Quit frothing at the mouth and think. : V - Skyrim

» Tue May 03, 2011 3:48 am

The old attribute system was perfect to make every single race in the game perfectly identical once you capped the attributes at 100.

lol, not even close man. every level up you get 1/10th endurence permenant health boost. so if you improve endurance as much as you can early on your character will have way more health than some one who focused on intellegence and willpower. if you understood how the attributes work you would not have posted that blatant falasy.

» Tue May 03, 2011 3:03 am

The basic fundamental idea is not bad but a few flaws do arise with it, and these topics weren't covered in the article.

Really the only flaw this introduces is that at the beginning of the game, every character you make will be completely identical. It's a far cry from back in the days of daggerfall where you had complete and utter freedom in making a character exactly how you want them. What disappoints me is that I really enjoyed Daggerfall's character creation, and progressively the character creation has gotten smaller and smaller as each TES title goes by and I can never make the type of character I want. At first I though "no more birth-signs" was a blessing, but it seems there is really nothing to do in character creation.

Wow you know this how? You honestly believe that every race will start out wit hteh exact same skill levels? You don't beleive you will have Racial abilities? You don't believe you will have a chance to choose a perk at character creation? i hardly think character will be anything like the 'exact" same.

While many people may want to "play into" their characters, I'm still disappointed that I'm being forced to play in such a way, where I actually prefer to build a character to my exact specifications from the start. This sin;t some sort of dealbreaker for me, but it has made much skeptisism and diappoitnment for me, as I do like to "build" characters from the start, as apposed to doing it through the game.

I've always been partial to creating and playing 10+ drastically different characters toe experience the game from every possible spectrum, but this will not be very possible with skyrim; at least not until I reach level 5 or so. The first playthrough of skyrim with this new system will no doubt be amazing, but if I want to create another character that is geared to a completely different approach, it won't work. I'll be forced to drudge through the game, grinding away at my skills so I can play differently later on, as apposed to being able to build a character a specific way from the start, and play the game that way from the very beginning as if my character has always been that way.

In Daggerfall you can drop into the world as "Fangor, the Talented Gruff Claymore weilding Nord" or drop into it as "Raylin the Silver-Tongued Breton Mage-Scholar" but in Skyrim with every character I make, I'll be dropping into the game as "Generic Template #1, the bland and useless peon who must play into his character over the span of two days"

I think you first premiss of this post is utterly wrong the the rest doesn't follow.

» Mon May 02, 2011 9:12 pm

The problem with that it doesn't make an awful lot of sense. Why would a Breton ever be stronger than an Orc?? Bretons grow up using magic and are typically not as heavy built as other humans, let alone Orcs. Sure, you might be able to find a few Bretons that are unnaturally strong, and indeed are stronger than some Orcs, but you'll never find the strongest Breton to be stronger than the strongest Orc; it just doesn't make any sense, lore wise.

Is an Orc stronger than a Breton by genetics or is that cultural? Is your average random Orc of no skill stronger than a battle hardened Breton warrior with years of training behind him?

Is it REQUIRED to be strong to do more damage with that weapon? Cannot you use your skill and experience in handling this weapon to basically, do more damage with it than a novice Nord of huge strength at birth?

Str as an attribute is bad because it's not really that good of an attribute to determine damage done really

Better put that under the sword skill.

» Mon May 02, 2011 8:08 pm

if less is more why don't we just reduce the whole stats system into two perks called strong/weak and we only get to wear one type of armor.

less = more does not apply to content.

» Tue May 03, 2011 1:25 am

lol, not even close man. every level up you get 1/10th endurence permenant health boost. so if you improve endurance as much as you can early on your character will have way more health than some one who focused on intellegence and willpower. if you understood how the attributes work you would not have posted that blatant falasy.

Yeah but if you increase your endurance for the first 15 levels, then stop, and focus on something else, you suddenly have more health than someone that focused on endurance for the last 15 levels. Yeah, that sounds like a system worth keeping /sarcasm.

» Tue May 03, 2011 6:16 am

if less is more why don't we just reduce the whole stats system into two perks called strong/weak and we only get to wear one type of armor.

They cut a handful of attributes and added 200+ perks, dual wielding and dragon shouts on top of the melee/magic system. Oh no what have they done to us?!

» Mon May 02, 2011 7:36 pm

While I do understand your point, and really wouldn't be as sad as some others if attributes were to be removed, your methodology forgets to explain one thing to a certain number of people.

What about the people, like myself, who want to break those archetypes and be better than the other races? What if we want a Dark Elf that is faster than a Khajiit, or a Breton that is stronger than an Orc. I don't know about you, but I don't like being limited to what the game tells me I am, I want to be what I want to be. If that vision of my character is outside of my archetype, then so be it. Besides, I love the feeling of having a character that is different and unique in an Elder Scrolls game.

