[Charles Weber]

Me? No, not me:

But if you ask me, I think that evolution is present in TES. Both Bosmer and Altmer (and Chimer) are evolved from Aldmer, and they are distinct from them. Both Aldmer and Nedics (and Yokudans) are evolved from Ehlnofey, but they are all distinct.
But I suppose the evolution in TES is quite different from real-life evolution. Maybe it's the Aurbis or something else that influence on the evolution so it goes much faster.

Certainly not me.
I just used the familiar terminology associated with evolution for convenience and because the language (or my mastery of it) is deficient.

I think that until we've got reason to think otherwise, there's no anolog to genetics in Mundus.
edit: upon thinking about it, "Notes on Racial Phylogeny" at least suggests some form of anologous inheritance, but I approach it skeptically. "Scientific" explanations in Mundus have been shot down as inadequate (and boring) before.

edit the second: Evolution in the sense of racial change over time is certainly present in the world of TES. But evolution through biological natural selection carried out by the agent of genetics? I hope not. I want something more interesting than that.
Art holds up a mirror to the world. TES presents a fun-house mirror that twists and turns and delightfully distorts familiar images, and in doing so, illuminates some (in my opinion [as everything I say necessarily is]) important underlying truths. At least, mythical truths, if not literal ones. Where's the fun and value in seeing the same things we always see in the same way they're always sighted?

As for this discussion about Orcs and Goblins, we know with pretty good certainty what their origin is, (or at least what their origin myth is, which is just as good) and it says they originated as Aldmer.
Linking them to Goblins was just ridiculous propaganda to discredit them and equate them with beasts; the idea holds no merit in light of the current understanding of Orsimeri culture and history.

[Kelly Tomlinson]

edit the second: Evolution in the sense of racial change over time is certainly present in the world of TES.

Maybe evolution means too many things to too many people.

[christelle047]

Some more, possibly ignorant, questions that I have after rereading the novel.

1) Lilmoth's city tree may have gone rogue. The novel says that Hist have a track record of going rogue in ancient times. The Lilmoth city tree is 300 years old, and was grown from a fragment of that past tree. What exactly happened 300 years ago that prompted the growth of this new tree? The "Elder's killing" of the past tree? It says that the current one was grown from a fragment of that tree that died. I have no idea how these facts are supposed to come together and explain anything. Any insights that provide perspective of the who/when/why/how?

2) I thought the description of half-tree and half-Argonian statues was interesting. Is this a significant piece to the puzzle surrounding Argonians and the Hist?

3) Are the Hist the Argonian dreamsleeve or whatever it's called? The place where deceased souls are recycled and reincarnated? It would make sense when we read about Glim seeing images of an ancient Lilmoth, maybe from past lives? When Glim is called by the Hist on page 56, he says that he was "going back to be born." And on page 91, Glim is concerned about where his soul will go if he dies. His worry comes directly following the realization that he has lost connection to the Hist.

4) Am I right in interpreting Glim's separation from the Hist (when he got to the floating city) is evidence that the Hist do not share a hive mind w/ Argonians since Glim sees to preserve his identity and person? But how do the Hist communicate with the Argonians in the first place, like beckoning Glim to return to it?

5) Page 91 and 92 shed light on Argonian reincarnation and perception of time. The Imperial mind that sees time as a linear order of events is alien to Argonians, which view time as a single moment. What can be said about Akatosh and the Argonian rejection or immunity to the aedra's ordering of time?
-------> "Or was the cycle, the eternal moment, only the Argonian way of avoiding an even more comprehensive truth?" (91)
That quote seems utterly significant to me for some reason.

6) How and why does Annaig conclude that the Umbriel's length of a year is half that of Tamriel's? How are years defined anyway? And what makes Umbriel different?

[lolly13]

Some more, possibly ignorant, questions that I have after rereading the novel.

1) Lilmoth's city tree may have gone rogue. The novel says that Hist have a track record of going rogue in ancient times. The Lilmoth city tree is 300 years old, and was grown from a fragment of that past tree. What exactly happened 300 years ago that prompted the growth of this new tree? The "Elder's killing" of the past tree? It says that the current one was grown from a fragment of that tree that died. I have no idea how these facts are supposed to come together and explain anything. Any insights that provide perspective of the who/when/why/how?

The book is the first mention of the events in question, there are no other records as far I can recall. Anyway, that whole deal is merely history repeating itself. The Tree of Lilmoth went rogue in the past, died, and then its remaining cells formed a new sprout, which also rebelled. What they come together to explain is that the Hist may not be as unified as we initially believed, and it also means that the Hist take a deep interest in Argonian culture and society.

