I'd like it, but as long as it's just to the extent that "the strongest Nord will always be stronger than the strongest Bosmer", not to the extent of "the strongest Bosmer will always be weaker than an average Nord".

Great idea. I had a very similar idea months ago but I couldn't really articulate it the way i wanted into a topic.

some people are making the rather stupid assumption that this is like comparing people of different color. last time i checked khajits and elves werent even human. so the anology is just [censored]. there should be much bigger differences between the races. if you choose to make a bosmer warrior than you should expect him to be weaker than an orc or nord with equivalent training and level. you could compensate by making your bosmer warrior more of a finesse fight like a ninja or fencer since the bosmer is faster. khajit should be able to run or jump better at any level than their human counterparts. argonians should be able to swim much faster than other species since their bodies are adapted for it. it is utterly asinine that an orc or nord can swim just as fast as an argonian. you could give disadvantages to them such as argonians having less fatigue and shorter sprints which fits win with their reptile biology. khajit would be aquaphobic and have a tendency to be distracted by all the yarn found as loot.

all the races already have powers and abilities that make them better at something over another race such as magic resistances etc. this is only a logical extension into the physical aspects as well. at level 100 a nord should be stronger than a bosmer and a bosmer in turn will be more agile than a nord. it should be such a huge gap that making a nord mage is impossible but it should be more difficult.

Strong arguments !

The real-world all races are the same argument is silly and hyper-sensitive. Human races are different and no one is arguing superiority. Genetically, races are too insignificant to really classify, as there is more genetic diversity just in Sub-Saharan Africa than in the entire rest of the world. But there are significant differences. An example is that people with darker skin, Africans for example, have difficulty producing vitamin D in regions where there is not a lot of sunlight. However, they're much better protected from sun damage than Caucasians. Eyelids with epicanthic folds (on Asians) are thought to be an adaptation to the environment. Anthropologists can identify, with a high degree of accuracy, race just by looking at a skull. Males and females have differently shaped skulls (in the brow, jaw, and chin) as well as illiums.

That said, most of the races in Elder Scrolls are entirely different SPECIES with completely different origins, and some that have been changed by freaking gods. It's logical for them to have much more striking differences than men in the real world who are the same species. Orcs and dunmer were changed by daedra. Redguards aren't related to Nords and Imperials. Bretons are combined from men and elves (which in the real world would be impossible). Diversifying the races through endgame is a fantastic idea to make the decision more than just one of aesthetics. It's not only lore-consistent but makes for more interesting and unique characters. And as has been mentioned, if you make your Orc into a spell-caster and really train those skills, he'll still be better than most of the Altmer in Skyrim because you worked for it. If he needs to be the absolute best at something he's not naturally talented at, well there are ways to compensate.

I'm all for the enhancing of racial trait abilities.

On the whole racial attributes I'm cut in half though. I like be who you want philosophy but I want races to feel different. But there are other ways to make races feel different....

It's not saying you can't be as strong as another race no matter what..let's say a Bosmer with 100 strength would be stronger than a Nord with like 30 or 50 strength, but when it comes to it they're just not as strong of a race, so at 100 strength the Nord would crush the Bosmer.

Side note - I agree it didn't make a lot of sense in Oblivion seeing things like Bosmer warriors and Orc thieves (and yes I have had friends make both of those classes). Definately the races should be more streamlined. I never saw a reason to try other races or experience anything other than Dunmer and Breton cause of the fire resistance or high magicka.

[censored] dude chill out. Every post I've seen from you you've been all critical and, while I know tone of voice can't be understood online, I'm really getting a snooty, arrogant vibe from the way you write. Seriously man nobody's on here to be hostile, we're discussing ideas for an epic new game coming out.

Smoke a j and chill out.

I would quote even more posts, but these sum it up perfectly. Dragonbone has been correct on the mark this entire thread, for one. daylahung added perfect real world examples to quell the silly race argument. squeekers1234 sums up the in-game lore race differences as well. Also, the simple post made by Miltiades sums up my opinion as well.

Being of different races in TES entails having built in advantages and disadvantages already. It is completely within reason for both gameplay and lore that not only race powers, but built in race attribute modifiers should level with the player throughout the game to some extent.