The current system you're explaining, or even that Bethesda may be implementing, sounds a lot more restrictive towards those ideals than the former system of attributes. Now, if the new system were to allow the same freedoms as the old system, plus maybe even some more, then I wouldn't be as worried.

Nevertheless though, I'll still be buying the game compared to some others who seem to be boycotting it due to the possible lack of attributes.

Yeah, and you are free to do that as you like in Skyrim as well. Just like in the previous four games, though, your Nord will never have nearly as much Magicka as an Altmer would. It's the same damn principle.

» Mon May 02, 2011 7:58 pm

I think an old proverb could not be a better fit in this situation:

Less is more.

not In TES.

» Tue May 03, 2011 8:56 am

Is an Orc stronger than a Breton by genetics or is that cultural? Is your average random Orc of no skill stronger than a battle hardened Breton warrior with years of training behind him?

Is it REQUIRED to be strong to do more damage with that weapon? Cannot you use your skill and experience in handling this weapon to basically, do more damage with it than a novice Nord of huge strength at birth?

Str as an attribute is bad because it's not really that good of an attribute to determine damage done really

Better put that under the sword skill.

or we could have a blend of strength and skill so that an orc and a breton could be on equel footing when one is naturally strong while the other is very skilled. we can't character's designed purely by only strength or Skill.

» Tue May 03, 2011 11:03 am

Is an Orc stronger than a Breton by genetics or is that cultural? Is your average random Orc of no skill stronger than a battle hardened Breton warrior with years of training behind him?

Is it REQUIRED to be strong to do more damage with that weapon? Cannot you use your skill and experience in handling this weapon to basically, do more damage with it than a novice Nord of huge strength at birth?

Str as an attribute is bad because it's not really that good of an attribute to determine damage done really

Better put that under the sword skill.

Dude, I agree with you

. I'm not sure how you got that I didn't from that post

» Tue May 03, 2011 3:54 am

if less is more why don't we just reduce the whole stats system into two perks called strong/weak and we only get to wear one type of armor.

less = more does not apply to content.

Obviously you don't understand the proverb.

» Mon May 02, 2011 9:21 pm

I think an old proverb could not be a better fit in this situation:

Less is more.

Well, that's the approach the Fable series took, and they just keep getting better amirite?

Sarcasm aside, I think less can be more and I don't think Bethesda is as inept as Lionhead. It makes me a tad nervous, but I'm sure they'll pull out something special. The perk system excites me. It will probably rock.

Also, Gregasaurus, your avatar makes me smile. :biggrin:

» Tue May 03, 2011 9:40 am

The basic fundamental idea is not bad but a few flaws do arise with it, and these topics weren't covered in the article.

Really the only flaw this introduces is that at the beginning of the game, every character you make will be completely identical. It's a far cry from back in the days of daggerfall where you had complete and utter freedom in making a character exactly how you want them. What disappoints me is that I really enjoyed Daggerfall's character creation, and progressively the character creation has gotten smaller and smaller as each TES title goes by and I can never make the type of character I want. At first I though "no more birth-signs" was a blessing, but it seems there is really nothing to do in character creation.

While many people may want to "play into" their characters, I'm still disappointed that I'm being forced to play in such a way, where I actually prefer to build a character to my exact specifications from the start. This sin;t some sort of dealbreaker for me, but it has made much skeptisism and diappoitnment for me, as I do like to "build" characters from the start, as apposed to doing it through the game.

I've always been partial to creating and playing 10+ drastically different characters toe experience the game from every possible spectrum, but this will not be very possible with skyrim; at least not until I reach level 5 or so. The first playthrough of skyrim with this new system will no doubt be amazing, but if I want to create another character that is geared to a completely different approach, it won't work. I'll be forced to drudge through the game, grinding away at my skills so I can play differently later on, as apposed to being able to build a character a specific way from the start, and play the game that way from the very beginning as if my character has always been that way.

In Daggerfall you can drop into the world as "Fangor, the Talented Gruff Claymore weilding Nord" or drop into it as "Raylin the Silver-Tongued Breton Mage-Scholar" but in Skyrim with every character I make, I'll be dropping into the game as "Generic Template #1, the bland and useless peon who must play into his character over the span of two days"

Agreed with a fiery passion. Infact, I'm having trouble writing a well-structured reply because you've touched up on all the points I was going to mention!

