Just curious whatothers thoughts are on racial stats.

I personally really like racial stats as I saw it as an enhancement to character designing the same way unique class direction does. Back in early fantasy games such as Gaunlet, there was always a warrior character, an archer type character & a mage type character. Items along your journey within the game would become available aimed to aid those character choices. Often in games, background and culture would be written into these three character types explaining how and why they are more able in these skills, which to me adds more depth to the game. Even when in-game equipment available is designed more to cater for the races that are more at home to that skill (such as wood elves being better with light armor and bows and being natural trackers and good with herbs etc), I still prefer it this way when going against the grain by being a human in these skills as it gives me a sense of uniqueness (such as Aragon becoming Stroder in LOTR or Tom Cruise's character in The Last Samurai) but more importantly to me, it gives a real sense of culture across the different nations and races adding to the ambience in the game.


Do others like racial directed classes and background and feel it enhances character design or do they think it is restricting in character making?

Given how the kids are crying about the racials in ESO, they'll likely remove them soon, and I fear TES:VI will then be forced to follow

Won't be too big on it since of course it will be too restricting when it comes to making a character. Not to mention currently there is nothing stopping my, say, warrior from picking up some magic due to certain reasons, my mage to put on some heavy armor and picking up a sword, and so on. It gives my character's more freedom.

Currently in ESO I have 3 major characters, the 3 of them are Orc siblings, all raised by an Imperial, one of them is a Paladin of Mara, the other joined the Elite Lion Guard, and the last one is studying in the mages guild, it's roleplay, but I can at use skills, weapons and armor that fits each of their unique personalities and skills.

In other games I would be stuck with "ORC SMASH!" and it won't give me any freedom in writing the backstory aside from "ORC SMASH MORE!"

I don't mind small gains though, like what we do now.

Edit: Just woke up, so hope I understood what you wrote.

Racial characteristics mean different things, in different settings. In TES, Race is a extremely minor aspect of an individual's identity, and overshadowed in almost all regards by Culture. Your Race contributes very little to your character's innate quality, affecting, at most, their physical appearance and a handful of traits (Fire resistance for Dunmer, Night Eye for Khajiit). There are some outliers, like the Argonians, but particularly between Men and Mer Race just isn't that important (functionally, socially it's pretty important, but that's another issue).

This isn't D&D, where Race is a crucial component in a character's identity. Nor should it be forced into that paradigm. Smalle, physiological quirks, sure, but an influence on Skills and Attributes? That belongs in an entirely different category, one that's more individual, and shouldn't be associated with Race at all. Culture, maybe, but that's another discussion.

It's an MMO. Balance needs to be maintained. WoW had to do away with most of it's racials after awhile because it was simply impossible to balance them for PvP. What happens in an MMO has no conceptual bearing on what happens in single player games.

Before they removed Attributes in the later games, the minor racial differences in starting skills, attributes, and abilities made race selection a bit more interesting, but not different enough to be restrictive. You got an initial small bonus in one thing (+5 or +10 in a couple of skills), and a corresponding penalty in another (usually a -10 in one Attribute), but after 3-4 levels you could easily overcome it. There was also a racial "power" that may or may not have been useful. The main point of the differences was for role-play, and it matched the lore by making those races with innate abilities actually have a slight advantage in those abilities.

Removing those differences and making all races "generic", like taking away starting classes, means that every character is now forced to start out as a generic nobody with no previous experiences at anything.....they just magically appeared at age 16 or 18 as a "blank slate". Not a very interesting back-story to work with, in my opinion, but it's "balanced" for multi-player. If you don't do "multi", then their removal is a criminal shame.

Agree here, has no issue with the system in Morrowind and Oblivion and miss attributes in Skyrim, it gave you an starting handicap if you selected atypical skill sets for race but nothing important over time, Oblivion made lots of jokes with breaking racial stereotypes, Morowind had some of them too.

ESO is an MMO and they work totally different. Mark that ESO has probably larger difference at max level than Morrowind has because it has some fixed buffs for races however its so small it don't really matter.

i'd rather they make the races more generic with slight bonuses rather than the poor choice of powers and abilities of the recent titles, where some races had way too much advantage over others. i always thought "powers" were a stupid race concept, about as bad as a birthsign.

it was brought up that a characters' cultural background should have more to do than their race, and I agree. i would like to see character generation choices like region, wealth, parents, profession, leisure, & responsibility have an effect on your character's starting abilities and reputations, rather than starting blank slate and having to define these through gameplay (of course the choices can lead to a blank slate if that's your preference). race would have less to do with development and more with interaction and prejudice.

I don't mind races making a big difference at the start of the game, but we should always be able to overcome those differences as we develop our character; all classes are represented by all races in the games and lore, and plenty of them are pretty damn good regardless of their race. So why not us? Of course, NPC interactions and racial powers should be important at every point in the game, too, regardless of stats.

Controversial thinking: If Bethesda has the cajones (and resources) to hire 20 different voice actors to give each race/gender a unique voiced protagonist, that alone would make a huge impact on making each race feel unique. Maybe too unique, even. This isn't me saying they should, though, and I'd appreciate if my side-thought doesn't turn this into another argument about the pros and cons of a voiced protagonist.