It is also a ridiculous notion for anyone to fear that their character will be "weaker" than another. My addition to the arguments already stated concerning this is HUGE: Since these attributes will realistically only affect the PC and not change the gameplay experience otherwise, this is the perfect area for Bethesda to capitalize on creating REPLAY VALUE by having different races with real, appreciable, and long-lasting benefits. Keep in mind as well, that these are conversely countered by race disadvantages, which adds to the replay value even more!

There is no legitimate counter to the proposal for Bethesda to actually implement this in Skyrim. Anyone who has concerns, state them here and I assure you I can tell you how it will be better for the game to include this change.

Sounds cool. I like the idea of the various races being more differentiated.

Would like to see the multipliers in game though (maybe if you hover over with the mouse for more info).

The large cats that are stronger than humans are stronger than humans because they are larger than humans. Your average Bengal tiger is 500 pounds of solid muscle and bone. If a human was (somehow) 500 pounds of solid muscle then he'd probably be able to take on a tiger, at least in a strength sense.

You want to argue about strength? Chimpanzees have immense strength, they can tear a mans arms off. They are one of our closest distant relatives, yet they are much, much stronger than the average human. That's because each species adapts to do what it needs to do, and do it efficiently.


Khajiits and Argonians being of a different ancestor background would have no effect on their strength.. just as some of the distant ancestors of humans may have been stronger and sturdier in construction, yet now we are not. Argonians are fast because speed is what is needed for survival in Black Marsh. Khajiits are agile and not strong because that is what was needed to survive in their surroundings. End of story.

Night eye for khajiits needs to be toggable.

Don't waste your time Hypno Toad, archmage was just throwing a fit because she(?) doesn't want to admit that races are different IRL, and will argue about anything related to this topic just because many people here have stated the politically incorrect truth.

As I said above, there is no legitimate argument against the proposed idea stated so far that doesn't come off making you sound like a nutjob. Bethesda obviously backs up that point based on previous TES lore and gameplay mechanics, as well.

Political correctness/realism aside (despite the fact that races should have differences) having differences in races is just better gameplay and more diversity.

This multiplier idea is great, as I sated a few pages ago, one of the problems as I see it is that at level 40 there's basically no difference between races.. having a multiplier to increase or decrease a race's maximum attributes would be great.

Smart and simple, I like it.


Exactly my feelings by later level they all just felt the same. Race multipliers in truth this makes non sterotypical class/race combos feel even more unique. "This little Bosmer's going pump you up." or ups a very intelligent Orc didn't see that one coming did you Altmer.
Reviewing all of the race traits they all seem like they would scale well; Altmer's Enhanced Magicka may start +50 but by lv 40 or so reach as high as 150, scaling Beserk or Adrenaline Rush, increasing Nordic Frost damage and increasing fatigue drained by Star of the West and increasing level of effectiveness of Eye of Fear and Beast Tongue.
The % resit disease, magicka and etc scale by nature. The Argonian water breathings is the only one that really can't be scaled very well, but as many on this forum has suggested let them swim much faster, 3X speed attribute. Scaling traits would add more diversity and fun, better replay.
I want to see a level 50 Nord make the fires of oblivion freeze over with his Nordic Frost. Yes, I am suggesting allowing players to make hell freeze over once a day... and they would like it.

How about this argument:
A starting bonus may make sense, but a multiplier over time becomes overboard. If you look at the Olympics for example certain ethnic backgrounds do tend to excel more at certain sports, likely due genetic factors. This is not, however, something so exclusive as to be multiplicative. Multiplicative is way too much, and that is why I give this a big no. Multiplicative would mean say a Breton would be many times more powerful at magic than a masterful Orc or Nord magician, or that even a Nord or Orc that doesn't focus on physical skills would be many times better at melee than a melee focused Altmer or Breton. Multipliers go way too far. By the time your character is competant at what they do, race shouldn't matter that much.

Edit:
Okay for most of the stats the example given isn't that much either, but I still prefer slight bonuses at character creation rather than permanent multipliers.

I completely agree if the multipliers were 2X or 3X making the Brenton many times more powerful in magic than an Orc. What is suggested by the original post and generally those that like this idea is mulitpliers in the range of 0.9X to maybe 1.1X. So taking strength for example in the most mismatched case of a Bosmer and an Orc would be 90 to 110 while the other races falling somewhere in between in strength. While in agility the Bosmer maxed might have 110 and the Orc only 95 still making the Bosmer viable for melee combat.

