Rags to Riches

Post » Tue Oct 12, 2010 2:23 am

My favourite part of the TES games is usually the first couple of hours. I like that I have budget my money and get so few arrows that I run out in the middle of nowhere, forcing me to sneak and fight my way back to town my a broken rusty dagger (not to mention now I can just fast travel back, which really grants no sense of a risk/reward system). That I have to sleep out in the forest because I can afford to stay at an inn. But, once I get a few hours in, I don't have to worry about that, I can run around with hundreds of arrows (I know they fixed the "arrow economy" for Skyrim), I can check into an inn for nothing, seriously 10 gold is it? I just got out of jail, I shouldn't be living the life after a few hours.

As much as I think the rate at which you earn money should be decreased to match a typical playthrough of the game, so you'd start getting genuinely rich around maybe 30 hours, but I know they need to appeal to those who want to get in, level up, and be rich within a few hours.

Anyway, what I'm saying, is you know how hardcoe mode in New Vegas was going to be cool, then after about 10 minutes you had so much food and water, you didn't have to worry about it ever again. I think you should constantly, or at least for a longer period of time, have to manage your money, and maybe put up with crappy arrows, bad food, or that really shady inn every so often. In other words, less gold for quests, and higher prices on everything else.
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Mark
 
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Post » Tue Oct 12, 2010 9:15 am

Agreed.

The first 10-20 hours of the game (at least) should be about living rough and surviving. You should be too poor to afford anything beyond the very basics, and too weak to be slaying dragons left right and centre.

If after 7 or 8 hours i'm able to buy decent items and kill dragons with ease, i'm going to be very disappointed.
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Princess Johnson
 
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Post » Tue Oct 12, 2010 8:24 am

The answer is inflation.
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Neliel Kudoh
 
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Post » Mon Oct 11, 2010 11:10 pm

Absolutely agree

I love those first tentative steps into the game world, where every septim has to be eked out, and you never have enough to do what you really would like to do. Scavenging for every bit of junk, to sell to a trader for one measly piece of gold is a really enjoyable part of the early game that is completely negated once you get rolling in money later on.

I'd like it if you were kept poor longer, and there was a gradual sense of building up wealth, status, equipment and power. But, unfortunately, I agree with the OP, that they seem to want to cater for those short attention span people that want to find an incredibly valuable gem in the first cave and be able to buy the best armour in the game after half an hour :confused:
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Michael Russ
 
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Post » Tue Oct 12, 2010 6:03 am

sounds interesting but I doubt that beth wiill implent it , trough one can hope ...

the morrowind system was nice ...
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Katey Meyer
 
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Post » Mon Oct 11, 2010 7:14 pm

This is one of the issues that always bothers me.

I hope at least we have a hard-core mode in which the economy in the empire is collapsing, where all the normal people wear near-rags, use the used and rusty weapons and only bosses and ring leaders have decent gear.

Good loot should be hard to come by and merchants should only have mid-level to low level items, and should bargain hard, and the players early hopes for getting decent gear should be only as quest rewards, and the like.

Only later in the game as you gradually develop your character and his/her gear, then you should be able to venture to the higher level areas, where there are more danger and better reward for adventuring, but even in those places, you should not become rich overnight and the better loot should be still hard to acquire.

In the end, the quest rewards should always be the best place to acquire better gear, especially at the beginning.
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Iain Lamb
 
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Post » Tue Oct 12, 2010 7:46 am

The answer is inflation.
I remember a section on this in the 1st edition ADnD dungeon masters' guide, likened the effect of adventurers bringing a dragon's hoard back to town to the Alaskan gold rush. IIRC (long time ago, the book, not the gold rush), the gold devalued all currency, and for example one egg would cost a whole dollar, and a simple pick or shovel would be twenty or thirty dollars,well in excess of anywhere else. So this idea is definitely not new to rpgs. You bring loads of gold and magic items into an economy, the gold is worth less, makes perfect sense.
The one thing that really gets me is the price of noble clothing. I understand they didn't want the player to raid a few wardrobes, and end up with 1000s of Septims, but surely clothes for the rich and powerful should be very expensive. Seems stupid to come out of the sewers, sell some rusty armour, and be able to afford 50 dresses fit for a Duchess.
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helliehexx
 
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Post » Tue Oct 12, 2010 9:53 am

i too like the start of the game. where i run into a house cut their throat then take everything that isent nailed down
go to a fence and sell it, i remember robbing entire towns blind

but then after a few hours you can just kill a bandit and take his armour which is easily worth more than a houses junk
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Kayla Bee
 
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Post » Tue Oct 12, 2010 9:22 am

