So you have no problem with races being strictly aesthetic? I totally get people don't want to be penalized for choosing a race that is against the grain for a certain play type, I just don't see a huge deal with being a little weaker as a bosmer wielding
Something as large as he is. It just makes sense to me, and it'd be something I could live with.

People have been spoiled by the last two games and don't view this as the game flaw that it is.

I guess lol, but for the record my elder scrolls experience started in morrowind myself, and I still think its a huge issue.

If the OP is correct and attributes are out, causing your race to be the most important factor in what class you play, then I will be disappointed greatly. I don't want races to be strictly aesthetic, but I don't want to be severely penalized for not picking the best stealth race or not picking the best mage race.

No, I'm sorry it's not a flaw. Generalizing a entire race would be a flaw and against what Elder Scrolls is. Do whatever you want, be whoever you want, whenever you want. Sure, Orcs are naturally built to be stronger than Bosmer, but there is nothing stopping my Bosmer becoming the most tough barbarian to ever exist. Same the other way around. Bosmer are naturally more nimble and agile. But what's stopping my Orc from becoming the worlds greatest thief? Nothing.

Should Orcs start out with higher strength and endurance? Yes. That's how they are naturally built.
Should Orcs be allowed to become stealthy assassins? YES. But it will take more work to become one then say, a Khajiit or Bosmer.

Doing it this way seems contradictory with their decision to remove classes. It would end up still having classes, just calling them "Altmer" instead of "Mage". Attributes could be either in or out, but I think it makes more sense to have racial bonuses not double up on the effects of skills as much as possible.


Actually the last four games. (what I mean is it's not a new thing. Morrowind added the magicka bonus which is probably the biggest racial effect)

Its not gunna be a huge problem though, I mean the skills will be the same... you can still have a great orc assassin... he just wouldn't be as nimble as a bosmer... I believe you're under the assumption that picking a combat race for stealth would kill your character... it wouldn't. How many times have you played a mage with a race other than altmer or breton? Prolly not many... you already get penalized for the magicka aspect of the race decision... why not with strength? Or speed? Speed doesn't affect sneak, just speed. And if you choose a bosmer barbarian, then deal with the issues you may face for not being as strong, and use the speed you have to your advantage... it doesn't make one race necessarily worse than another, just different.

So we can hear some "Seen any... "Elves"? Muhahaha..."
Yes, nice, although slightly off here.

I think he accidentally his post. :brokencomputer:

I think I'd be okay with certain races having a minimal advantage, but I used to enjoy playing a breton theif/illusionist. And why not? I specifically remember one of morrowind's books with a character who was a massive, dumb breton. Uncommon, but so is a dragonborn.

I wish they didnt take out attributes but they did :verymad: oh well Skyrim is still looking like it will be the best TES game so far

being.

I agree that certain races need to have advantages over other races, but that will not stop me from playing a Dunmer Knight type of character. If I have a strength disadvantage I will have it, no worries for me, it is part of the immersion.

I'd actually prefer races to be purely cosmetic. I'm still angry that High Elves and Bretons end up with larger magicka reserves, in the long run, than all other races.

In other words... nothing need change.

The problem though is your toughest ever Bosmer would be identical to your toughest ever Orc come end game and that makes for poor replay value.

Like I said people are spoiled having race as a cosmetic character creation option. Get ready for a change because it's all but confirmed that larger racial distinction is in.

Look at it this way though, now you can choose a race based on merit but if your a real die hard you'll stick with your previous choice and accept the challenges presented to that race while playing your chosen class. Who knows, you may actually want to see how your chosen class plays on other races or even how other classes play on your chosen race. Damn with three basic classes and ten races that's like thirty different experiences right there. THAT is what an rpg is all about right there.

You raise a good point, though I will admit I never play Altmer mages. I find them to be annoying jerks. I also have never played a Breton in general. Just not interested. I choose race based on which ones I like, not because I'll get a cool stat boost. :shrug:

It's really a tough issue, because I don't think your Bosmer barbarian should never be able to achieve 100 strength for instance. Though I'm fine with Altmer and Breton's having higher magic. I think they should give the other races better racial bonuses instead of penalizing other races.

Edit* @Worm82075

This is where are opinions differ. I don't see the replay value in playing as a different race just because they get better stat bonuses. They should differentiate the races in a separate way then saying. "Okay, Orcs and Nords are the only race that can reach 100 strength. Or, they can achieve 110 strength but other races cannot" As is pointed out above, the other races kinda get the shaft in terms of racial abilities as opposed to Bretons and Altmer. And here is where we agree. Altmer and Bretons will be better spellcasters than other races because they have a higher mana pool. But Altmer in turn have a HUGE weakness to magic. Which is a tradeoff. If all the races had some sort of advantage/disadvantage similar to the character creation in Daggerfall I would be fine with that. We're kind of saying the same thing only wanting to implement in different it seems.

If Attributes were static throughout the entire game in oblivion, then nothing would need change... but I'm saying if attributes are removed, and they cannot be increased unless a perk is used, the way oblivion starts characters out would be fine, you just couldn't max out all the attributes by power.leveling, making each race unique.
What I'm proposing isn't all that different from oblivion character creation. It just eliminates the ridiculous attribute raising system in favor of a more static, but not entirely concrete, use of attributes.

Agreed. Freedom is key to making a good sandbox game. I don't like the limiting of choices. If I want to be a homeless nord thief then it should be slightly difficult at first but as I level up it doesn't make any sense for my nord to get stronger and more warrior like if he's just sneaking around all day and shooting arrows from far off. No, I want choosable attibutes at the begining and throughout, it's a fun feature in RPGs.

I'm glad someone sees it exactly as I do.

No, that svcks. How about we choose how we want to play and leave it at that. An elder scrolls rpg is all about choice and freedom, not having things chosen for you. It takes away from the game when it's all predetermined. I don't play linear games for a reason. They're uncreative and restrictive.

Uh huh, you want to have your cake and eat too. If in an Action/RPG you can do everything in one play through then it is more Action then RPG and that just isn't right for a game claiming to be an RPG. Bethesda is finally looking towards balancing the Action and the RPG and they are going to inject some RPG back into the races. Prepare yourself because it's going to happen.

What you're suggesting completely goes against the reason they removed classes. In the Skyrim issue Todd says they got rid of it because there is noway to tell in the first hour just how you want to play in a game that large. So, I don't see why they would say in the first second of gameplay "Okay, pick your race. It's going to be a seriously different experience than playing as any other race." :shrug:

Yeah it adds a lot more depth and options to the game to have the perks rather than attributes.

I really like the idea that the OP is proposing for my own personal game play. However, as a designer I would be very reluctant to put restrictions on something for somebody else if there is room for comprimise. There are many here who truly feel like these racial restrictions would prevent them from role playing a character, even if strange, they would enjoy playing.

Since that is that case, I would look for a comprimise while still as a designer look to put my own perception into the game world (since, as the designer, my perception is the most important). I think making certain races increase in certain skills or attributes like speed or strength faster than others, but not limiting the other races from achieving the same level is a good comprimise.

I would propose giving a new value to each attribute called 'potential'. The level of potential is unchangeable. The higher your level of potential that is tied into a certain attribute the faster that attribute will be increased (or skill). So a Khajit will have say a Potential Level of 50 on the attribute Speed and Acrobatics, where an Orc's potential would be 0 (or defualt) towards the aformentioned attributes. A Khajit's Speed and Acrobatics would increase 50% faster than default. This is just an example of the idea. Tell me what you think!