Way to not read the OP. Being multiplied b y 1.1x means it's 10% better. That's not much, but enough for an edge. If a Breton has a 1.2x INT multiplier, and an orc has a 0x multiplier, that means a Breton would have a max intelligence of 120 comparatively (though it will still stay 100), whereas the orc has a straight 100.

Olympics have little to do with it. If Nords are bigger than Wood Elves, then they'll always be stronger, the wood elf has a maximum strength capacity below that of the Nord because he/she has a much smaller frame.

Don't accuse me of not reading the original post when you didn't read my edit (which you quoted).

I think it should be in(as I already have stated), but I think i should be subtle so any character could do anything. I think Beth have a plan on how to make the races more unique this time so I think we don't have to worry. If that made any sense of course.

The attribute/skill bonuses that you get from the races should not (only) be starting bonuses, you should also be a able to extend yourself further in that particular attribute, than the other races.

A Bosmer should never be able to achieve the same level of strength as an Orc, because the Orc is by nature stronger, and so it should have a greater potential in the area of strength.

A Bosmer could be stronger than an Orc, but an Orc which have come to its full strength potential, should be matched by no other.

This should be the same for the other race bonuses, a Bosmer will at its full potential naturally be the superior archer.


The way this could be implemented is that the Orc for example, will be able to train its strength to 150. the number is not important, since this is a matter of balance.

They were in in oblivion. Chech out RACES at UESP (TES wiki)

I voted no on the first. In Oblivion, I played for awhile with a mod that made your maximum attribute higher or lower depending on your starting value. That was affected by race, class, birthsign, whatever bonuses you started with. It was okay there, but with classes removed, I wouldn't like it if they gave you max stat differences based on race only without giving you some other ways to adjust it in character creation.

The second one is good though. I think they'd also be more useful if you didn't have to wait a whole day to reuse them.

While true, there are genetics that follow racial patterns, somebody who is white is far less likely to get Sickle-cell Anaemia then somebody who is black. This said, somebody who is white but has some African descent could still get the disease while somebody who has no African descent has almost no chance of being able to develop the disease. There were many occurrences of "racist science", however it can't be ignored that there is common descent that follow racial lines... So yes, Asians do tend to be slightly smaller then Europeans and a guy who is 25% larger then another guy is going to have a lot more strength and endurance, but less agility and speed.... I am for this idea, I would just like it limited to the 10% differences as given. Since it would be a bit over the top to go the other way.

Just to show I am not being biased or racist here, I would also note that while black people are black, white people aren't really white, rather white people are black. Might sound strange but the reason white people (and I am white), appear white is because the epidermis in white people becomes translucent/transparent, conversely it is the collagen and adipose tissue that is white. Darker people have more Melanosome in their skin and thus this covers over the white tissues beneath the epidermis. So the difference in skin color is not even so much color as it is about what part of the skin is most visible. And at the end of the day, racial traits only go so far, environmental traits are also a factor and people are individuals deserving of equal rights.

I would actually like a few more variable options then previous games, I'd like to see a height slider, so that you could have a tall Breton or a short Nord (tho a Tall Breton would probably be about the same height as a short Nord) and actually I am curious why height hasn't been a slider in previous games, given that it has always been possible via setScale.

To finish I must say, I don't believe it's right we should ignore things just because common descent leads to certain aspects being related more generally to people of certain race or ethnicity, thus why I believe this thread is a good idea. Generally a Nord will be stronger then a Breton, however a Breton that trains up will still be able to over come a Nord, if Nord had a 1.10 modifier and Breton a .95 in strength. A Breton that worked up to 80 strength, would end out at 76 strength but if the Nord had not worked at it and was on 60 strength, he'd still only have 66 strength after the modifier, 10 less then the Breton.

I think that we don't have attributes anymore, but still, I would like to see something like you have suggested.
I mean, there should be some difference between races except just looks.
True that there were differences between races in previous games, but they weren't done well in my opinion.
Also full support that some abilities gained by race get stronger as you level up.
Some of them become totally useless late game.