The answer is this... play the way you want. if you dont want to sell a bunch of crap to get money so you can buy those aorry and making your life easier then dont. dont say things llike *nerd voice* "this should be this way and that way and my way is the best way blah blah blah" PLay how you want this is a RPG if you want to be a pore sob who lives in the wood.. then play a poor sob who live in the woods
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kelly thomson
 
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Post » Tue Oct 12, 2010 5:41 am

The answer is this... play the way you want. if you dont want to sell a bunch of crap to get money so you can buy those aorry and making your life easier then dont. dont say things llike *nerd voice* "this should be this way and that way and my way is the best way blah blah blah" PLay how you want this is a RPG if you want to be a pore sob who lives in the wood.. then play a poor sob who live in the woods

Have you heard of the term "irony"?
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Danel
 
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Post » Tue Oct 12, 2010 6:39 am

As has been the case with Oblivion, Morrowind, FO3, FNV and every Bethesda game (along with probably almost every other RPG released in the past 10 years), in Skyrim it is almost guaranteed that it will be too easy to become wealthy.

I suppose it has to do with adjustments to make it convenient for those who might grow bored with the game if it is not easy to become rich. There are sliders for combat difficulty, but no sliders to make the economic aspects more challenging.

Personally, I feel that RPGs become boring when it is too easy to become rich. I like games that really make you struggle and save up over a long time to buy that low level spell. The only way for me to get this experience is by installing mods like Enhanced Economy for Oblivion or Expensive Wasteland for FO3/FNV, which lets you increase all merchant prices by 5x or as high as 10x.

This makes it possible to continue the same feeling you have at the beginning of the game, since even at later stages, powerful items are 5x or 10x more expensive than they would have been in the vanilla version, so it is still a struggle to save up to afford better items.

Will certainly be interesting to see how this fits in with the more dynamic economy features confirmed for Skyrim.
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Betsy Humpledink
 
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Post » Tue Oct 12, 2010 11:46 am

The answer is this... play the way you want. if you dont want to sell a bunch of crap to get money so you can buy those aorry and making your life easier then dont. dont say things llike *nerd voice* "this should be this way and that way and my way is the best way blah blah blah" PLay how you want this is a RPG if you want to be a pore sob who lives in the wood.. then play a poor sob who live in the woods



100% agreed.

Too many people these days want the game to play them.
I really don't understand the whole "I don't want to, but I can so I will" mind set. If you did it willingly shush...
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LADONA
 
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Post » Tue Oct 12, 2010 12:09 pm

Yeah I don't like this effect either, although if level scaling has indeed become less prominent, bandits shouldn't be wearing full sets of whatever the current high-end armor is for your character and that should remedy the problem to a certain extent.
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James Wilson
 
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Post » Tue Oct 12, 2010 7:17 am

This seems to be pretty much universal in RPGs, at the start, you'd be struggling for ten gold pieces, but by the end of the game, whatever you want can be yours and it still wouldn't put a dent in your hoard of gold, but that's not the problem, because I WANT to feel like my efforts have paid off by the end of the game, the problem is that in a lot of games, this happens too quickly. Though in the Elder Scrolls, I'd say the best experience is usually from the early game (By which I mean iron or steel armor level of early, not "A few more gold pieces and I can by that iron dagger and those dirty rags I've been saving up for." early) because you're strong enough to actually DO things and take advantage of the "freedom" the game promises rather than being mauled to death by rats the moment you set foot out of town, but still aren't so strong that you can do anything you want without effort and don't need to worry about finding anything too difficult for you. Though this was more pronounced in Morrowind than Oblivion since the way level scaling worked in Oblivion meant that you never needed to be terrified of rats but even at high levels could still be threatened by enemies, though just removing the late game section entirely would not be a solution as that removes anything worth striving for and the feeling that you've accomplished something later on, but through increasing the difficulty of some things, Bethesda can extend that period of not being able to do everything you want without effort. If I see a good weapon on sale in stores, I want to save money for it, and if I find something else I want to spend my money on while saving my money for something more expensive, I want to seriously debate whether I should get the cheaper thing, thus setting myself back in the proccess of saving money, or if I should hold off on getting it. Basically, to the economy, one should apply the same logic as to other aspects of the game, you should need effort to be able to get the best items on sale, and such efforts should pay off. A good level of challenge with worthy rewards being offered in return is the key to delivering suitably challenging and also rewarding gameplay, this applies to the economy as well.

Good loot should be hard to come by and merchants should only have mid-level to low level items, and should bargain hard, and the players early hopes for getting decent gear should be only as quest rewards, and the like.


The moment you decide that "merchants should only have mid to low level items" you render any attempt to make earning gold difficult utterly, 100%, completely and entirely pointless and meaningless, except maybe in the early parts of the game. What people often seem to forget is that the issue is not simply that gold is too easy to acquire, large amounts of gold are purely cosmetic if there's nothing worth buying with them, therefore, some merchants SHOULD sell high level items for high prices, for the difficulty of acquiring gold to be relevant there must first be things worth saving up that gold for, why should it matter how much gold I have there's nothing to spend it on?