2) I thought the description of half-tree and half-Argonian statues was interesting. Is this a significant piece to the puzzle surrounding Argonians and the Hist?

Art without context is dangerous to interpret. This could merely be a reflection of what the argonians perceive to be a mutualistic relationship between hist and Argonian, or it could reflect unexplored consequences of the Hist/Argonian relationship or even Argonian creation. We cannot be certain at this juncture.

3) Are the Hist the Argonian dreamsleeve or whatever it's called? The place where deceased souls are recycled and reincarnated? It would make sense when we read about Glim seeing images of an ancient Lilmoth, maybe from past lives? When Glim is called by the Hist on page 56, he says that he was "going back to be born." And on page 91, Glim is concerned about where his soul will go if he dies. His worry comes directly following the realization that he has lost connection to the Hist.

The HIst may perform this function for the argonians, they may not. We cannot be certain at this juncture.

4) Am I right in interpreting Glim's separation from the Hist (when he got to the floating city) is evidence that the Hist do not share a hive mind w/ Argonians since Glim sees to preserve his identity and person? But how do the Hist communicate with the Argonians in the first place, like beckoning Glim to return to it?

The Hist have some sort of psionic ability to communicate with the argonians. The seperation from the Hist shows only that the connection the trees have to the argonians is not total, and may be a form of active domination rather then a symbiotic psychic relationship. Their sap is also a powerful psychoactive drug, and they may be able to control the exact effects the sap has on people.

6) How and why does Annaig conclude that the Umbriel's length of a year is half that of Tamriel's? How are years defined anyway? And what makes Umbriel different?

I forget what Annaig's logic was, but a Tamrielic year consists of 12 months, which roughly consist of four weeks, which are divided into 24 hour days. (as of oblivion anyway) Currently, one Tamrielic year is equal to one Earth Year. (subject to change upon the release of Skyrim, gamesas hasn't been very consistent with the calendar [except they don't seem to have leap years])

[Poetic Vice]

I just read 'The Exodus', and I'm really confused about the ending. I understand they made the daughter undead but why did Rosalyn's young son appear so old? The undead don't continue to age do they?
And why were they screaming...they mustve known what would happen if they gave their nearly dead daughter to Necromancers?
I guess I just feel like I'm missing something.

[chirsty aggas]

I just read 'The Exodus', and I'm really confused about the ending. I understand they made the daughter undead but why did Rosalyn's young son appear so old? The undead don't continue to age do they?
And why were they screaming...they mustve known what would happen if they gave their nearly dead daughter to Necromancers?
I guess I just feel like I'm missing something.

The son looks old because he's undead. The whole catch in the story is that yes, you can get revived, but you don't come back right.

[Julia Schwalbe]

Ah, thanks. I just assumed it was something more profound than 'oh crap she's scary looking now'. Silly parents should know better than to zombify their kids.

[Sandeep Khatkar]

I forget what Annaig's logic was, but a Tamrielic year consists of 12 months, which roughly consist of four weeks, which are divided into 24 hour days. (as of oblivion anyway) Currently, one Tamrielic year is equal to one Earth Year. (subject to change upon the release of Skyrim, gamesas hasn't been very consistent with the calendar [except they don't seem to have leap years])

Ah, ok. I did some reading over at the Imperial Library, and realized that the year is probably determined by the sun/magnus changing position in relation to the constellations. IIRC, the constellation that Magnus rises in front of determines what month of the year it is.

But I didn't catch anything about the actual movement of celestial bodies, only that they move. Do the celestial bodies orbit one another in the way we are familiar with in our own astronomy? The moons orbit Nirn, Nirn orbits Magnus, etc?

It's been a long time since I've taken a math or geometry class, but isn't it possible to determine the diameter of Nirn by examining the curvature of the horizon?


But I still don't see how a year can be shorter in Umbriel, if the Tamriel year is determined by the moving position of Magnus' sunrise...

[Ridhwan Hemsome]

Ah, ok. I did some reading over at the Imperial Library, and realized that the year is probably determined by the sun/magnus changing position in relation to the constellations. IIRC, the constellation that Magnus rises in front of determines what month of the year it is.

That probably works.

But I didn't catch anything about the actual movement of celestial bodies, only that they move. Do the celestial bodies orbit one another in the way we are familiar with in our own astronomy? The moons orbit Nirn, Nirn orbits Magnus, etc?

