Questions on slavery : The Elder Scrolls Series Discussion

» Sat May 28, 2011 6:04 am

I am doing some writing at the moment about slavery in Morrowind and i have some questions:
1. Are most slaves caught in MW or caught in their native provinces?
2. If slaves are caught in their native provinces by what method of travel do they reach Morrowind
3. Do slaves exist all over the mainland as well?
4. If slaves are caught mainly in MW for what reason do most beasts leave their native lands and choose MW with its inherent risk of slavery ?
5. Are there any slave hunters in the original game? Do they have a base?
6. Is slavery conducted by others other than the cannon tong?

Thanks for the answers. If some of the above questions do not have clear answers in MW lore thats fine just let me know and i will choose an appropriate answer.

» Fri May 27, 2011 8:02 pm

1. I think they're mostly caught in their native provinces. (Argonians at least.)
2. By foot and boat. I think.
3. Yes, take Tear for example.
4. No idea.
5. Haven't seen any.
6. Yes, House Telvanni, House Dres and House Indoril(?).

Some of these questions may get better answers in the Lore forums.

» Fri May 27, 2011 6:42 pm

I am doing some writing at the moment about slavery in Morrowind and i have some questions:
1. Are most slaves caught in MW or caught in their native provinces?
2. If slaves are caught in their native provinces by what method of travel do they reach Morrowind
3. Do slaves exist all over the mainland as well?
4. If slaves are caught mainly in MW for what reason do most beasts leave their native lands and choose MW with its inherent risk of slavery ?
5. Are there any slave hunters in the original game? Do they have a base?
6. Is slavery conducted by others other than the cannon tong?

Thanks for the answers. If some of the above questions do not have clear answers in MW lore thats fine just let me know and i will choose an appropriate answer.

I'm by no means a loremaster but I'll do my best.

1. Most slaves are caught in raids of their native province. But usually they are caught on the edges of the province's borders so the slave hunters can get them and quickly get out.

2. I'm not sure about khajiit, most likely pirates or slave hunters sail arund to Elsweyr in boats and catch them but from this http://www.elderscrolls.com/codex/races_map.htm you can see that Black Marsh (argonian homeland) is just south of Morrowind. So Dres (a dunmeri house on the mainland) raiders sneak in the northern parts, catch slaves, and then run back to Morrowind.

3. Yes, they are even more popular on the mainland as House Dres and House Indoril believe in the old dunmer traditions like slavery and the Tribunal.

4. Well those caught in Morrowind are often free but slave hunters saw an easy catch and captured them. In Morrowind you are never truly free if you are an argonian or a khajiit whether you were born free and kidnapped, or born free and entered Morrowind free.

5. There are slave masters, but I don't think there are slave hunters. I may be wrong though.

6. Every dunmeri house in Morrowind conducts slavery, although Hlaalu use slavery least of them all.

» Fri May 27, 2011 11:26 pm

6. Every dunmeri house in Morrowind conducts slavery, although Hlaalu use slavery least of them all.

Though in the game, or on Vvardenfell, I'm pretty sure Redoran was the ones who used the least slaves.
With all the Hlaalu plantations in the south.

» Fri May 27, 2011 11:20 pm

I am doing some writing at the moment about slavery in Morrowind and i have some questions:
1. Are most slaves caught in MW or caught in their native provinces?
2. If slaves are caught in their native provinces by what method of travel do they reach Morrowind
3. Do slaves exist all over the mainland as well?
4. If slaves are caught mainly in MW for what reason do most beasts leave their native lands and choose MW with its inherent risk of slavery ?
5. Are there any slave hunters in the original game? Do they have a base?
6. Is slavery conducted by others other than the cannon tong?

Thanks for the answers. If some of the above questions do not have clear answers in MW lore thats fine just let me know and i will choose an appropriate answer.

I'll give it a try. Off the top of my head. I'm not looking any of this up. General answers of course, there is a exception to everything.

1) Native provinces
2) Boat
3) Do you mean all of the ES world? No. The Imperials forbid slavery. It's only allowed in MW as a consession to the rulers there.
4) N/A. They are caught elsewhere.
5) No
6) Yes

EDIT: check here for more info: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Slavery

» Sat May 28, 2011 8:26 am

There's a slave hunter in Suran, a Hlaalu town.

I'd say Hlaalu and Telvanni use the most slaves in Vvardenfell, though. The Cammona Tong boosting the average considerably.

» Fri May 27, 2011 11:09 pm

Slaves are mostly used in mines and plantations, and most mines belong to Hlaalu or Telvanni, while most plantations belong to Hlaalu, Indoril or Dres.

While Ilmeni Dren is an abolitionist, she's in a minority in her house. Hlaalu uses slavery gleefully.

