I found it terribly disappointing in Oblivion that I couldn't hunt down the Grey Fox and kill him. I was even more disappointed when I discovered the Dark Brotherhood entrance and couldn't embark on a quest to gain access and destroy all its members as a good guy. Such quests' cognates should be included in Skyrim, to destroy any organized crime factions that may exist in Skyrim. Clearly then, if the player chose to pursue such a quest, the organized crime quests would then be unavailable for the rest of the that game. (Side issue: The only quest that probably should be protected from the player screwing it up is the Main Quest. What do you think?)

Anyway, such a quest would almost be like a second major storyline (in addition to saving the world from Alduin) for good characters, because it would be so much more global in effect and purpose than ANY other side quests that existed in Oblivion or that we've heard about in the forthcoming game. It'd be awesome to take part in a huge quest, that, in addition to the main quest rooted in the supernatural cataclysmic events, was rooted in the natural society.

What do you think?

[EDIT] Apparently I didn't know anything about the Gray Fox -- from some of your comments -- I never did the Thieves' Guild questline, so I just assumed he was a Thief, period. Anyway, I'm not for killing Robin Hood, or anyone like him.

That would be interesting. Maybey have them both try to stop you?

No. I don't want to see TES games becoming catered to people who want to play "good" or "evil" characters. I would consider your "good" character to be quite malevolent if he/she hunted down the Gray Fox and killed him. The Gray Fox was one of the most benevolent men in the game, if you ask me. It's like killing Robin Hood, except even worse.

The Dark Brotherhood certainly wasn't filled with saints, but oh well. Many of them simply acted outside the law. For example, the player kills Rufio. How vicious, right? Killing an innocent old man? But oh, wait, he sixually assaulted and murdered a woman, and the person who called for his assassination was the husband or father (it's never made clear his relation to the woman) of the victim. Many of the assassinations are in that same light, and many many DB members claim that the DB is their only family and all they have.

Your "good" character is more malevolent and ruthless than most villains.

I'd like to see this.

I'm not for killing the Gray Fox though.

That'd be awesome! It'd probably become larger than the main quest though... haha.

I could've done with a choice like "Sure... yeah... whatever." I think it's a fine idea - I don't know if I'd ever do it, but sure. More quest options and more potential factional disputes are both good things as far as I'm concerned, even if they're not things that I might be interested in doing. And who knows? Sooner or later, I might well play a character who would want to do just that.

Lol, for those of you who picked "Certainly not! I'd join the DB in real life if I could!", the poll is asking whether or not you should be able to, not whether or not you personally want to.

That's like asking for alternate endings for every quest. If this was possible, they'd certainly have to make an option to botch Fighter's Guild missions and so on.

Thanks for your input!

Regardless of any circumstances that justify the killing of a person, the DB is an underground association operating outside the law in the dark of society, with the intent of ending lives (good or bad) for money. Whereas a quest against it would be operating in the law for no monetary benefit, to end the organization of anarchists, vigilantes, creepos, or whatever else you want to call them. Any justice should be wrought by entities sanctioned and legitimized by the ruling government (Emperor or King, unless of course that guy is popularly considered corrupt, in which case a revolution should be in the making before other things). Plus, just the entrance to the DB headquarters in Cheydinhal was enough to make me want the type of quest I'm suggesting, with its creepy music and sickly portrait of child-killing.

Anyway, a quest focusing on an interaction between factions (or in this case, between faction and the kingdom) would make the world feel more alive, and the factions more ingrained into society.

I agree with the points made by everyone here that answers a No to the poll. Too much work, and it's not really the :tes: style.

I wouldn't mind something like this. Maybe there could be a system where if your fame were to become too high, someone could hire the Dark Brotherhood to assassinate you, and that's where the questline begins. Plus, I would love to join the guards and hunt down theives/assassins.

I think this is a great idea, but to play devils advocate, would you allow the thieves guild and DB to bring down the Mage and Fighters guilds? I think there should be some tension between the factions. I also think there should be sabotage type quests against one another and perhaps some high level assassinations or arrests/frame jobs....however, to do away with an entire guild is a bit too far....IMHO.

I would like to see the politics btw guilds to go back towards DF or MW and not the way it was in Oblivion.

Maybe. Doubt I'll do it since those are my two favorites.

No to thieve's guild, but I think OB missed an opportunity. You could kill Lucien when he asked you to join the DB, would have been nice if he had a key to the sanctuary, and you could finish the lot off. You do it anyway if you join, so where's the harm?

voted yes, but your poll is pretty strangely worded.

i'm in favor of the PC being able to complete destroy any faction and making them dead.

For example, if two factions are in conflict (whether one is "good" or both are "bad"/morally ambiguous doesn't matter), such as the College of Whispers and the Necromancers. I'd love to see some deep questlines that lead to you destroying the other faction and having to make tough choices about which faction to join.

So, perhaps you get a cool new Necromancy Spell or artifact as a reward for burning down the College of Whispers and strewing their entrails hither and thither, but you lose out on whatever the College of Whispers would have given you if you had sided with them and helped them to destroy the Necromancers.

I had no idea of that story behind Rufio, although i played through that quest line several times. where did you find that info? Makes me feel a bit better about the whole thing..

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Rufio.