I'd rather choose a culturally specific background and go from there as opposed to being locked into minor quirks just because I choose a specific race, which may or may not be indicative as to how my character was brought up. That might fall into how Skills are set up in the beginning (I'm mostly okay with Attributes staying mostly the same across the board for the most part), and that's really all I think it should effect.

Half of the racial powers are completely bogus though, and would be better off being tied into cultural quirks if they're really not going to encompass some metaphysical characteristic of each race. I'd give each race one "raical" based power based on that concept, and being able to choose a few others from there at the players leisure. Seriously, its a crime that I can't play a Nordic Berserker when we know that they exist in the setting.

My focus in roleplaying is on the individual, not on the race. Restricting a race to certain classes or to wearing certain gear is an artificial gameplay mechanic, not a roleplaying mechanic.

I do like the idea that there are some differences, however. It seems appropriate that an Altmer would have a better aptitude for magic than an Orc and that an Orc would have a better aptitude for melee combat than an Altmer. But I don't think they should be defined by these aptitudes.

I like racial stats and powers. It makes for interesting builds and by extension RPs. Wish Imperials/Cyrods could get that huge Speech/Merch bonus of past games. Wasn't a fan of making them all Colovian Pelinal wannabes.

Why is it whenever this kind of thing is brought up people rush to the whole freedom thing immediately. It's like trying to discuss gun control in Texas.

A little bit of restriction isn't a bad thing. Restriction breeds creativity, not to mention it helps to make characters who actually feel different from one another, and sometimes even lets you play a character that has to overcome some of their natural deficiencies (I had a blast with my Orc mage in Morrowind, I don't care what the Telvanni say about him behind his back). I think the racial bonuses/penalties in Morrowind and Oblivion were pretty appropriate. They weren't nearly severe enough that you were forced into any specific race/class combos, nor were the bonuses/penalties anything that you couldn't overcome with some experience (just a few levels in most cases). The bigger problem is that they did away with attributes, which was a huge part of what made the races feel different. Skyrim still had racial boosts to certain skills, but it just wasn't nearly enough for any of the races to actually feel very different from one another.

Except the problem is they don't exist in-universe. The Summerset Altmer (Except not really if you examine their culture) might be magically inclined, sure, the Direnni Altmer are not. They focus on martial prowess and diplomacy, and are most famous for those two aspects of their society. The Nord's are obstinately different between the West and Old Holds, and that's not even bringing up culture sub-sets like the Nordic Witch-Warriors and the Skaal themselves, whose entire cultural focus is completely different from them all together. The Colovians and Nibenese eschew different strengths and virtues from one another, and the Breton's only being magical based is positively gamey when their even more diverse and mishmashed then the Cyrodiils and Dunmer!

The "restrictions" frankly are neither realistic depending on what culture your character is from or particularly interesting. The fact that the bonuses are so paltry in the long run is a good thing so its easy to circumvent and play our character however we want, meaning we the player don't have to work around something stupid because the game arbitrarily says "No no no! X equals Y! Da warriors can't be stronk in magick!"

The only real problem the games have with race is that they don't matter when interacting with characters or having anything special in the game quests available to them. Despite your character being potentially looked down upon because of your racial choice, its more of a flavor thing some NPC's give you rather then mattering at all. The dispositions remain mostly the same (in Skyrim), and the benefits to doing so are few and far between. THAT is the type of thing you the player should be taking into account and having the game react as such when choosing how to play your game, and not giving us one, singular option in what build this race might have within it, or making it harder to make a certain build work cuz reasons.

Well you have to admit, the Argonian racials are pretty disappointing.

Really? Where did you hear that?

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/de-rerum-dirennis state that their warriors and kings are the stuff of legend, and that the art of the wizard is among the "lesser known" aspects of Direnni culture and society. In game terms, they'd have more in common with the Imperials then that Altmer of Alinor. Naturally its still there, but as far as the game is concerned, much like the other smaller niches of each culture has, the Direnni would have a much different build starting out with a different subset of skills then the Altmer we have been playing in the series would have. Also, it makes sense to an extent. The Direnni left Summerset partially because of its rigid caste system, and most of their flock were farmers and the like. Unlike the popular notion that all Altmer on the Isles are adept at using magic, the lower castes (especially before Galerion came along) most likely never had the opportunity to properly train and use those skills.

It'd be like comparing the "Wood-Orcs" of Valenwood to their Stronghold/Orsinium counterparts, especially since the Orcs from Valenwood are noted to be just as fast and adept in living in Valenwood as the Bosmer are.

Dargor's got this right on. Race means very little in TES, beyond the prejudice of others. Tamriel's races are very much like those of the real world, superficial characteristics that mostly just influence how others judge you, but ultimately have little to no bearing on your innate qualities.

Culture is the defining factor in what you are exposed to or trained in, but even that has little to nothing to do with what you are GOOD at. That is an inborn, uniquely individual scale that is independant from either Race or Culture.