When Helseth abolished slavery, you can bet it didn't change much the life of slaves. Between people ignoring the new law and people simply replacing a form of exploitation with another, there's only one thing you can be sure: life isn't all rose-tinted and golden now.

I'll quote myself (post made at TR):

Instead of buying a slave (an investment) and of losing money when that slave dies or flees; hire a worker who is paid just a bit less than what he'd need to repay his debts. Debts? Yeah, because he works all day long and cannot afford to lose one day's wage in order to go to the market, so everything he needs for his day-to-day life, starting with food, he has to buy from you. He also pays a rent for the slum you're allowing him to live in.

In short, everything proceeds exactly like slavery for an outside observator: the workers are penned in rough shacks, toil all day without a moment of free time, and have no real chance to ever free themselves. If they escape, the guards will be after them -- because they have to pay their debts.

The difference is that if one of them dies or successfully escapes, then this time you lose nothing, and a new one will arrive on his own to take his place -- this new one being a pauper that needs a job to afford food, and who doesn't know in which trap he's getting.

This is a system which works really well and has been used in every country throughout history. It's even more profitable (for the plantation/mine/factory owner) than slavery.

And this is a system that you could rally the Hlaalu and Dres behind.

The Indoril and Telvanni, not so much. Tribunal piety, which the Indoril are supposed to have, would be a bit adverse to the cynicism of this system. As for the Telvanni, they really see slaves as property and wouldn't like much this trickery. Beside, the mad wizards don't want the slave's workforce so much as their bodies for necromantic experiments anyway; and while everybody cheers when you kill or torture your own slaves for whatever reason you want; it is considered murder when you kill employees.

Fortunately, the Indoril are, post fall of the Tribunal, crumbling; and the Telvanni, to be honest, they don't care about the law either way so they'll just nod at the news and continue to do as they ever did; turning into ornadas whoever would try to stop them.

» Sat May 28, 2011 2:12 am

Maybe, but I don't see indentured servitude or sharecropping coming to rise enough to suffice as say it did in the US South. You can't do raids along the border to get indentured servants and since the former slaves of Morrowind actually have a place to go (unlike many in our world's history) it's unlikely that they'll stay and basically still be slaves just for a job's sake...

» Sat May 28, 2011 6:39 am

Maybe, but I don't see indentured servitude or sharecropping coming to rise enough to suffice as say it did in the US South. You can't do raids along the border to get indentured servants and since the former slaves of Morrowind actually have a place to go (unlike many in our world's history) it's unlikely that they'll stay and basically still be slaves just for a job's sake...

Of course you can still do raids along the border. You just can't do i officially. Smugglers allready seemed to handle a lot of slave trading in Vvardenfell, and after the "abolition", they're just gonna get a bigger market.

» Sat May 28, 2011 9:53 am

When Helseth abolished slavery, you can bet it didn't change much the life of slaves. Between people ignoring the new law and people simply replacing a form of exploitation with another, there's only one thing you can be sure: life isn't all rose-tinted and golden now.

It doesn't mean it's as bad as it was before. And not that many people in Morrowind are in debt. And given the resources in Morrowind, it wouldn't be hard to find work in a mine (nice thing about an Egg Mine is that Kwama Workers do all the digging and Kwama Warriors do all the guarding, and while Ebony and Glass mining are probably more dangerous and hard, they are said to pay well).

» Sat May 28, 2011 1:00 am

Of course you can still do raids along the border. You just can't do i officially. Smugglers allready seemed to handle a lot of slave trading in Vvardenfell, and after the "abolition", they're just gonna get a bigger market.

"Seemed to handle"??? Of course they 'seemed to handle a lot slave trading', it was legal, in which case they weren't 'smugglers' but just 'traders'... how does their market grow?

» Sat May 28, 2011 10:41 am

"Seemed to handle"??? Of course they 'seemed to handle a lot slave trading', it was legal, in which case they weren't 'smugglers' but just 'traders'... how does their market grow?

Smuggling, illegal slave raiding, and catching criminals to make into slaves.

» Fri May 27, 2011 6:41 pm

It doesn't mean it's as bad as it was before. And not that many people in Morrowind are in debt. And given the resources in Morrowind, it wouldn't be hard to find work in a mine (nice thing about an Egg Mine is that Kwama Workers do all the digging and Kwama Warriors do all the guarding, and while Ebony and Glass mining are probably more dangerous and hard, they are said to pay well).

In the Swedish "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statare" (It's a stub, I know, but it has a link to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truck_system which seems to be roughly the same thing, I only took a quick look) the workers were still "free", at least on paper. But in reality, they were nothing else than slaves. They could only change their work place during one week, once a year, they were hardly payed anything (and definitly not in money), and mostly, they were given no other acomodation than, basically, a roof over their head and four thin walls around them. Some were "kept" together in one large building. There is hardly any difference between this and slavery, and this went on in Sweden 'till the mid 20th century.