At the end of the day, it all comes down to 'If it ain't broke, don't fix it'. There was nothing wrong with the attributes system - Sure, some tweaks and modifications would have been more than welcome, but a complete replacement of the main governing game mechanic in the Elder Scrolls series seems like a bit of overkill, don't you think?

I really hope I'll somehow be pleasantly surprised with how Bethesda handles the perks system.

» Tue May 03, 2011 12:43 am

The problem with that it doesn't make an awful lot of sense. Why would a Breton ever be stronger than an Orc?? Bretons grow up using magic and are typically not as heavy built as other humans, let alone Orcs. Sure, you might be able to find a few Bretons that are unnaturally strong, and indeed are stronger than some Orcs, but you'll never find the strongest Breton to be stronger than the strongest Orc; it just doesn't make any sense, lore wise.

I tend to think of The Elder Scrolls from an almost real world perspective rather than a "must fit within the lore" perspective. As you know, in the real world, there are some unusual things. Some things can be greater than others when they aren't supposed to be. So why should the world of The Elder Scrolls be limited to what's it's lore says it must be? Why can't a Breton be stronger than an Orc if it wants to be? Sure, it may be unusual and outside of their terms of possibility, but so is a man in the real world being able to lift a Volkswagen Beetle and proceed to start balancing it on his head with no problem whatsoever.

My issue is, why should characters in The Elder Scrolls be limited to what the lore tells them they are when they have the opportunity and the chance to be something greater?

» Tue May 03, 2011 5:25 am

Beautifully said, OP.

I didn't read anybody else's comments, but if you disagree you're a(n) [insert your favorite insult].

» Tue May 03, 2011 12:19 am

They cut a handful of attributes and added 200+ perks, dual wielding and dragon shouts on top of the melee/magic system. Oh no what have they done to us?!

they could have kept the attributes and added 200+ perks... did I just blow your mind?

» Tue May 03, 2011 3:38 am

Is an Orc stronger than a Breton by genetics ...

I'd say that was a good bet.

Str as an attribute is bad because it's not really that good of an attribute to determine damage done really

Better put that under the sword skill.

Strength is supposed to define carry weight as well, and should affect a myriad of other aspects (not all evident in TES). If you are absurdly strong, then you should get some sort of intimidation bonus against the average NPC; (equal brutes and grand masters exempt).

» Tue May 03, 2011 8:37 am

or we could have a blend of strength and skill so that an orc and a breton could be on equel footing when one is naturally strong while the other is very skilled. we can't character's designed purely by only strength or Skill.

Because the "Sword Skill" itself is a blend of all that. Is that 60 Sword Breton better with a sword than that 50 Sword Nord? Yes. Is that Breton stronger than the Nord? Well probably not but people will notice that Strength is awfully hard to mesure anyway. Is that strength of arms, of legs, of hands, of left arm? Neck or fingers?

Dude, I agree with you

. I'm not sure how you got that I didn't from that post

I just wanted to add more to what you said

» Tue May 03, 2011 12:10 am

they could have kept the attributes and added 200+ perks... did I just blow your mind?

Nope. So don't act like they only subtract.

» Tue May 03, 2011 4:50 am

I'm talking about single characters, not multi.

Besides, I'd rather have the characters be equal at the end (due to long and rigorous training and leveling) and not restricted than equal at the beginning and restricted.

That's kind of the point of an RPG. Your character is different from another person's character your skills determine what you're good at doing. If when you get to level 50 every character is pretty much the same then it kind of defeats the purpose.

Is an Orc stronger than a Breton by genetics or is that cultural? Is your average random Orc of no skill stronger than a battle hardened Breton warrior with years of training behind him?

Is it REQUIRED to be strong to do more damage with that weapon? Cannot you use your skill and experience in handling this weapon to basically, do more damage with it than a novice Nord of huge strength at birth?

Str as an attribute is bad because it's not really that good of an attribute to determine damage done really

Better put that under the sword skill.

You're sort of missing the point, and you're also forgetting that your stats were ALWAYS determined by your race, meaning that, yes, a random Orsimer would most likely be stronger and dumber than a random Breton. No, not compared to a hardened warrior Breton who's spent years becoming a master of the axe, but we're not comparing the average person (a level 1 character) to a person of legendary skill (a level 50 character). That's apples to oranges.

No matter what, your skills will determine what your character can do, and your race will probably have a big effect on your character's potential abilities. Just as it did in Arena, Daggerfall, Morrowind, and Oblivion before it.

» Tue May 03, 2011 7:30 am

They've said that the races will be more distinct this time. Like I pointed out above, it will likely have a significant impact on your stats. And again, the perks are the main mechanic of your character's abilities. Your Breton mage and Nord barbarian will sure as hell be distinct from one another, and your backstory will be whatever you want it to be. Are you honestly telling me that because you don't check a box that says "mage" you have absolutely no intention of playing a mage?

