I was thrown off by the Argonians lack of poison resistance and sudden weakness to disease(in OB it was a 75% resistance, now it's only 50%).

Well they were nerfing OP powers I guess, even though the Orsimer have a ridiculous power now... Dunmer went from 75% fire resistance to 50%. But to remove poison resistance entirely from the Argonians just effs with the lore. The Argos should just have the poison resistance reduced. Not removed. Meh...don't mind me. I just really do not like the racials this time around or various reasons. One of them is that now summoning my ancestors for the Dunmer I am role playing is apparently impossible to do in game unless I call up a random ghost and pretend it was an ancestor summon <_< .

I can understand disliking the new racials. I don't think they go against lore at all though, the racials change pretty much every game, just mechanics representing racial traits. I rather like them this time around, I always felt the dunmer fire resistance was a little to high and the whole fire aura thing fits well into what's happened to morrowind...and let's face it, Summon Ancestor Guardian was bloody useless.

http://i.imgur.com/SlB1C.png

So Khajiits, Bosmer and Nords are the least magically inclined races? Redguards are the fifth least magically inclined race? Yeah...

Dunmer, Altmer, Argonians and Bretons are the least combat inclined races? Dunmer were feared for their balanced mix of the sword, bow and magic...pretty sure the Argonians are not completely lacking in combat skills...

WTF?

It is more the skills I don't like to be honest. Always thought of the skill bonuses as a cultural identifier to a small degree, but they do not reflect the cultures, as we know them at all, well this time around.

I know game mechanics trump lore but I thought I might as well point it out. This might all be pointless and the racials incorrectly portrayed in any case. I just thought Bethesda would pay more attention to their own lore.

But the racials DO break with the lore quite a bit you must admit. Argonians DO resist poison and diseases. They are a swamp race. It made sense for them to have disease and poison resistance. Why would the Hist take that away when they wanted to invade Morrowind which has plenty of poisonous critters of its own? Water breathing just added to the allure and made sense in a wet environment. Now the Redguards resist poison and don't resist disease? Altmer don't either yet Bosmer do? So much makes so little sense lore wise it is bothersome to some small degree. It is like they just didn't give a [censored]. The Lore makes or breaks this game for me. So I am a little worried in some of the direction they have been taking. I will literally forget this whole thing about 2 minutes out the gate of character creation though anyways lol.

I am through worrying about it though. Just gonna do what you all probably did a long while back. Chalk it up to gameplay mechanics.

Not gonna change anyone's mind,

But I always thought Bosmer were barbarians, as far as elves go. No magicka.
Redguards with new spell buffs? Maybe they're taking their history as sword-saints into account. lol Jedi.
Dunmer and Argonians always seemed like spellswords to me,
but in comparison to the Mannish warlovers, the two got nerfed by extension.

I dunno. I can handwave the skills. Not so much the resistances, until everyone gets their leaks and wikis straight.

Just want them to take their own lore seriously...rather they keep making money and thus making games though. I got over it after posting that last bit. Just wanted to raise some stank on it I guess.

200 years passed.

The cultures as you knew them are as gone as 19th century America. That's why these skill bonuses don't reflect Tamrielic culture as you know it.

Careful.

There are two questions here. Why did it change? and how would you explain that change?

The reason it changed are probably related to gameplay. I don't know what the results are exactly. But that's not really relevant here.

One way to explain those changes in lore would be by arguing that races are in part or in whole influenced by culture and that in the past two hundred years this has changed dramatically.

However then arguing that one possible explanation (for these changes in gameplay) is the actual cause of these changes in gameplay is circular. It would not be a circular argument if there were indeed changes to the 'personality' races. This may even be the case, but none are in evidence right now.

I think the skills were more a reflection of their natural affinities that they had developed and nurtured as a culture over time so long that it became ingrained in their make up. The whole Redguards with two magic school proficiencies is one of the hardest pills to swallow imo. Thought they hated magic...lol

I am ignoring the whole thing already...none of it fits in any way. Even given 200 years to 'change'.

You would think the Dunmer would be more combative than anything given they were likely fighting for the past 200 years mostly non stop.

Minotaur is right though. The past cultures really are dead and gone(going too far here lol). Hope the new Dunmer are just as interesting.

The reason for the Argonian lack of combat skill bonuses is probably due to the fact that there aren't any spears in Skyrim. That's the weapon they're best know for utilizing, if memory serves, so no spear; no bonuses.

There's a lot to dislike about the new bonuses though, that's true. Everything else aside, I can't help but think that making the Dunmer natural Nightblades instead of natural Spellswords is a step towards making them generic fantasy Dark Elves, which I loathe.