I actually wish there were more RPGs which have items worth buying, which would probably actually make a lot more sense when you think about it, after all, high quality armor and weapons don't grow naturally in caves and ruins, people have to make them, and people who make such items aren't going to go around the dungeons of the world and hide them in locked chests for adventurers to loot, they're going to sell them to high paying customers, you know, the thing that merchants are supposed to do? Now, of course, this may not apply to items that aren't made by normal smithes, like Daedric armors, though even for those things, you could justify merchants selling them by saying that the player isn't the only adventurer who might loot dungeons and sell the loot, and after buying those things, rather than hoarding them, merchants would probably want to sell them to other people who might be interested. Now, obviously, not every merchant should sell high level items, but I'd actually like to see a few merchants selling high priced items that are actually worth their price (As opposed to those overpriced enchanted items some merchants in Oblivion had that were mostly based on low level base items making them effectively worthless by the time you could afford to buy them.) or maybe something like that smith in Tribunal who could make custom armor for you, although in his case, aside from the adamantium armor I'd usually have already found everything he could make in normal loot well before I could actually have him make it, and in any case, such services would likely be less useful when the game has smithing as a skill.

The one thing that really gets me is the price of noble clothing. I understand they didn't want the player to raid a few wardrobes, and end up with 1000s of Septims, but surely clothes for the rich and powerful should be very expensive. Seems stupid to come out of the sewers, sell some rusty armour, and be able to afford 50 dresses fit for a Duchess.


Morrowind handled this better I'd say. While expensive clothes weren't exactly worth nearly as much as high level armors, high quality clothes were at least worth enough to be worth stealing, it was actually profitable to rob nobles, which I hope is something Skyrim can bring back. It's not like this would unbalance the game if it was designed well as stealing things still takes effort, you have to break into a house, avoid getting caught, get the items, and then get out and sell them, combat doesn't have to be the only activity in the game that can have worthwhile rewards.
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Sarah Edmunds
 
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Post » Tue Oct 12, 2010 4:59 am

Well so far for my whine ...

But a highwayman begging you for 100 goldpieces, dressed up in a full glass armour set with a enchanted battle axe doesn't make much sense if you ask me, since his armour is by far more worth than 100 gold pieces ...

but so far for my rant ...
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Soph
 
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Post » Tue Oct 12, 2010 4:46 am

This seems to be pretty much universal in RPGs, at the start, you'd be struggling for ten gold pieces, but by the end of the game, whatever you want can be yours and it still wouldn't put a dent in your hoard of gold, but that's not the problem, because I WANT to feel like my efforts have paid off by the end of the game, the problem is that in a lot of games, this happens too quickly.


At whatever point that moment happens, the game instantly becomes boring for me.

If I'm so rich that I can buy anything I want, I want to stop playing because there is no point in collecting loot and amassing wealth anymore.

This remedied for my only with the help of mods that make everything a lot more expensive (and make the selling price to merchants much lower).
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Lew.p
 
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Post » Mon Oct 11, 2010 9:44 pm

At whatever point that moment happens, the game instantly becomes boring for me.

If I'm so rich that I can buy anything I want, I want to stop playing because there is no point in collecting loot and amassing wealth anymore.

This remedied for my only with the help of mods that make everything a lot more expensive (and make the selling price to merchants much lower).


So, you don't want to progress through the game at all, you don't want to be rewarded for your efforts?

It really seems like allot of people mistake TES for The Sims.
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Mario Alcantar
 
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Post » Tue Oct 12, 2010 12:02 am

So, you don't want to progress through the game at all, you don't want to be rewarded for your efforts?

It really seems like allot of people mistake TES for The Sims.


I don't think you understand what I'm saying.

I love to progress through the game I just find it extremely boring if the progression grinds to a halt because there is no more point to collecting wealth.

By installing mods, that make everything a lot more expensive, the early stages are much more challenging to survive.

The later stages are also more challenging and fun because there is still something you want to strive for to save up for in order to buy that really expensive, awesome and powerful magic item. Only instead of 1000 septims, I have to save up 10,000 septims, etc.

