Sorry Zeopard I didn't see your edit. My kids last night were wired like they had had a couple of cappuccinos. They were a bit distracting, but regardless sorry I didn't catch the edit.


I think Todd said there would be attributes, but they have reduced effects, perks will be more important and make each toon more unique.

Thanks for correcting me on that one.

Just to get back to your point today, I'll comment on why even a multiplier above 2x could be implemented fairly. Keep in mind that in TES, no matter what Bethesda decides to set NPC skills at, consider that perhaps the benefit of the race modifier will only apply to the PC, in the same way that AFAIK NPC's don't have greater race powers they can use in former TES titles. Therefore, as a player, you need not truly be concerned whether or not you could eventually be stronger as an Orc than you can be as a Bosmer, because you won't have to worry about actually fighting an enemy Orc who has that modifier anyway, meaning you'll be stronger than any enemy Orc once you train high enough. Alternately, you should then know that when starting a game as an Orc, you have a huge potential to be a stronger warrior than another race choice has.

Does that mean you have to be a warrior? Not at all. It simply means Beth is giving you the lore-accurate option of being a very strong, warrior-like race. If you choose to capitalize on the strength boost to be a warhammer-using warrior, as an example, then you'll be very happy to have chosen an Orc for your warrior style gameplay. But you also won't see any negative effect whatsoever if you instead choose to play an Orc mage, archer, assassin, etc.

To me this seems like exactly the route Bethesda should and will go to really give us all the freedom of choice to be whatever race we want, without classes, and still play however we please.

SIDE NOTE: As I was typing, it did occur to me that there may be proper quest-related instances where Bethesda can and arguably should apply a race multiplier to NPCs based entirely on the situation.

Example - You are tasked to go beat up a gang in a tevern using only hand-to-hand. You already excel fairly well at this type of combat, so you are fairly confident this will be an easy quest. Perhaps you are accustomed to fighting mixed race groups of Imperial, Khajiit, and Redguard bandits in the woods, and you beat them easily. However, when you walk into the tavern, you see a uniformed gang of bandits with red leather gauntlets. As the hulking bandits step out of the shadowy corner, you see their faces. You stand shocked. Every one of them is a snarling, angry Orc. This quest just took on a whole new dimension......Now, say these gangmember Orcs have a small strength modifier in place specifically for the quest, thus making them both practically (by the stats), and lorewise (they're huge Orcs!) more dangerous foes in melee combat. Does that not sound like a more gameplay and story suited option than, say, walking in and seeing a bunch of hissing Argonians in the mountains, who have no special ability with H2H/melee combat OR with surviving the harsh environment???

I would much appreciate all your thoughts on the possibility of race modifiers for NPCs, as a separate point

not a great fan of multipliers as i find that i want to be a specific race for the looks but the style i play with has no mulitplier affects on my character

Yeah? And what "truth" would that be?

I never stated races are not inherently different in the real world. But being born of a certain race does NOT determine a person's skills or talents. To suggest so is not only "politically incorrect", it is flat-out WRONG/FALSE/FAULTY/UNTRUE. As in, You Get Nothing. You Lose. Good Day, Sir.

double post

I like this idea. A lot. It'd make sure my Khajiit are always speedier and more agile than other races.

Your tone displayed in each post is indicative of what I said. When you argue that people do NOT need to mention differences between races in the real world, you are saying you doubt the validity of said differences. Fact of the matter is, the races of TES not only have different physical characteristics, but also legitimate differences in ability/skill/talent at different things. Your point about skills and talents is fine for the real world, but obviously that's not how Bethesda made TES, since race attribute and skill modifiers already exist. Therefore there is no reason for you to argue here about things you cannot decide on. Bethesda makes the lore, and they say there are race modifiers.

Also, arguing against me stating the obvious accomplishes nothing. And perhaps you missed what I said, as I made no point about "skills or talents" between races IRL. I specifically quoted others mentioning real life differences in physical characteristics.Yet now you are admitting races do have differences IRL, and yet before people mentioning that was upsetting you....