I find it very probable that some variation of such a system will be implemented in Morrowind. You just can't take away a nations working force like that. The nation would collapse if there were noone to do the hard work.
Besides, how would the slaves get back to their home lands? I doubt their former owners would pay them for the trip. They would become the lowest of classes, struggling to survive. Such people take what jobs, whatever the condition and circumstances are, that are offered to them. Like the "statare" did.

"Seemed to handle"??? Of course they 'seemed to handle a lot slave trading', it was legal, in which case they weren't 'smugglers' but just 'traders'... how does their market grow?

If their deelings were official, there would be no need to hide them in their caves, no need to "smuggle" them in to begin with. There is a black market for everything, including slaves.
And their market grows because there is only the black market left, and people will have to go to them if they want any slaves at all.

» Sat May 28, 2011 12:24 am

This is Morrowind. Things are still going to be considerably harsh.

And now that the Emperor has popped his lid, and ain't calling freebies on all the ebony and glass, the Great Houses may see opportunity for increased indentured labour.

» Sat May 28, 2011 12:14 am

I'm not so sure that slavery or serfdom has continued in Morrowind. The PGE 3rd says:

"One of Helseth's first edicts as King seemed particularly designed to dismantle the traditional power structures of the Dunmer. In accordance with the longstanding wishes of the Empire, he outlawed slavery throughout Morrowind. The reaction to this was bloody, as could be predicted, though the alliances formed were far from expected. . . .
The Great Houses themselves, long stagnant, are adjusting to the new powers in the land. Some, like Dres and Hlaalu, appear to be on the rise, embracing the new traditions while welcoming the return of the old. Others, like Indoril and Redoran, seem to be waning, unable to change with the times."

I think it's more possible that Morrowind after the Oblivion Crisis is unsettled, with most of the slaves leaving the province as soon as abolition was official; though there was probably a civil war at the same time. I guess a number of the ex-slaves might stay if they had been born in Morrowind, but I'm not sure they would settle for being powerless serfs.

» Sat May 28, 2011 8:14 am

Leaving where? The only refugees in Cheydinhal were Dunmer (not a gameplay excuse) so they must have gone to Black Marsh to die. Ex-slaves don't get to choose whether they 'settle' for anything. The Dunmer feed them.

» Fri May 27, 2011 8:48 pm

I'm not so sure that slavery or serfdom has continued in Morrowind. The PGE 3rd says:

"One of Helseth's first edicts as King seemed particularly designed to dismantle the traditional power structures of the Dunmer. In accordance with the longstanding wishes of the Empire, he outlawed slavery throughout Morrowind. The reaction to this was bloody, as could be predicted, though the alliances formed were far from expected. . . .
The Great Houses themselves, long stagnant, are adjusting to the new powers in the land. Some, like Dres and Hlaalu, appear to be on the rise, embracing the new traditions while welcoming the return of the old. Others, like Indoril and Redoran, seem to be waning, unable to change with the times."
I think it's more possible that Morrowind after the Oblivion Crisis is unsettled, with most of the slaves leaving the province as soon as abolition was official; though there was probably a civil war at the same time. I guess a number of the ex-slaves might stay if they had been born in Morrowind, but I'm not sure they would settle for being powerless serfs.

How would they be able to leave? Morrowind's one hell of a place two wander around in. They have no money, they can't buy food or shelter. They are left out to the rauaging ash-storms and all of Morrowinds beasts and creatures. If anything, those slaves would band together and start a new career in banditry, or they would stay as (underpayed) workers.
With Hlaalu and Dres at the wheel, I don't think capitalism is suddenly going to step back for altruism.

Edit: I forgot to say this - there is no choice for poor people. There isn't in our time, it wasn't back in medieval days, and it isn't in TES either.

» Fri May 27, 2011 8:39 pm

Maybe, but I don't see indentured servitude or sharecropping coming to rise enough to suffice as say it did in the US South. You can't do raids along the border to get indentured servants and since the former slaves of Morrowind actually have a place to go (unlike many in our world's history) it's unlikely that they'll stay and basically still be slaves just for a job's sake...

Which is why the Native Americans weren't suited to be slaves. They knew the land and could be easily rescued/have their escape enacted. A degree of isolation needs to be present, physical and mental.

Of course you can still do raids along the border. You just can't do i officially. Smugglers allready seemed to handle a lot of slave trading in Vvardenfell, and after the "abolition", they're just gonna get a bigger market.

And the business of moving people always requires a discrete element about it, especially considering the indeterminate actions of the abolitionist movement from within Morrowind. They make their living by shuffling these lives around and can't allow persons of alternate ideals to mess with profits.