I just never want the fun part to stop (in other words the point where money has no more value). If I wanted to go to that point I could just type player.additem gold 10000000. That is very boring to me. If there is still something I want to buy on the horizon, then raiding and looting retains its quaint charm intact.
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~Sylvia~
 
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Post » Tue Oct 12, 2010 2:49 am

Yeah I understand your point. But really, everything has its limit.
Not everyone is going to spend six months getting to the point you do, the developers have to cater to the 80% of users who aren't that hardcoe.
If mods work for you then thats awesome, its something brilliant that has been implemented by Bethesda.
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Matt Gammond
 
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Post » Tue Oct 12, 2010 5:35 am

I'm probably all alone here, looks like it anyway, but I actually always had a hard time getting money. I mean it took a very long time to buy my first house (so long as I didn't shoot an arrow into some ingredients and make some expensive potions) and of course once I did buy the house I was broke again, I scavenged most of my equipment from opponents (I kept almost everything. I put them in barrels and what not so that could be part of my money troubles)
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Tracy Byworth
 
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Post » Mon Oct 11, 2010 11:27 pm

The speed at which you can gain wealth in both OB and FO3 were two-fold in my opinion:

1.) it was way too easy to accumulate free found loot that either had a very high value, or you were able to find nearly everything you needed . . . so that you didn't have to purchase much from the merchants. (And joining any of the guilds in OB, meant that you had constant access to things like free potions.)

2.) the barter/trade system was broken in both games. Unless you have a high Mercantile/Barter skill, the mark up on items should be very high (and what you receive when you sell an item should be only a small percentage of its value).

Many people are against Needs (eating, drinking, and sleeping) but, if done properly, keeping your Needs satisfied can burn up a lot of coin . . . just like in real life.
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Klaire
 
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Post » Tue Oct 12, 2010 12:35 am

100% agreed.

Too many people these days want the game to play them.
I really don't understand the whole "I don't want to, but I can so I will" mind set. If you did it willingly shush...


Shouldn't people, when playing videogames, play against the game and not against themselves, though? There's little to no sense of accomplishment to be had if you always know that you win if you move you pinkyfinger half and inch to the left, and thus the overall experience cheapens and suffers. The game should never, by default, rely on the players willingness to avoid getting better or his/her willingess to use selfimposed rules. Never. That's an unnecessary out-of-game burden which detracts from the experience -- that's not to say one shouln't do so if one wishes (there's always a way to gimp yourself), but it shouldn't be forced to the player.
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Alyesha Neufeld
 
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Post » Tue Oct 12, 2010 12:07 am

Shouldn't people, when playing videogames, play against the game and not against themselves, though? There's little to no sense of accomplishment to be had if you always know that you win if you move you pinkyfinger half and inch to the left, and thus the overall experience cheapens and suffers. The game should never, by default, rely on the players willingness to avoid getting better or his/her willingess to use selfimposed rules. Never. That's an unnecessary out-of-game burden which detracts from the experience -- that's not to say one shouln't do so if one wishes (there's always a way to gimp yourself), but it shouldn't be forced to the player.

:nods:
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Louise Andrew
 
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Post » Tue Oct 12, 2010 2:13 pm

It is absolutely ridiculous and awesome how much money you made in Oblivion. I could make 5,000 gold with a snap of the fingers and an hour's effort I hope that's changed in Skyrim with a couple of things that I hope are done.

1. No more infinite money, Lets face it how realistic is it for a merchant to have infinite money. In Oblivion you could sell 50,000 gold worth of items to the same merchant. I'm hoping for a set amount of money like in Fallout 3 and Morrowind for a merchant like 500-1500 gold and that number increasing as you level up to a max around 8000.

2. Have new items instead of the same items. In Oblivion the merchants got new items as you leveled but they were still the same. I'm hoping for a different set of items every couple of days. I'm not asking a jeweler to start selling Claymores but I wouldn't mind a different variety in items this time around.

3. A profound impact on the store if you stole from them. Remember in Fallout 3 when you did the Roy Phillips quest and you opened the safe of that one store owner, what did she do afterwards she closed down. I don't know if I want that to happen but I wouldn't mind some type of consequence like increase in prices for that store or the town stores in general if you stole from them.

4. More places to sell stolen items, This seriously ticked me off in Oblivion. I understood why they did it but it still was ridiculous. I hope for more places that we can sell stolen items outside of the thieves guild or it's equal in Skyrim.

5. Reduce the price of the equipments or other items, I think this might help too with money control. Over amounts of Glass and Daedric is the main reason why your character in Oblivion has 1 million gold with little to no effort. There is some effort because you have to raid a bunch of dungeons but you can easily make 10,000 or higher in those dungeons. Fallout 3 was able to keep money down because the amount of each item was low.
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Bad News Rogers
 
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Post » Tue Oct 12, 2010 12:40 am

I agree

5 hours into Oblivion, i get so rich. Id rather it takes like 30 hours for me to get say 5,000 gold (or whatever the currency will be). There should be chests at the end of dungeons with very hard bosses (like legendary deathclaw in new vegas) which offer like 200 gold or something.
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Rob Davidson
 
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