Obviously you are hypersensitive about racial issues in real life. I can understand that, as I am of the same opinion about skills and talents amongst varying races. However, there is no need for such forceful defense of that topic here, where no one is claiming otherwise, and no "racist science" is being proposed. Don't let that issues cloud your judgement about what is being discusssed here though, or we'll get another mod post about race arguments. I was warning hypno toad so he wouldn't continue doing what others had already done.

So no, I don't lose.

Skills or talents is one thing, this isn't about either however, it's physical attributes... Europeans historically are taller then Asians and generally stronger, this lead European warfare into a more strength and protection driven style where as in Asia (more so Japan) the weaponry indicates more of a baring on Agility and Evasion. This isn't to say that Europeans never used agility or evasion or that Asians didn't use strength or protection but that due to the average differences of the physical attributes between the two, there was a tendency in different directions. It's likely that Europeans were just adapting to European conditions and Asians to Asian conditions that lead to such differences. The fact is, if you are 5 foot 2, you will probably have less strength then somebody 6 foot 9 but you will be more agile, irrelevant of race. Then again as I mentioned earlier, there are common trait and in this case, both the racial trait and the height are two common traits being inherited together. There are still people in Europe who are shorter and taller then average as well as in Asia, but on average Europeans are taller then Asians... it's not racism, it's not politically incorrect, it just is as it is. The problem with truth is it is inconvenient for many.

All of this said tho, Intelligence generally isn't varied genetically across Humans, however Chimps clearly are not at the same level we are, they are a different species. Remember that Argonians and Khajiit are not separate races to either the humans or the elves they are in fact separate species. It's not racism to say that intelligence might vary, just as it isn't between Humans and Chimps (or if you question this this Humans and Goldfish). Even Elves and Humans are some what separate in this respect... after all the Elves are living 1,000+ years too where a human brain just wouldn't be capable of surviving for so long... rather a notable difference. Now in humans I accept that there is not really much difference in genetics for the brain or how the brain works, so really there is not much different in Intelligence, there are some minor factors that effect the way the brain is cooled but such differences would likely have less of an effect then moving 2 miles away from the equator, just really not noticeable at all. Personally I believe differences we see in groups in regards to Intelligence are cultural and dietary, there have been after all great thinkers and scientists from just about every ethnicity around. In the end we aren't talking about just one specie, we are talking about effective at least 3 different species (Khajiit, Argonians, Humans/Elves/Orcs) but the differences between Humans and Elves while being able to breed developed really as two separate species, with Breton being a hybrid in the middle. So even Intelligence can be varied realistically without being "racist" or politically incorrect.

so no, I think it's you who has lost in trying to be PC when PC actually doesn't truthfully apply, PC should only apply when it comes to respect, it is disrespectful to almost everybody to avoid the truth just because you fear it could offend somebody.

You said:



No, I didn't "miss what you said". It's right there. ^ And NO. I never claimed races did not have different physical attributes IRL. That's insane. Quote me where I have said that. EVERYONE has different physical attributes. That's what I'm trying to say. Just because I am a Nord IRL doesn't mean I will be born with +10 strength, or that my "Nord blood" grants me a 0.1 strength multiplier throughout the rest of my life. It doesn't work that way. There are skinny Nords, just as there are dumb Asians. Basically, this is introducing racial stereotypes into a video game, which I do not agree with. They may as well just rename Nord race the Aryans, and make them super versed in the art of Mein Kampf. This has nothing to do about being hypersensitive about racial issues in real life. I want to ROLE PLAY in Skyrim, not RACE PLAY. I want to choose any damn race I want, and level up his skills AND attributes just as well as any other race. I don't want any more racial limitations than there was already in Oblivion.

Again, you're being defensive. No one is attacking the races of the real world. I simply stated what you logically implied by rebutting the posts of so many people. I don't need a quote to make a logical leap. Obviously you agree with what I posted, so that argument is done.

Now let me ask you truly, why is it a problem that the races of TES have different skills and talents? Real life aside, I want to know what downside there could be to the gameplay.