TES is a geocentric system. Nirn is orbited by the moons, eight planets, and magnus.

It's been a long time since I've taken a math or geometry class, but isn't it possible to determine the diameter of Nirn by examining the curvature of the horizon?

If it is, the games would give an innaccurate horizon curvature.

But I still don't see how a year can be shorter in Umbriel, if the Tamriel year is determined by the moving position of Magnus' sunrise...

Umbriel's residents must not measure years by looking at stars.

[ezra]

After reading a one or two Nordic texts about Lorkhan and Akatosh/Alduin, are we going to see Lorkhan as an ally in TES:V in the battle against Alduin? From what I'm reading, it seems like Lorkhan is supposed to be in some cyclical patter of conflict with Alduin and victory over the dragon.

Also, maybe a can of worms, but I think I recall something saying Alduin/Akatosh is Lorkhan...

The Infernal City describes Rimmen in Elsweyr to be ruled by a new Potentate. What race is this potentate? I've only seen the term 'potentate' in reference to the Akavir ruler of the Empire way back when. In this case, is the potentate a Khajiit that took over when the mane was assassinated? I'm just a little speculative because the potentate hates the free Khajiit clans/tribes and forbids them in Rimmen. Could the Potentate be an Imperial or remnant of Imperial control over the province? The noted high presence of non-Khajiits and human guards seem to suggest this, as does Rimmen's non-participation of the civil war going on to the south.

Could the potentate of Rimmen be Akaviri? The palace is said to have a wing of Akaviri design/architecture... It could be just a relic of history, like the Cloud Temple in the Imperial Province, but its presence makes me speculative.

Can it be coincidence that a tsunami struck both the western and eastern shores of Tamriel at about the same period of time? The Imperial Library's lore notes suggest it was caused by the Landfall. Am I the only one that doesn't like this explanation? I would expect the cause of a tsunami to be caused by a landfall at sea or on another continent. And I wonder how devastated Akavir or Atmora might have been by Landfall. If it was enough energy to create a massive wave that circled the world and cause a disaster on the other side of Tamriel.

I recall reading Yokuda being destroyed or sunk into the ocean by an atomic event. Is this myth? I'm wondering how Landfall might compare in terms of kilo/mega-tons to that of the atomic event that sunk the homeland of the Redguards, assuming that we can attribute the tsunamis to Landfall I think it would have to be a close call.

Do the presence of hot springs, volcanoes and the boiling water surrounding Landfall suggest Nirn has a molten/hot inner core? Where does this energy come from? Does this also confirm or support the presence of tectonic plates and continental drift?

The Loveletter describes the Dunmer that flee Morrowind post-Landfall, make peace with the Worm. Is this suggesting an amicable conclusion to the possible plot of TES:V? I'm assuming of course that "Worm" refers to Alduin and I'm under the impression that "worm" has been used to refer to dragons in the past and in other literature.

The son looks old because he's undead. The whole catch in the story is that yes, you can get revived, but you don't come back right.

Makes me think of Pet Sematary,

[jessica robson]

The Infernal City describes Rimmen in Elsweyr to be ruled by a new Potentate. What race is this potentate? I've only seen the term 'potentate' in reference to the Akavir ruler of the Empire way back when. In this case, is the potentate a Khajiit that took over when the mane was assassinated? I'm just a little speculative because the potentate hates the free Khajiit clans/tribes and forbids them in Rimmen. Could the Potentate be an Imperial or remnant of Imperial control over the province? The noted high presence of non-Khajiits and human guards seem to suggest this, as does Rimmen's non-participation of the civil war going on to the south.

Could the potentate of Rimmen be Akaviri? The palace is said to have a wing of Akaviri design/architecture... It could be just a relic of history, like the Cloud Temple in the Imperial Province, but its presence makes me speculative.

I seem to recall something about Rimmen being settled by Akaviri Men, but people don't like to talk about Akaviri Men.

[KIng James]

... thought he might rid Cyrodiil of the foreigners who had ruled it for the first half of the Common Era... where they dwelt in relative seclusion until remnants of the Dir-Kamal resurfaced in Cyrodiil, seizing the Throne from Attrebus' successors.

[Princess Johnson]

There is talk of Rimmen being settled by descendants of the Tsaesci. Akaviri men are a theory to excuse the bipedal skeletons in Pale Pass. My guess would be an Imperial or imperialized Khajiit as the new potentate.

