etc) but I couldn't find his race rebalancing. :( Anyone got a link to download and readme? Also Tejon if you have (I'm looking that up next thing)?

Thanks! Edit found the Tejon mod http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=22124 oops I found the wrong mod not tejon.... thats a link to the bg2408 again :(

I found skyrangers mod http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=16695 but I was not impressed as I don't much think that 1 once a day castable abilities are a good way to balance characters. I don't ever remember to use those hardly ever. In any case I found the bg2408 much more interesting...
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Elizabeth Falvey
 
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Post » Sat May 28, 2011 2:32 pm

bg2408 (the time when it was arround the forum) explained his choices and made comparison between his magicka system and vanilla system.
It?

Funny images:
http://www.tikanderoga.net/bg2408/pics/tes/RBP-Regeneration.gif
http://www.tikanderoga.net/bg2408/pics/tes/RBP-Spellcost-Reduction.gif

Quote from the FAQ:
Q: Are you really, really serious about your changes to Magicka?
A: I've got a lot of question concerning the Magicka pool ("Are you serious!?"). Now of course I'm always pointing then to all optional files to make it like in Vanilla. Nevertheless today I'd like to say a few words about that. Warning - this will be a bit of boring math now!
Magicka is a currency. You're buying spells with Magicka. Now when comparing Oblivion to Morrowind, you'll see that you get for the same amount of Magicka in Morrowind much stronger spells. So Morrowind Magicka has a higher value than Oblivion Magicka. What I'm doing is to change many aspects of Oblivion's Magicka currency - to put it bluntly, you can't easily compare them, because the currency has also another value.
Let me give you an example. And let's use an armored Altmer with Mage birthsign for it. When everything is maxed out, his Magicka is 350 in Vanilla and 1000 in RBP. Now let's say he wants to cast spells doing 100 fire damage, and his destruction level is master.
- Vanilla: One spell costs 87 Magicka. He has enough Magicka to cast 4 of them.
- RBP: One spell costs 217 Magicka. He has enough Magicka to cast 4 of them.
As you see from this example, because of many changes to how much Magicka is worth as a currency, it's not a single spell more possible. But wait, what if the Altmer goes unarmored?
- Vanilla: One spell costs 82 Magicka. He has enough Magicka to cast 4 of them.
- RBP: One spell costs 163 Magicka. He has enough Magicka to cast 6 of them.
Now there's a reason to go unarmored . This time he's got 50% more Magicka - which is still much less than 200%.
So why all these hassle when everything is only altered slightly, just with higher values? The thing is, it's not. While I did find magic due to Magicka pools in very high levels playable (like the examples given - as you see, the difference is not that high), I found magic due to Magicka pool in lower levels next to unplayable. Now let's take a look at the same Altmer, when all his stats are at 60 (which means a Magicka of 270 in Vanilla and 520 in RBP). This time he wants to deal only 35 points of fire damage. Armored, as ever:
- Vanilla: One spell costs 77 Magicka. He has enough Magicka to cast 3 of them.
- RBP: One spell costs 99 Magicka. He has enough Magicka to cast 5 of them.
Now it looks a bit different, suddenly he has nearly 70% more Magicka. And now let's take a look at him when he's unarmored!
- Vanilla: One spell costs 72 Magicka. He has enough Magicka to cast 3 of them.
- RBP: One spell costs 74 Magicka. He has enough Magicka to cast 7 of them.
And now he finally has around 135% more Magicka. Now considering that at this skill levels for most enemies he usually needs five to ten spells, he atleast has enough for one of them. The rest? Well, there's regeneration. Which also plays a major role, but isn't the topic now . I think my changes are making magic depending characters playable in medium levels (where I think they're seriously lacking Magicka in Vanilla), while not overpowering them in higher levels - where they were playable imho.
Great to have everything already written :D.

And yes, the amount of magicka is too high if another mod for magicka regeneration is used, which (now what a surprise is this?) give a lot higher values of magicka regeneration. If I would have updated the image above, you'd find mods on there with an effective regeneration of 10% and more if willpower is maxed out.
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Emma Louise Adams
 
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Post » Sat May 28, 2011 8:09 pm

It?

:)
Spoiler
english is my weaker point in these forums


Funny images:

Quote from the FAQ:Great to have everything already written :D.

And yes, the amount of magicka is too high if another mod for magicka regeneration is used, which (now what a surprise is this?) give a lot higher values of magicka regeneration. If I would have updated the image above, you'd find mods on there with an effective regeneration of 10% and more if willpower is maxed out.

I think if magicka regeneration is high or low it applies both for the player and NPCs which is not a big problem since what you get as bonus you get it in the reverse from NPC enemies (unless I'm wrong about this point). I used your mods for months (especially RBP, LAME, Integration) although they seemed for me quite dependant and some integrated aspects can be found in others mods like retroactive endurance, changes made to races, magicka system. One should be carefull when using RBP with others mods that edit the same areas.
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Leticia Hernandez
 
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