I've seen much weeping and gnashing of teeth over this whole attributes thing, but in all honesty with the new leveling system they'd all be kinda redundant. They were just the basis of determining other stats that directly affected gameplay. Like Todd Howard puts it in several interviews, Intelligence was really only ever used to measure your Magicka. Now that this stat is increased directly, it doesn't exactly make sense to keep the attribute. It would really just be redundant. And I know what some of you are thinking, it could still have an effect on your stats, i.e. higher intelligence score means you increase your Magicka faster. Thing is, perks would probably cover something like that anyways. Higher multipliers for your Magicka or flat bonuses, regeneration rate (Willpower) and drain rate (i.e. make fire spells cheaper). The central determining factor to your character's unique skillset is neither the three core attriburtes nor any of the 18 skills, it is the perks. In truth I wish the perks were called feats instead, just because it sounds more... Norse. It's a word you would say while sitting shirtless in the freezing cold atop the polar bear whose throat you just tore out with your teeth, not what a limp-wristed technology-coddled vault dweller would stammer while drinking his nancy-boy Earl Grey tea (but not too hot!).

Anyways, my point is this: all of those derivative stats can still be non-static and can still be governed by your character's core stats. Some races are likely faster than others by default: Khajiit, Argonian, and Bosmer could all be quite fast, but have lower maximum encumbrance as a drawback to that, and it's highly likely that Bretons and Altmer will get bigger bonuses to Magicka on a level-up. I certainly hope so. It would make them far more distinct and still encourage you to adopt the traditional archetypes of your race. Perhaps race-specific walk/run animations will exist, or race-specific perks? From there your Fatigue level would be a determining factor in your encumbrance, and the type of armor you wear will have a very pronounced effect on your speed.

Seriously, don't panic. Interviews have stated that all the derived stats of the past games are still there but are now defined by other factors. If nothing else, you should keep this in mind: You no longer have to spend ridiculous quantities of time jumping around like an idiot to level up.

well topic title may be a tad strongly worded but i agree except on the subject of jumpin i think i heard somewhere it was merged with athletics and even if its not a skill im sure you can still jump

I agree.

I think an old proverb could not be a better fit in this situation:

Less is more.

INB4LOCK :brokencomputer:

3 points per level
You select 3 attributes every level
Skills shouldn't be governed by Attributes

That's the only compromise that I can see working because I don't see Attributes working in Skyrim under any type of a system.

Oh a thread about attributes, are peoples ego so big they can't post in an open thread. Is the fear of your brilliant idea being buried so great?

I'll tell this to my wife next time she wants jewelry.

And addition by subtraction.

I prefer strong words. They're unambiguous.

:disguise: DEAL WITH IT. :disguise:

The thing is it doesn't how much you tell these guys they will not see beyond their Traditional RPG Concepts.. seriously its getting tiering to discuss this in these forums.

The basic fundamental idea is not bad but a few flaws do arise with it, and these topics weren't covered in the article.

Really the only flaw this introduces is that at the beginning of the game, every character you make will be completely identical. It's a far cry from back in the days of daggerfall where you had complete and utter freedom in making a character exactly how you want them. What disappoints me is that I really enjoyed Daggerfall's character creation, and progressively the character creation has gotten smaller and smaller as each TES title goes by and I can never make the type of character I want. At first I though "no more birth-signs" was a blessing, but it seems there is really nothing to do in character creation.

While many people may want to "play into" their characters, I'm still disappointed that I'm being forced to play in such a way, where I actually prefer to build a character to my exact specifications from the start. This sin;t some sort of dealbreaker for me, but it has made much skeptisism and diappoitnment for me, as I do like to "build" characters from the start, as apposed to doing it through the game.


I've always been partial to creating and playing 10+ drastically different characters toe experience the game from every possible spectrum, but this will not be very possible with skyrim; at least not until I reach level 5 or so. The first playthrough of skyrim with this new system will no doubt be amazing, but if I want to create another character that is geared to a completely different approach, it won't work. I'll be forced to drudge through the game, grinding away at my skills so I can play differently later on, as apposed to being able to build a character a specific way from the start, and play the game that way from the very beginning as if my character has always been that way.