Of course it's not a problem. But players should be able to CHOOSE 100% what skills and attributes of their character, no matter the race. A player should not be limited by choosing a specific race, other than the bonus at the start of the game.

*scratches head*... sorry... but really? When you think of a viking do you think of an agile guy swinging around a fast sharp sword or do you think of a more muscular taller guy fighting with shields and axes? If you say the former you are just lying, either to us or to yourself. I have said it earlier, a short Nord would probably be about the same height as a tall Breton, that said culturally the Nord would do more as Nords do and be encouraged down a strength path rather then a knowledge one. While it is possible that a Nord wouldn't follow their cultural traditions, TES has been a game where races generally have some unique culture and so cultural differences I think also make up for some of that difference.

As for Aryans, Aryans weren't just suppose to be stronger, they were suppose to be brighter, more intelligent, quicker and mainly just better, we are not purposing any race should be unfairly better then any other, just that there should be some racial differences. It certainly has nothing to do with proving Godwin's law and nothing to do boosting racial stereotypes. Also as I have said, it's not just races in Skyrim, it's Species. All of this said tho, if there we to be no racial traits, why have Nord, Imperial and Red Guard, or why have High Elf, Wood Elf and Dark Elf, those become pointless in this, it'd just be style/look. Clearly in the games lore there are differences between these groups, they have come from different regions and aren't going to have identical physical attributes to each other.

Understandable. However, I am confused as to how it is a limitation to be of a certain race...I mean, I know that some of the TES races have weaknesses to certain things, but those are required by the lore. Aside from those, what is the limitation of being a High Elf compared to a Nord, for instance?

As I stated on a previous post, I think some people are not understanding that only the PC needs to experience the effects of the race modifiers. Since that is the case, be it Strength, Intelligence, Willpower, Endurance, or any basic attribute, you will always be able to max out your power in one of those. The same goes for skills. So you will never, from level 1 to level 50, experience a downside to choosing a certain race, because you still can always reach max power in each category without involving race modifiers.

Example:

High Elf mage - Level 50, maxed stats, race modifier bonus gives more power to Intelligence and Willpower (because the Altmer are inherently more attuned to magick than some other races) Note - "attuned to magick" is a physical characteristic
Nord warrior - Level 50, maxed stats, race modifier bonus gives more power to Strength and Endurance (because Nords are a tougher, heartier race with those physical attributes) Note - obviously "tougher, heartier race" is a physical characteristic

Counter example:

High Elf warrior - Level 50, maxed stats, race modifier bonus is the same as above, but it makes no difference to your warrior for the purposes of combat, but doing magick will still be easier if you need to
Nord mage - Level 50, maxed stats, race modifier bonus is the same as above, but it makes no difference to your mage for the purposes of magick, but being more durable and strong while mage-dueling has it's benefits anyway

Point being, there is no downside, only potential upsides. How is this a bad thing?

Actually, yes it does.
There is reason why NBA is mostly made from black people and not Asians.

Sorry Lithary, but I gotta jump in here. I think evryone posting here has misunderstood what archmage has been saying. He's talking about skills and talents. That means he wasn't actually trying to argue about physical characteristics. Obviously tall, skinny, muscular black people are physically built for many sports. And many Asian people are not. That's stating the obvious. The argument made by archmage is concerning things like intelligence and willpower, he just wasn't specific enough about that earlier.

Again, I'll restate what I thoroughly examined above. TES does have inherent differences between races, both concerning physical and non-physical character attributes. That is what we should be discussing here, and nothing else about races IRL. Now please, no more about non-game-related arguments before a mod comes in here.

The differences in starting skills is based on the culture and traditions of each race. Since TES world is not a 'melting pot' each race is segregated into their own areas and developed individual cultures around specific trades. The Orcs focus on armor crafting trades so the average Orc has more general knowledge in that area than say the average Altmer who is exposed mainly to magical arts. It has nothing to do with physical or genetic characteristics and everything to do with regional cultures and traditions.