Technically, Raga have their own form of magicka that comes from within instead of through the radiation-bleeding from Atherius (im sure I misspelled it.). They dislike Nurda-hi, or Eastern Magicka. I believe Ator had his own wizard and it was a Yokudan witch who helped Cyrus put Ator's soul back into his body which then found its way into his sword.

Well yeah there is that. but then why was this never represented before and why were they portrayed in the games as this race that is incredibly distrustful of magic of any kind? Not like all the Redguards have an affinity for magic, especially the radiation magic from Aethurius that is the type of magic primarily used in Tamriel. The closest thing I can remember is the whole Ansei thing. Basically powerful swordmagic that was mostly lost to the Redguards as techniques were forgotten. By the 4E most of it would was hinted at being forgotten if I am not mistaken. Cyrus was around at the end of the 2nd century as well. That is quite a bit of time for what magic they do have to be gone right?

Given how I feel about "evolution" and TES, I'd be inclined, reluctantly, with ProwProw. It's not so much that it's change, but that I dislike the change.

I can perhaps imagine that the Dunmer in Skyrim perhaps could be, as suggested, more Nightblades than Spellswords. It does seem to make since given their past, and what they would aspire to. Actually, back in Morrowind, I got that feeling, too, that they'd be evolving to that type.

As for Altmer, while it makes me irritated, considering I play practically only Altmer, in which case it should be a positive, I feel like it's not the same,l ol. But again with ProwProw, things change. And I could see variables that could lead to Altmer losing their natural weakness.

Argonian? What is this? I don't even... As for Redguards, it's not surprising, either, considering the steps towards it that we saw in Obv. Nord? Understandable. Imperial? Erm. Disagree. That sounds more like a Breton. Either a mistake in previous posts or devs. (CBA to look up information myself atm)

Generally, I am not impressed. But I do have to svck it up and also think back to the arguments I made toward change in TES in the lore section. Perhaps the only one that utterly does not make sense is why Arggies would lose any immunity. That boggles my noggle.

IMO, this change is way too radical to be evolution/change in culture...

It kinda makes sense that Dunmer are more stealth oriented though as they have to hide from the Argonians that slaughtered them

But now with all seriousness, I always imagined Dunmers with agile dualists (as in - fighting with a sword in each hand) and supporting themselves with Destruction and Conjuration :/ Less stealthy and more combat oriented :/

I always imagined Argonians as heavy magic tanks and Khajiits and Bosmer are WAY too similar :/

I though Orcs or Red Guard should have been 100% combat oriented and Imperials more combat oriented than magicka oriented :/

I understand the Nords' orientation towards stealth as they are barbaric and therefore need to be stealthy when hunting, I understand that.

I never played an Altmer or a Breton so I cannot say anything, but they seem the most correct, although I always imagined Bretons as Paladins instead of Imperials tat should be more of an average 33.33%, 33.33%, 33.33% class :/

I imagine though that this would have a HUGE effect on the beginning because each race would be so different in the beginning (except of Khajiit and Bosmer though :/) but as we will progress in the game it would be less visible as we can decide what we want to be skilled in, and what would spending some time of levelling a 'non-major' beginning skill 5 or 10 times compared to the hundreds of hours spent on doing other things? :celebration:

Massive change to my usual race, the Dunmer. I like to play a light armor swords and spells kind of character and Dunmer were always perfect for that because of their blade and destruction bonuses. Looks like this time the Redguard are the way to go for that type of character while the Dunmer have been turned into sneaky mages.

The Imperials still have voice of the emperor, so they are still smooth talkers despite no speechcraft bonus.

Are people forgetting that the bonuses, while nice/annoying depending on your view, aren't even that significant? A few points in Destruction is something you can EASILY grab on your way to your first major city (if not even more).

But as has been said, these things change every game. Just because you don't like the changes this time dosen't mean that they're not taking their own lore seriously, you seem to be trying to imply that this is an indication of the developers "selling out" or otherwise betraying the series. Don't be so immature, it's impossible to please everyone so just accept the fact that this is nothing more than a matter of personal preference and stop trying to make it something it isn't.

The skills are all pretty bad, but the one that really burns me is Khajiit. Night-Eye, great! .... For 60 seconds a day. Not so great. Just strikes me as plain stupid.

Was not implying they were selling out or betraying the series. Way to inject your own thinking into my own. I was more implying that they had other things to think about, like game mecahnics so the game would be funner, than making a small feature like the racials fit the lore properly. I just find the jumps baffling this time around and would like to know their reasoning for the changes. And I am not the only one who dislikes these racials. Quite a few people have been complaining about them, look at responses in this thread. Some people are just surprised. Some people are livid. Me, I am just trying to see if anyone has some GOOD reasoning for the changes.