[Chase McAbee]

The Infernal City describes Rimmen in Elsweyr to be ruled by a new Potentate. What race is this potentate? I've only seen the term 'potentate' in reference to the Akavir ruler of the Empire way back when. In this case, is the potentate a Khajiit that took over when the mane was assassinated? I'm just a little speculative because the potentate hates the free Khajiit clans/tribes and forbids them in Rimmen. Could the Potentate be an Imperial or remnant of Imperial control over the province? The noted high presence of non-Khajiits and human guards seem to suggest this, as does Rimmen's non-participation of the civil war going on to the south.

Could the potentate of Rimmen be Akaviri? The palace is said to have a wing of Akaviri design/architecture... It could be just a relic of history, like the Cloud Temple in the Imperial Province, but its presence makes me speculative.

The golden rule with Akavir, unless specifically mentioned, NO AKAVIR! In this case, the potentate refers to just a ruler. Looking at the definition, courtesy of Dictionary.com, the word 'potentate' means "a person who possesses great power, as a sovereign, monarch, or ruler." In all likelihood, it's some imperial or something, and not some snakeman.

Can it be coincidence that a tsunami struck both the western and eastern shores of Tamriel at about the same period of time? The Imperial Library's lore notes suggest it was caused by the Landfall. Am I the only one that doesn't like this explanation? I would expect the cause of a tsunami to be caused by a landfall at sea or on another continent. And I wonder how devastated Akavir or Atmora might have been by Landfall. If it was enough energy to create a massive wave that circled the world and cause a disaster on the other side of Tamriel.

The Landfall in the Loveletters is not the Landfall that happened. Only Morrowind got wrecked, as of now until further notice.

I recall reading Yokuda being destroyed or sunk into the ocean by an atomic event. Is this myth? I'm wondering how Landfall might compare in terms of kilo/mega-tons to that of the atomic event that sunk the homeland of the Redguards, assuming that we can attribute the tsunamis to Landfall I think it would have to be a close call.

Yokuda was sunk because the extreme master swordsmen caused a nuclear explosion, and that isn't myth. Yokuda is now nothing more than tiny islands. And as I said earlier, what happened wasn't the Landfall that happened in the Loveletters. To use a comparison, I'd say the asteroid that killed the dinos is the event that happened in the Landfall for the Loveletters.

Do the presence of hot springs, volcanoes and the boiling water surrounding Landfall suggest Nirn has a molten/hot inner core? Where does this energy come from? Does this also confirm or support the presence of tectonic plates and continental drift?

Nirn is nothing more than a bunch of pieces of aedra and aedra stuck together. Leave science out of this, as it doesn't fit the context of the story.

[Mrs Pooh]

Ah yes, just saw that in the 1st Pocket Guide. The 3rd Pocket Guide doesn't say anything about that however.

So I guess it might be possible Rimmen is home to Akaviri men. The novel refers to the guards and humans there as simply "humans" without specifically saying "Bretons" or "Imperials."

But than again, the regulators (hired mercenarys/guards I guess) that confront Attrebus and Sul are led by a Nibenese Captain Evernal.

Which brings more questions. If Captain Evernal was a soldier for the Empire (he fought for Attrebus' father and wears a badge that shows this), why is he in Elsweyr working for the potentate (referred to as a "thug" by Attrebus)? Could he be a deserter or a retired soldier? It doesn't seem likely that he was stationed there as part of the Empire's military.

And of course we know the Akaviri propensity for mercenaries (the Fighter's Guild). So various races of men would not be precluded from employment I would imagine.


EDIT: This post written while previous two posts were posted. Making this post mostly unnecessary,

[Jade Muggeridge]

He likely deserted, but not due to being a coward.

[Tina Tupou]

There is talk of Rimmen being settled by descendants of the Tsaesci. Akaviri men are a theory to excuse the bipedal skeletons in Pale Pass. My guess would be an Imperial or imperialized Khajiit as the new potentate.

That quote suggests Dir-Kamal and Tsaesci. The Tsaesci weren't loved, but the Cyrodiil coveted their bloodline. That's why Tiber's celebrated for killing the snakes, and half-breeds flaunt their heritage. It's almost as if the Cyrodiil consumed the Tsaesci.

[Gemma Woods Illustration]

There is no Emperor and no Heir but seemly the Empire still exist more or less in Skyrim and that takes 200 years after the oblivion crisis, so 200 years in the fourth age ... I am sure this has com'up before but it's the devs who deside, trough I am still wondering what happend after the 'champion of cyrodill' and his best pal Martin Septim turining into a Dragon ....