EDIT: I do not want to cause another 'irl' discussion, but I think the developers took inspiration from human development studies that indicate children who participate and experience activities like painting and musical instruments will have greater capacity for improvement and average greater physical aptitude for such tasks in advlt life due to the exposure and not because of some superior genetic trait.

While I will say you are right about culture and traditions influencing the races, that still makes no difference as to how that is shown via race multipliers. The race multipliers are numbers that affect gameplay, therefore they have to be considered as such.

I will also point out that you are wrong to say physical and genetic characteristics do not come into play. The races are not only entirely different based on species, but by in-game powers as well. The Argonians being able to breathe underwater is not something they picked up from their culture or as a child. That is an inherited genetic ability that is implemented through the physical characteristic of their special respiratory system. How you could say anything otherwise is just silly. That's also just one example out of many.

Great idea!
The only thing i don't understand is, why do we need to hide the multipliers. Wouldn't it be confusing if an Orc or a Nord with 100 strength is somehow still stronger then an Imperial. I think that different attribute caps for different races would make more sense. No mater how much Bosmer trains he can't be as strong as strongest of the Orks, he's half his size for gods sake!

I never thought of the race attribute differences as a multiplier, but I like it! I don't think the multipliers should grow as they level. It seems like the same training is meant to be a more static growth within the frame of their capabilities (if any of that makes sense)

I would also like to add two possible things to this discussion.

First how about Archetype Multipliers? If you level certain sets of skills (with certain parametres for the bonuses) you gain growing attribute bonuses. Why? A Mage might grow a little stronger as he treks across Skyrim, but that doesn't mean he has technique with it, whereas a warrior might gain strength through swinging an axe and know how to use that increase in strength better. Though if the warrior were to gain some intelligence from fighting tactically, but a mage would be able to use their gained knowledge more effectively.

Also, attribute multipliers as a possible spell effects, either excluding or alongside numerical bonuses.

Strength is physical characteristic.
The point is that there are some things that some races IRL are better than other and that's all.

I think that the differences between the races should be shown in the form of maximum potential.

I.e. an Altmer will receive a full benefit from each point of intelligence up to 110 whereas a Nord would stop receiving a full benefit from each point of intelligence at 90.

Likewise, a Nord will receive a full benefit from each point of Strength up to 110 while the Bosmer stops receiving the benefit at 90. I think that a 10 point over/under is large enough to provide a decent benefit without making the benefit/penalty so severe as to prevent people from playing non-ideal races for different roles.

Archmage seems to not want to pick a different race because theirs is not strong enough? That's what I'm getting but the game is made to be played multiple times or else we'd have one race. Why let them all be the same and waste energy creating different races?

I think the multiplier is a great idea. I don't pick my races for their skill sets.

I have no idea what your point is about Strength....



I agree, even though this discussion has mentioned increasing multipliers, I am personally in favor of a "higher maximum potential" system instead of a multiplier. A Nord should have a 110 strength when maxed, while a Bosmer only has 100 strength when maxed. Vice versa, that Bosmer should have 110 agility when maxed, while the Nord is at 100 when maxed.

That increase in maximum potential should apply to at least a couple attributes, and perhaps 1 or 2 skills per race. I am also 100% in favor of a power multiplier for race specific powers. That's where the multiplier system would do amazing things for each character. i.e. In the same way I will be proud to be a Dragonborn and have awesome Dragonshout skills when I level up, I also want to be proud to be a [insert race here] because I have badass, useful [insert race powers here] when I level up.

You know, done that way, I could think of an easy way to mod that into oblivion. Rather simple actually, just set-up a few scripts that adjust stats based on race so that all racial attributes are effectively equal to 50 and then apply a perm effect to the character that gives fortify or drain effects to those attributes. Really wouldn't be that hard in Oblivion. The only issue I think with it would be that you'd get more/less HP on level up from endurance since I don't think fortify/drain effects are counted. So I am sure if Skyrim uses similar effects and has varying stats, it'd be just as easy to mod Skyrim in this way.