I doubt Bethesda really even thinks the racials really are supposed to be completely representative of the cultures and natural affinities of each race. If they were I am sure the Dunmer would of had conjuration bonuses in the past. I just liked to think they did. This is more of, I guess, a whole 'holy crap we were wrong' thing. I don't buy into the 200 year thing. But I do understand that the racials change each series, but I find these changes to be kind of way out of left field.

Do not leap to conclusions and call me immature. I have an opinion. Opinions do not mean immaturity. I could go the whole, 'leaping to conclusions is immature route' but I do not think you are immature. Likely just irritated. Again I will reiterate. I brought this up because I thought it was worthwhile to point out. I wanted to see if anyone had any good reasoning for it, specifically on the Lore forums because I thought it both appropriate and I respect the Lore knowledge of many of the people on this sub-forum and wanted there opinions on it. Not because I hate these racials so much I am actually mad about it. :shakehead:

Be cool. He's just saying the changes are there, that they're significant departure from established custom and that he does not like this. No reason to attack him personally on it. Save it for Skyrim General.



I'm not even buying it myself. It's hand waving.

You're right, I shouldn't have been so hasty to make such a harsh judgement. Sorry about that, I just saw that you said "I wish they'd take their own lore seriously" and I made an incorrect assumption.
I suppose I don't really mind because i'm used to the idea of the racials changing all the time and so in my mind they remain firmly in the "gameplay mechanics" category. Although I don't see why the dev team feel the need to keep changing them. So yeah, sorry for any offense caused. :angel:

Don't see that much problem with the racials:

- bodies of skyrim argonians have to deal with the cold (and lizards don't like cold) thus weakening their immunity
- Imperials are no longer diplomats due to their reputation being destroyed (due to becoming puppets to Talmor) and due to losing their pride (again for the same reason), all which affects their persuasive powers (and from what I have seen, they are more brutish now than charismatic). Imperials also always had some respect for Battlemages and it is not to be surprised that more of them are following that path, especially since the Talmor showed how far magic users can get
- Dark Elves are bound to change due to radical stuff that happened. Once a prideful nation is now a bunch of refugees everywhere, more used to surviving as thieves and assassins than prideful warriors and spellsword. The fall of Fire Resistance makes sense: the cold Solstheim and Skyrim are now their homelands, not the ashy Morrowind.
- Redguards being softer on magic might be explained by the fact that they seem to have become more friendly with Bretons (the last I heard of those two was the fact that they both happily united to destroy Orsinium) who are natural magicians. Also, as seen in TES2 Breton and Redguard nobility do marry with one another

Well, these are few explanations that seem obvious and there is also the fact that not every member of a race is the same. Take Khajiit for example: they have MANY subraces but in every game we only see one of them. Actually, why is nobody ever complaining about the fact that there is always one Khajiit race in every game? That is a far bigger problem that this.

Different province, different population, so different average racial characteristics. Plus 200 years of drift.

I'd expect any Argonian who had no immunity to poison to move away from the swamps. Apparently they moved to Skyrim. I always imagined the Argonians being reptiles force-evolved toward human form by the Hist. They've assumed most of the shape by now, so why not more of the chemistry? In some terrestrial reptiles, temperature of incubation determines gender, so might colder conditions affect immunity more easily?

My opinion on the matter seems to have been summarized better than I could've done myself. I wish I could contribute more to the conversation than "What he said" but oh well.

I will clarify that I'm not 100% on board with all the changes. I think my beloved dunmer should have stayed a well balanced spellsword archetype for example. On the other hand I highly approve of the direction that the ancestor power seems to have taken. Most importantly though I wish it to be clear that just because I may prefer some of the individual abilities featured in previous games dosen't mean that I think the new ones are worse in any objective sense. A few just aren't my cup of tea. Finally as was mentioned by Seeker; they are minor issues in the grand scheme of things, a dunmer battle-mage (for example) could still be as effective as one of any other race only requiring a very slightly increased amount of time to get there. Considering the amount of time we're likely to spend on our characters anyway this already meager time-sink starts to look very tiny indeed.

I'm just curious. Why don't you?

Sixty years ago, the Chinese were regarded as technologically backwards politically chaotic agrarian weaklings. Now look at them. America used to be defined by its policy of non-intervention. Now look at us. Before the Franco-Prussian war, the stereotype was that Germans were poor workers, spent all their time relaxing, and couldn't fight worth [poopy]. Before WWI, France was a feared military power. Stereotypes, and the realities they're based on, change dramatically over time. Why do you think this wouldn't be true in Tamriel?