The Dark Brotherhood quest line in Oblivion really made my character 'come alive' so to speak. I really felt involved and it was probably the best experience in Oblivion I had. Hoping I can join them once more in Skyrim.

I would be in favor of something like that then. The Imperial Legion (or whatever is appropriate for Skyrim) vs. The Dark Brotherhood would be an appropriate quest or series of quests. The player going solo against the Dark Brotherhood and presented in-game with a misguided sense of "righteousness," I'm not in favor of.

I can consider my character good/evil, other in-game NPCs can consider my character good/evil, just so long as the game does not make any assumptions about my character, and does not present the world in such black-and-white terms.

It's the idea that you can assassinate someone on money alone that makes it evil, but when you go more in-depth, the morality of the situation becomes blurred. I'm sure a player that was RPing a good character would only see them as murderers. Would have really made decisions for the player similar to some decisions made in Dragon Age: Origins, somewhat gray, or perhaps resulting in a not-so-valiant feeling that comes with finding out that their motives aren't so evil. Same would apply to the Thieve's Guild. Would you be prepared to end a "Robin Hood" style person to somewhat damage the Thieve's Guild? Are you certain your actions would even do permanent damage to the Thieve's Guild and further, the robberies going on in the world in general?

However, if you don't try, it just grows rampant. And this is just a game afterall, not like the system is dynamic (AFAIK) where you have burgularies going on 24/7 as well as assassinations. Everything is stagnant, and if the player could kill all their members, then so be it to attempt to cripple them and gain some reward for it. I imagine in Skyrim, however, that the warring Rebels and Imperialists would be more concerned about their war than some petty thievery and some old man's life. However, FO3 did have a bounty system, and Skyrim could have something similar. Perhaps even rewards given based on the remaining percentage of characters in either the Thieves/DB Guild (or both). We'll have to see how it all plays out when information on factions are revealed.

If the thieves are like those in Oblivion I probably would leave them alone, save to take back certain prized possessions from time to time for people who sought my aid, though I agree you should be able to turn them in. As to the dark brotherhood YES!!!!! I so wanted to destroy their organization, or at least severely handicapp it, but no dice. I had to settle for infiltrating, (which required killing some civillians, unfortunately), then killing as many of its members as I could manage, ending with Ungolim, and leaving the organiization crippled and leaderless.

But in many ways TES is largely focused on allowing individuals to play their characters as they see fit. This means, ideally, everything from pacifist holy person, to guardian of the weak, to murderous aspiring tyrant and most points inbetween. That people might want to take down the DarkBrotherhood but not officially join the Legion is highly probable. To be honest, I had an urge to handicap both the Brotherhood, which I found vile, AND the Legion, whose members I found unsufferably sanctimoious in many instances. Personally, for quests that are potentially for the greater good of the region, I think it would be good to have freelance options AND faction options for dealing with menaces like The Worm Acolytes and The Dark Brotherhood. I.E. You can join the mages guild/legion and have it as part of their main quest, along with other advancement options, or you can follow a different quest path with the same ultimate initial goal of hamstringing these nefarious agencies, but as an aide to rather than member of their opposite numbers.

As to Rufio. . . he may have been a murderer, but there is no code or precondition with the Dark Brotherhood that requires all their marks to be murderers. With the right offering of gold and invocation, you could hire them to kill some former friend who didn't pay you back your loan of 50 septims, or some lecher employer who groped your buttocks one time too many, or some neighbour who keeps putting the refuse from their yard into yours or who you've caught pilfering cabbages and lettuce from your garden. The amorality of the organazation is so severe and chaotic that it really does trend towards the worst kind of immorality. That they occassionally and inevitably kill some people who really did have it coming does not wash away the veritable river of essentially innocent blood that they have spilled and will keep spilling if left unchecked.

Ah.... that last paragraph in particular was beautifully written - well done.

I agree with pretty much everything you said there, with only one proviso from what Velorien has written - the morality in the game should be that of the player and/or the factions the player joins - not one imposed by the game overall (and I don't think or mean to imply that you disagree with that point - I'm just following a path your post set me on). I'm not much impressed by moral relativism as a general rule, but certainly within the limited confines of a game, and particularly with the understanding that, as you note, people are going to want to play any of a range of characters, morality should be treated relatively. If your character joins a faction that considers another faction evil and shares that view with them, or even if s/he just holds that view and decides to freelance, that should be possible in the game. The more things of that nature, the better, as far as I'm concerned. And to nod toward the distinction that Velorien made, if there are others who consider your character's actions to be the evil ones - great. That just adds more spice. Granted that that sort of complexity would be difficult to pull off in a game, I think it's definitely something toward which to aspire.

And as a bit of a side note on moral relativism, I've always been sort of amused by the people who jump into the DB line in Oblivion, get to the Purification, then are suddenly repulsed and saddened by it. To me, that's the real test of an assassin, and those who have a problem with it haven't actually come to terms with the amorality of the organization. And I have no doubt that that particular turn of events was included in the game specifically to make that point.

why did most people vote for "Definitely! I want to go on a righteous crusade and cleanse Skyrim of all evil-doers!"? where are my fellow assassin brothers who kill for the glory of sithis? :confused:

thieves guild is NOT evil