Imposing strong racial tendencies and characteristics doesn't add anything, gameplay wise, and severely hurts the world building and cultural representation in-universe. Even amongst the Great House Dunmer, there is a huge range of social inclinations and skillsets, and that's not counting the Ashlanders or non-Morrowind Dunmer. Boiling them (or any other race for that matter) down to a single identity for the sake of standard RPG trope doesn't do anyone any good.

More and more, I don't even think Racial Powers should be a thing.

This very much

Race, culture, social status, occupation prior to becoming an adventurer etc all affecting the starting character would be my ideal

We had it way back in the late 70s with Runequest. Seems like rpgs have gone backwards from what they achieved before crpgs became dominant

The racial stats had very little effect on gameplay. They made no restriction to any race taking any skill. Their egfect was very minor and very early on. It was more to do with adding background and uniqueness to each race. Supporting a sense of culture and evolved societies.

And it ended up having the opposite effect. Many people are now under the impression that ALL Dunmer are good with swords, ALL Altmer are mages, ALL Khajiit are thieves etc. It ruined the sense of culture and societies, and any nuance within the races.

+1 For background/class on generation over rigid racial boni. I'd much rather have race actually matter in-game beyond combat stats (which is one thing that bothered me about Skyrim--almost all the skills are combat-based).

Like, I disliked not being able to start out as a Professor of the School of Julianos in Oblivion cause Bretons have penalties to Agility, no exceptions. Or part of one of the many, many Knightly orders because of Endurance penalties meaning extra work to get Heavy Armor/Health going in spite of the fact that they're a fricking knight. Or a kind of Spinner for Bosmer because lol who needs Willpower, it's not like you're some sort of reality warper. I mean sure, you can pretend that they're actually terrible at their profession and their little adventure is what they needed to get on the right path but it just gets so old repeating the same background, y'know?

No one is saying "every" member of a race has to be specialists in the skills that are enhanced for them at the beginning. That is like saying every ancient Japanese person was a swordsman. That is just dumb to presume. Viking combat and daily life was however much different to that in Japan. As was that of a Mayan in Meso-America. That is more how I see racial skills. As a way of reflecting culture and society of a race. The same is with racial clothes and armor etc. If a rpg was made of ancient Earthly tribes, Japanese may get swordsman, medium and archery, while a Germanic may get heavy armor, sword, spear and axe. That wouldn't mean every member of Japan carried a sword or every Germanic carried an axe.

Reading into the lore books and looking at the equipment given in eso, I personally believe that it as though racial stats have been deliberately thrown out.
Every race is everything in equipment. Stats on armors etc are all pretty much on par. Races once associated with a certain skills are now better provided in equipment opposite to those previous given skills. Example is with races such as Altmer and Bretons who were previously had pure mage stats, now have some of the best looking fitted heavy armor. Starting in ESO Aldmeri Dominion gives you nothing but free Altmer heavy armor at the very start. Dunmer who had light armored / archer / mage stats are linked to ebony armor which is a top heavy armor. Even in Skyrim, all their racial armors were pretty much all heavy. Nords, who were given pure warrior stats and were up until Skyrim heavy armor experts, are more at home to more inferior light armors such as fur or have patchy looking heavy armor sets. Admittedly you aren't given Nordic mages robes when starting out in the Ebonheart Pact. Bretons who were always a race enriched in pure skills in older games and now we see them as the race most associated with knights, which kinda makes their previous mage based stats pointless. A selection of finely made armor choices being made available and racial stats in one-handed and block is more logical for a knight.

I do think racial stats will be lost in future games of TES.

But then we aren't looking at Race at all. Race would he like saying ALL Germanic people were. Vikings, or all Orientals were part of the Japanese Shogunate. You're talking about highlighting nuances within the varied culture of a race, but there's nothing unified enough about the Races themselves to warrant that kind of seperation. Hell , not even all Sax'hleel worship the Hist.

Race has no meaning or functional impact on stats. It should have social impact, but that's another issue entirely.

ESO's Racial characteristics are a non issue. It's an MMO, and one with a strong PvP element, and needs to adhere to certain balance rules. They can't have each race, iR their armour, carrying unique benefits because it causes problems with that balance. It should in no way he seen as what can or should be done in a single player game.

Once a day effects like racial powers are pretty pointless for me anyway.

Let me see should I put this power who only pops once a day into the shortkey slot or something I can use all the time.

It works better in an MMO with more predictable fights.

The problem with content tied to race is that you have to be very careful how you distribute it -- not very "be whoever you want" if so-and-so race has an easier time of it or has more content than some other race. Not to say that the race-restricted content has to be identical, merely that there has to be balance, or at least the semblance thereof. Say, a certain race could be better at dealing with the locals while another has a combat advantage. You can't stack the deck, though -- said combat advantage or whatever shouldn't be so strong that it makes the personable other race's "bonus" practically useless.

And don't forget that many choose their character's race for aesthetic reasons.

Racial powers in past games had a tendency towards awfulness. Skyrim's were a step in the right direction, but honestly I'm inclined to say that each race's power should be passive, since it's very easy to forget about active powers.

Skill bonuses made so little difference in past games. Now, a bonus to skill advancement would actually be interesting.