All things considered about the Dark Brotherhood, it's not the organization that's evil, but as assassins, they were merely tools. Do you blame the gun for a murder? Or blame the person wielding the gun? As they say, Sh*t rolls downhill.

There's no "Black and white". While the Dark Brotherhood is often painted as antithesis to good, especially in Morrowind, where you don't get to explore them as more than cannon fodder, in Oblivion, you learn that many of the people are sympathetic characters with little options elsewhere. In one of the few moments that Oblivion shines in terms of character depth, writing and atmosphere, the early Dark Brotherhood quests, leading up to the eventual right of purity, through slaughtering your fellow guildmates gets you invested in these individuals, more so than any other guild in the game. I still have a hard time going through with the killings. Other guilds have their one or two interesting characters (The Champion of the Fighter's guild for example) but no other actually made you care about the faction as a whole, the same way. Really, not even Morrowind managed to inject that into all their guilds, as well as those first few Dark Brotherhood missions.

All things considered about the Dark Brotherhood, it's not the organization that's evil, but as assassins, they were merely tools. Do you blame the gun for a murder? Or blame the person wielding the gun? As they say, Sh*t rolls downhill.

The Thieve's guild in Oblivion was good, but a little too Cause-oriented for my tastes. As good as the quests were, it always felt like nothing more than an Audition to become the thief king, rather than just joining the guild, and slowly coming to the attention of the higher-ups. This just stems back from the overall issue with pacing Oblivion had, and this isn't a discussion for that. More on topic, the Cause-oriented thieve's guild are no less heroes than the fighter's or mage's guilds. Perhaps even more so, as killing people is discouraged through the "Blood price".

Instead of opposing guilds (Fighter's V. Blackwood. Mage's V. Necromancers) to be "Good and evil", I'd rather see the internal dynamics of guild struggles resolved "Internally". As they were in Morrowind. You had many paths of advancement, and many paths towards the conclusion. In the Fighter's guild, you could ally yourself with Percius Mercius, and kill all of the pro Cammona Tong stewards. Or, you could instigate the conclusion a different way, by going the ambitious brown-noser, and performing all the Less-than-reputable extortion, bounty and manipulatory quests offered by Sjoring's champion, or Sjoring himself.

And what horrible crime did Perennia Draconis commit? Or Baenlin? Or Adamus Phillida?

The DB didn't kill Rufio because he was a rapist. They killed him because they got paid to. There is nothing morally ambiguous about the dark brotherhood. They kill for profit and for fun. They are less Dexter Morgan and more Anton Chigurh.

"What crime?" Crime has nothing to do with it. The Imperial law has nothing to do with it. Laws aren't always right.

I'd say there's nothing that isn't morally ambiguous about the Dark Brotherhood. They don't just go out and kill, they adhere to the requests of others in exchange for money and valuables.

In a way, they're a government of the people. They make no judgments. If you want someone dead because he sixually assaulted and murdered someone close to you, they'll fulfill your wish. If you want someone dead because he gave you a dirty look, they'll fulfill that wish too.

Whether the Dark Brotherhood murders or not is in the hands of the people.

If no one prayed to the Night Mother, there would be no Dark Brotherhood. There's no good or evil in the Dark Brotherhood, there's just the requests of the people of Tamriel.

And Adamus Phillida got murdered because he was a threat to the Dark Brotherhood. Does the player not kill Mankar Camoran because he is a threat to Tamriel? Same thing.

They make no judgments. If you want someone dead because he sixually assaulted and murdered someone close to you, they'll fulfill your wish. If you want someone dead because he gave you a dirty look, they'll fulfill that wish too. Whether the Dark Brotherhood murders or not is in the hands of the people. If no one prayed to the Night Mother, there would be no Dark Brotherhood. There's no good or evil in the Dark Brotherhood, there's just the requests of the people of Tamriel.

:violin:


You people have serious morality issues....this is just a game.

Of course it's just a game. That doesn't mean all posts about it must be frivolous. I think it speaks to the strength of the ES series that it provokes serious discussion from time to time.

Okay, let me phrase it another way. What wrong did Perennia Draconis commit to warrant her murder?

You believe that Rufio deserves to be murdered for killing an innocent woman, but when the player not only murders an innocent woman, but murders her whole family, you see that as morally ambiguous?

If someone had paid Rufio to sixually assault and murder a woman, would his actions be morally ambiguous?

You seem to be arguing from a sort of nihilistic Kantian ethical position, judging the morality of the act by the intent, and then shifting the intent to the person who hired the murderer, rather than the murderer himself. But the murderer himself is not without intent. He intends to kill. He intends to kill for profit, which is one of the oldest and most common motives for murder. How is murdering someone for personal gain in any way morally ambiguous?

The Dark Brotherhood is part of the people. They could choose not to act. They could choose not to murder someone who has done nothing to deserve it. They possess the capacity to choose... free will. Hence, they are morally accountable for their actions. Just because someone else paints the target, that doesn't erase the assassin's choice to pull the trigger.

A person is not a bullet. They choose their path.

There are people in this world who make a living by bringing children and women from poor countries and forcing them into prostitution in industrialized countries. If no one paid these people for the use of their slaves, there would be no six trafficking. Does this mean there is no good or evil in six trafficking?

I understand you are a fan of the DB. A lot of people are. I also understand that the "Don't blame the weapon, blame the person wielding it" rationale is a nice way to RP an assassin, but when players actually start to believe it, something is wrong. The idea that the DB are morally ambiguous just does not hold together.

I understand that gives the player motive, but it is not a justification. Mankar Camoran was trying to commit genocide. Adamus Phillida was attempting to stop a group of serial killers from continuing their crime spree. They are not the same.

I never said the members of the Dark Brotherhood have no responsibility for their actions, because I was not talking about the individual members of the Dark Brotherhood. I was talking about the ideals of the Dark Brotherhood and the group itself.

You can call one good and one evil, and that's fine, and I'm sure most would agree, but it's not the only viewpoint, unless you believe in some objective morality.

Okay. I can agree that the members of the Dark Brotherhood do not believe themselves to be evil. They are wrong, but they believe it nonetheless. That is true of pretty much any group of mass murderers, from al Qaeda to the Nazi Party of 1930s Germany. Evil people who believe themselves to be good are responsible for most of the human race's worst atrocities.

I believe that certain moral propositions are objectively inferior to other moral propositions as measured by their consequences for society. The proposition that it's okay to murder people for money is objectively inferior to the proposition that it is wrong to do so, because the former is incredibly destructive to society. Would you like to live in a society where it was considered acceptable for someone who didn't like you to hire someone to murder you, and where they could do so without consequence?

I agree with both of those things. :thumbsup:

And I'll add that I always try to keep an open mind and to consider the opposition, and that just because the bulk of society believes something doesn't mean it's right.

True, we should never believe that social norms are automatically right. The majority once believed slavery was right. And that's the problem with absolute morality, it leaves no room for improvement.

Incidentally, while I might find the DB morally problematic, they remain my favorite faction in Oblivion. It can be enlightening to RP a character with views very different from my own. My characters always believe they are right, no matter how atrocious their behavior.

id like to see guilds actively oppose each other and have some quests that reflect that. if you joined the thieves guild you might have to steal something from the mages guild and if your a member of the mages guild you might have to guard it or recover it from a thief.