Any clue's ?

[candice keenan]

There is no Emperor and no Heir but seemly the Empire still exist more or less in Skyrim and that takes 200 years after the oblivion crisis, so 200 years in the fourth age ... I am sure this has com'up before but it's the devs who deside, trough I am still wondering what happend after the 'champion of cyrodill' and his best pal Martin Septim turining into a Dragon ....

Any clue's ?

The novel describes the Medes (Titus and Attrebus) as the new ruling family of the Empire. Titus conquered a lot of the former Empire, but is still fighting to reclaim the still lost portions.

And even the novel, which takes place only a few decades after the Oblivion crisis, is nearly 150 years before the events that will take place in the Skyrim game. So between the events in the novel and the game, a lot can happen. Including the creation of a new continental empire(s).

[Lew.p]

I am wondering I am really drawn in that sort of thing but the Medes are they book related since I havn't heard of them ... Yeah I know about that book havn't readed it trough ...

[Rachel Eloise Getoutofmyface]

To note, Titus Mede seemed to ONLY have Cyrodiil, uniting it from when it fractured into Colovia and Niben. Also to note, Titus is a Colovian.

After 200 years, I guess the empire regained many of the former lands, but I doubt they have Valenwood, Summerset Ilse (both due to being the Aldmeri Dominion), Black Marsh (very xenophobic in the book, and seem to be able to protect their borders very easily with how they mopped MD's forces during the Oblivion Crisis), and it seems that holding onto Skyrim is a problem.

[CHANONE]

Not sure Martin really transformed into Akatosh, or if Akatosh came down to the mortal plain. There have been avatars of the other Aedra, but Akatosh' appearance was because he had a contract with the empire through the Amulet of Kings.

I think MK said somewhere that Martin actually mantled Akatosh.

This is vaguely off topic, but I wonder if Martin's mantling Akatosh and sacrificing himself (ala a 'Lorkhanism') has something to do with the return of Alduin, or Akatosh's more 'Aurielic', Merrish elements. As in, with the human-friendly Akatosh, with possible Maruhkati connections, out of the way...

[Brandon Bernardi]

This is vaguely off topic, but I wonder if Martin's mantling Akatosh and sacrificing himself (ala a 'Lorkhanism') has something to do with the return of Alduin, or Akatosh's more 'Aurielic', Merrish elements. As in, with the human-friendly Akatosh, with possible Maruhkati connections, out of the way...

Not sure if I quite understand you, but heres a theory of mine.

After Martin mantled akatosh, it took certain powers away from akatosh. After a couple centuries of rest, that part without those powers became alduin.
And maybe after both parts are destroyed (I'm assuming the martin/akatosh part was destroyed at the end of oblivion), then the two can become whole again.

I'm sure someones already thought of it, but its 6am here, and I haven't been to bed yet. Just kind of popped into my head.

[Alycia Leann grace]

This is vaguely off topic, but I wonder if Martin's mantling Akatosh and sacrificing himself (ala a 'Lorkhanism') has something to do with the return of Alduin, or Akatosh's more 'Aurielic', Merrish elements. As in, with the human-friendly Akatosh, with possible Maruhkati connections, out of the way...

Auriel is closer to Akatosh in terms of friendliness to man than Alduin is to Akatosh. I don't quite understand what you're getting at.

The point of the religions though is that they're different interpretations on the same event. So it's not so much that Martin did something to the Time God (though his ending the Empire and their viewpoint inflicted upon the world certainly helped), more that the game is taking place in Skyrim.

[Marcin Tomkow]

This is vaguely off topic . . .

:P Don't worry (as far as I'm concerned), I started this thread for questions that are too off-topic for other threads, and as an attempt to keep threads w/ less than 4 replies at a minimum. It might make searching for answers harder (I have no idea, maybe), but since people don't like the search function, here we are

As far as Alduin being indirectly born from Martin's mantling of Akatosh, would we need to assume this happens every kalpa? Because I thought that the Alduin vs Akatosh thing existed in previous kalpas as well.


As another question, is Talos a god unique to the current kalpa? I've heard it said that Talos is eternal, because as Tiber became a god he exited time, thus existing before mortal Tiber was even born. So does this "outside of time" status of the gods only pertain to the current kalpa or all kalpas? I mean, will Talos still be around after the world is eaten and than reborn?