In Daggerfall you can drop into the world as "Fangor, the Talented Gruff Claymore weilding Nord" or drop into it as "Raylin the Silver-Tongued Breton Mage-Scholar" but in Skyrim with every character I make, I'll be dropping into the game as "Generic Template #1, the bland and useless peon who must play into his character over the span of two days"

That's a flaw in the game though... Its not something to use as evidence that it doesn't really matter much ~the fact that it doesn't is the problem. Its not something to build on; that's like installing a drain in the floor under a leaky sink ~instead of just fixing the sink.

**Am I terribly wrong, or does this imply that the PC is being even further divested of personality and being further fashioned into a sort of digital costume?
IMO that's rancid for an RPG.

This about 1,000 times over.

Your anology is rather weak. If anything it's more like replacing the broken sink with a new one. It doesn't matter that this one is different. Its function is the same.

Also in retrospect, yeah, I should have found another attribute thread, but there were so many I wasn't sure which was the "main" one.



They've said that the races will be more distinct this time. Like I pointed out above, it will likely have a significant impact on your stats. And again, the perks are the main mechanic of your character's abilities. Your Breton mage and Nord barbarian will sure as hell be distinct from one another, and your backstory will be whatever you want it to be. Are you honestly telling me that because you don't check a box that says "mage" you have absolutely no intention of playing a mage?

While I do understand your point, and really wouldn't be as sad as some others if attributes were to be removed, your methodology forgets to explain one thing to a certain number of people.

What about the people, like myself, who want to break those archetypes and be better than the other races? What if we want a Dark Elf that is faster than a Khajiit, or a Breton that is stronger than an Orc. I don't know about you, but I don't like being limited to what the game tells me I am, I want to be what I want to be. If that vision of my character is outside of my archetype, then so be it. Besides, I love the feeling of having a character that is different and unique in an Elder Scrolls game.

The current system you're explaining, or even that Bethesda may be implementing, sounds a lot more restrictive towards those ideals than the former system of attributes. Now, if the new system were to allow the same freedoms as the old system, plus maybe even some more, then I wouldn't be as worried.

Nevertheless though, I'll still be buying the game compared to some others who seem to be boycotting it due to the possible lack of attributes.

its not that attributes are gone, its that they wasted so much on making a system that does what attributes did without the attributes.

The old attribute system was perfect to make every single race in the game perfectly identical once you capped the attributes at 100.

None of my anologies are weak. :laugh:

(Some of them are 'out there'; I'll grant you that.)

I agree. the sink anology is basically exactly how it is. Rather than fixing as a flawed system they introduced an entirely new system than along with it introduced an entirely new set of flaws.

Rather than fixing the current system they just created a new variety of totally different problems.



Daggerfall did it best. You were free to create whatever you wanted from the start, and as you level up you are still free to assign attribute points to whatever you want. With Morrowind and Oblivion they just introduced tedious limitations and With Skyrim they'd just reversed the system so the tedious limitations are on the other end (equally bad) of the spectrum. Once again, Im still going to buy and love the game, but I don't know why they changed the system at all since Daggerfall. it was a good system, why does it need to be completely revamped every time.

I'm talking about single characters, not multi.

Besides, I'd rather have the characters be equal at the end (due to long and rigorous training and leveling) and not restricted than equal at the beginning and restricted.

Bible shoutout? Nice.

Also agreed. TES will always be good. There are minor problems with each one. Minor. Not life threatening.

Can't wait for more!

It just means that in Oblivion, you started the game as an halfway experienced adventurer but in Skyrim you'll start as a random joe of a specific race that was found rotting in a prison and now was thrown on the adventure rather forcefully and has to pick up some skills quickly if he wants to live.

The problem with that it doesn't make an awful lot of sense. Why would a Breton ever be stronger than an Orc?? Bretons grow up using magic and are typically not as heavy built as other humans, let alone Orcs. Sure, you might be able to find a few Bretons that are unnaturally strong, and indeed are stronger than some Orcs, but you'll never find the strongest Breton to be stronger than the strongest Orc; it just doesn't make any sense, lore wise.

Win.