To the first part about races, I will be more content if races are given significant bonuses.

And no, if I wanted to play a pure mage in Daggerfall, I'd pop into the Advantages and Disadvantages, I'd forbid them from using certain weapons and armor, and then I'd give them magic-related bonuses also I can help myself play in that manner. I'd also remove points from strength and endurance, and put them into intelligence and willpower for my custom class. If I want to play a pure warrior, I'd make them completely unable to cast spells, but give good bonuses to magical resistances and weapon expertise.

Frankly, I don't give a crap whether or not you like to play in such a way or not, but I do. Bethesda should be including both functionalities so people like me can play the way we want to, and people like you can play the way you want to; It's called an optional feature. Because the way I like to play involves a hefty and careful charter creation, and be forced to play in another manner is irritating.

» Tue May 03, 2011 1:25 am

not In TES.

If you think Daggerfall is the best TES game then okay, if not then yes, especially in TES.

Well, that's the approach the Fable series took ...

No, it isn't.

» Tue May 03, 2011 4:49 am

I'm sad to see attributes go. I'll remain open-minded to the possibility that Beth will make up for this in other areas or come up with new ideas that are as good/better than attributes. But I'm having trouble seeing how this will lead to more nuance in how I RP my character.

In every Beth game thus far, I've almost always played the Ranger/Stealth character (MW, OB, F3, F:NV)...relying on speed, stealth, acrobatics, long range weaponry and stealth-kill melee weapons to get into the right position unseen and kill my adversary before he/she/it even knows I'm there. Because of this, I'd always max out Speed, Acrobatics and Athletics (yes I know the last two aren't attributes but they are being modified nonetheless) right off the bat to get my character in a position to take on the world in Oblivion. Frankly, even though I sunk large amounts of time into F3, the fact that character speed was more or less locked annoyed me to no end and if there wasn't a fast-travel system, I'm not sure I would have been able to sink 100s of hours into the game for frustration's sake. I get annoyed with slow characters. In fact, I tend not to use fast-travel at all in OB and MW when my character's speed is maxed and boosted because I can get around so quickly.

Now I'm told that there is a "sprint" button and attributes are gone. I wonder...how customizable is my character's speed now? Will I be able to only get 25% faster? 50%? More? Obviously no one knows right now. But the point is, I'm the guy who boosts my Athletics and Acrobatics to 100+, as well as gets his speed up to the 130s to 150s level. On top of that, I"m the guy who creates a "sprint" spell that boosts it another 100 for 5-10 seconds depending on needs.

The point is, with everything I've heard so far, I'm cosiderably doubtful this new system will be nearly as cusotmizable as the ones used in MW/OB. Maybe I'm wrong...maybe Beth will have a system here that is so much better that all of these concerns are put to bed and I hail Skyrim as the greatest game ever. I hope this is the case.

But hopefully it doesn't seem that far-fetched that a person who likes the play the game the way I do would be concerned at these announcements. This system sounds far less nuanced and therefore is less able to accomodate a wider range of playstyles and character builds.

» Tue May 03, 2011 10:54 am

I tend to think of The Elder Scrolls from an almost real world perspective rather than a "must fit within the lore" perspective. As you know, in the real world, there are some unusual things. Some things can be greater than others when they aren't supposed to be. So why should the world of The Elder Scrolls be limited to what's it's lore says it must be? Why can't a Breton be stronger than an Orc if it wants to be? Sure, it may be unusual and outside of their terms of possibility, but so is a man in the real world being able to lift a Volkswagen Beetle and proceed to start balancing it on his head with no problem whatsoever.

My issue is, why should characters in The Elder Scrolls be limited to what the lore tells them they are when they have the opportunity and the chance to be something greater?

Sure, you can get exceptions, but if you want to be the strongest Breton, even stronger than an Orc, go for it. Only there's an Orc that wants to be the strongest in the whole of Skyrim, and he just happens to have genetics/his natural "Orchishness" to help him be that much stronger. Perhaps the Orc wouldn't be much stronger than the Breton, but if they both want to be the strongest in the world, and both train just as hard everyday, the racial ability of the Orc is always going to give him the edge.

» Tue May 03, 2011 4:36 am

Nope. So don't act like they only subtract.

actually yeah, they could have. what they have done is removed attributes, that is the only change, we will still have to level skills to level up like before. the only thing that has changed is that there are no attributes. they could have let it be and have all the more time to make more perks or make better perks.

we can have both, and a simple closed minded "nope" isn't productive. its just automatic gainsay because you don't like what your hearing.