"Seemed to handle"??? Of course they 'seemed to handle a lot slave trading', it was legal, in which case they weren't 'smugglers' but just 'traders'... how does their market grow?

It's the slave getting that becomes problematic, and besides, there's much more to the world than just the authorities to worry about. Then again, that's probably me impressing something upon the system in MW that isn't there. The slavery as presented was more of a tack-on affair and clearly more a matter of semantics than mechanics in terms of the societies of Tamriel.

How would they be able to leave? Morrowind's one hell of a place two wander around in. They have no money, they can't buy food or shelter. They are left out to the rauaging ash-storms and all of Morrowinds beasts and creatures. If anything, those slaves would band together and start a new career in banditry, or they would stay as (underpayed) workers.
With Hlaalu and Dres at the wheel, I don't think capitalism is suddenly going to step back for altruism.

Edit: I forgot to say this - there is no choice for poor people. There isn't in our time, it wasn't back in medieval days, and it isn't in TES either.

In Vvardenfell it is a hell of a place, the mainland Morrowind isn't so harsh. It makes a bit more sense to have placed the majority of the slavery on the island, but this whole idea of slavery as an issue they are dealing with is almost comical in the setting and the situation of the day. Especially considering the economic situation, what is this non-sense the politicians are bringing up?

» Fri May 27, 2011 8:52 pm

I think the ex-slaves could walk out of Morrowind, even if it meant stealing boats when they hit the coast (for the Vvardenfell slaves, of course). We've seen in our own world that many refugees and slaves will pay any price to escape captivity. For example, the slaves in our own nation that fled to the North and Canada despite the slavecatchers and (in many cases) unsympathetic Northerners. Or the "Lost Boys" of Sudan, who walked across several African nations while fleeing war, despite losing many of their number to bandits, wild animals, and the elements.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Boys_of_Sudan

Something else that occurred to me today about Morrowind after the Oblivion Crisis: if we assume the Crisis caused a massive loss of life throughout Tamriel, maybe the situation is similar to Europe after the Black Death; labor would become more valuable if anything. It might be harder to force the ex-slaves into sharecropper status when the ex-slaveholders are themselves struggling to survive.

» Fri May 27, 2011 6:51 pm

I don't think an ex-slave would be able to walk past Tear without some harassment. Not without Dunmeri KKK wannabes riding up on guars and paralyzing him...

» Fri May 27, 2011 8:18 pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Boys_of_Sudan

The group of refugees that the book deals with died in droves, after drinking urine and being turned away at national borders. And that makes the case against your argument quite admirably.

» Fri May 27, 2011 10:38 pm

In the Swedish "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statare" (It's a stub, I know, but it has a link to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truck_system which seems to be roughly the same thing, I only took a quick look) the workers were still "free", at least on paper. But in reality, they were nothing else than slaves. They could only change their work place during one week, once a year, they were hardly payed anything (and definitly not in money), and mostly, they were given no other acomodation than, basically, a roof over their head and four thin walls around them. Some were "kept" together in one large building. There is hardly any difference between this and slavery, and this went on in Sweden 'till the mid 20th century.

I find it very probable that some variation of such a system will be implemented in Morrowind. You just can't take away a nations working force like that. The nation would collapse if there were noone to do the hard work.

But there are people who do the hard work. There are plenty of workers in Morrowind, even with slavery. Most of the mining was done by free workers, not by slaves. There was no such problem with the free laborers in Morrowind while slavery was legal, and I doubt they'll be able to implement it afterwards, or else they'll run into a lot of problems.

Besides, how would the slaves get back to their home lands? I doubt their former owners would pay them for the trip. They would become the lowest of classes, struggling to survive. Such people take what jobs, whatever the condition and circumstances are, that are offered to them. Like the "statare" did.

Given their partially aquatic nature, stronger argonians could probably swim back to the Black Marsh (provided they can fend off the slaughterfish for the whole trip). And if someone is strong enough, they can simply live off of rats, Nix-Hounds, and Mudcrabs. As for Khajiit, they got no problem stealing what they need.

» Sat May 28, 2011 7:35 am

Given their partially aquatic nature, stronger argonians could probably swim back to the Black Marsh (provided they can fend off the slaughterfish for the whole trip). And if someone is strong enough, they can simply live off of rats, Nix-Hounds, and Mudcrabs. As for Khajiit, they got no problem stealing what they need.

That's some pretty good tongue-in-cheek.

:P

» Sat May 28, 2011 3:51 am

It doesn't take Drain Magicka 3pts bracers to make slaves, crim.

» Sat May 28, 2011 9:52 am

It doesn't take Drain Magicka 3pts bracers to make slaves, crim.

Those bracers are such a waste of resources. Everyone knows that 'Numantia on Self' only costs 2 magicka.