Oooh, that does sound like a good idea!

I couldn't help always feeling lonely after somebody gets killed in whatever way and the town just feels that much more empty. It'd really help with role-playing too!

And they could be in a random faction, or have random jobs. So some people would be Mage's Guild members, while others would work in the Castle, while others would be Brewers, Farmers, Etc.

I'd like to see more of this in RPGs, together with other features that make the gameworld really look alive (like the wars between countries originally planned in Daggerfall).

It's really a pity that most RPGs, even the greatest ones, ultimately fail in depicting a truly dynamic world, in which you feel that something could happen even without the player being involved.

A scheduling system (done well, like in Ultima VII) is a good start, but I'd also like to see things like cities being destroyed or raided (like in the third chapter of the indie RPG Avernum, where the world perpetually changes during the war), other parties/individual beings doing quests on their own (Daggerfall was meant to have this; the only RPG in which I've seen this implemented is Wizardry VII, where you have NPC who are actually pursuing their own schedules, travelling, fighting and doing things while you're playing, simply awesome).

Wouldn't it be cool if you simply decided not to take an quest to defeat someone because you didn't want to and then finding later that he's been killed by a NPC? That could even be done without coding an awesomely reacting AI, but simply through clever scripting: Daggerfall had something of this (the rumors that appeared after you failed a quests, but unfortunately it falls short of depicting the actual consequences - for instance, sometimes you get the rumor that a queen/king has died and has been replaced, but this has no effect whatsoever on the game.

Also my dream RPG, as already said by Martut, would include the ability to take on a job/profession and carry it over, maybe being an apprentice for someone, then gradually gaining skill and finally being able to open your own shop (which, by the way, is another great feature that is unfortunately implemented very rarely in a RPG)

Actually, most of Oblivion's dungeons WERE randomly generated, and then cleaned up by hand before being included in the game. That's why they sometimes have weird dead-ends, bizarre twists that serve no purpose, and all sort of other "pointless" aspects to their layout. If those weren't what you found "funny", then I don't know what you're talking about. Hand cleaning only got rid of the "serious" flaws, not all of the "mediocre" points. It didn't help that most of the tile sets only had one or two versions of some pieces, so every third or fourth stair in every single ruined castle would have a broken stone in the same spot, for instance.

Random generation during development (NOT at the start of your game) could be used to "fill" large areas of forest, create blocks of routine peasant housing, and add other "routine" things in quantity that aren't important to the overall story or quests. It's not the "perfect" solution, but beats having either big empty spaces or a shrunken map to fit the budget and time allowance that the developers are forced to work within. In a "perfect" world, with an unlimited budget and thousands of artists willing and able to work on the project, you could have hand-placed content on a map 5X the size of Cyrodiil. The universe being what it is, we're stuck with some form of compromise, and I'd much rather see a bit of "intelligent" use of randomized placement to allow for more total content, but not at the expense of a hand-placed "feel".

We're not yet at the point where a totally randomly generated game world can be created each time, and still maintain any sort of quality. Maybe in another decade or three....

No, Oblivion's dungeons were not randomly generated.

Not read the whole thread but what the hey...

I'd love something akin to what's in Dwarf Fortress but not quite as comprehensive. A world generator that you run when you wish, this creates the game world for you to play in. You can keep it to play through multiple times if you wish or create as many as you like and play different characters in different builds. Basically you can save a build and play in it as often as you wish. Things like dungeons could perhaps be generated on the fly to reduce the size of the initial generation but saved to that build once created, I guess make it an option.

I'd like it to have some options, think setting up a game of Civilization here, where you can set some variables for the jaggedness of the terrain, the overriding weather type(s), the level of danger in the wilderness, overall size of the place etc etc.

I think it'd be best to have mostly hand crafted cities/towns/villages/important locations with some random content just to make them interesting. These landmarks should remain relative to each other within the randomly generated world. So village X is always somewhere north of town Y but as the stuff in between is random you won't know exactly where it is until you go look.

There should be some simple random quests that send you off to find/retrieve/kill stuff. Maybe have those as simple jobs advertised on a board at the guild HQ or some such. Still need a lot of hand crafted quests to ensure quality. No reason why the hand crafted ones couldn't have some random content though. So go to dungeon Z, which is randomly placed, has 2 levels randomly generated but has a certain portion hand crafted in which the quest objective might be.

:shrug: I think you get the idea, have a good deal of hand crafted content and attempt to mix it as seamlessly as possible with random stuff to flesh it out and avoid repetitive environments.

So there's my 2 drakes on the topic.


-kwm

What I really dont like is the fact that you dont get a sense of "Ah, so this is Cyrodil" or "Ah, so this is Vvanderfell"
That kind of "Suspension of disbelief" is impossible if everytime you start a new game in what is supposed to be the same region, everything is different.

But then again im not a power-gamer, and power-gamers might have no problem with this...
;_;

:huh:

Is that some sort of insult? What has powergaming got to do with wanting to explore and see new places and have some variation in your game after the umpteenth play through?

What I'd like the random generator to be able to do is basically:

I design some nice village or town, and plop it onto the landscape somewhere where it isn't near any other "constant" parts, then make some major NPCs, give them a story line and a quest or three, and then tell the generator "Go ahead, see how you alter the landscape around so that the town fits in seamlessly, oh - and also generate those 50 other semi-generic NPCs, shopkeepers, farmers and the like, and put me three goblin mines somewhere around, I don't care where, just do it, thanks." and then go off to a nice evening at the cinema, come back and start the game and begin exploring my own creation.

If you added random generation to landscaping, you'd essentially be taking the few unique things about landscapes and scattering them amongst the games.

That perfect little pond you discovered with a beautiful weeping willow looming over it and the lilies floating lazily on the surface wouldn't be there for the next person who runs by and just sees a big rock.

You couldn't share your "perfect parts" of Tamriel, because they'd be only existent to you. Sure it would create a "This beauty is mine alone to hold" sort-of feeling, but that would quickly diminish after you realize that even if you were the first to discover it, and the only one to ever discover it. You couldn't share in-game locations with eachother, it'd mess with quests, lore, and mods, and it would also be very difficult to sort out in the end because there are many people who wouldn't like to have the game different every time.

What happens if your computer gets wiped "Well, there goes my favorite location."

I remember specifically in Animal Crossing for the Wii (Yes, I know I'm a very casual gamer in some areas, but I don't even play Wii anymore), they had random generation of terrain. And while it was fun, when I visited other people's towns I'd become stricken with envy or a "lost" feeling because I'd miss my town so much because I liked it the way it was.

No matter how many times you visited an area, you'd never get to "learn" it because it'd be different every time. You couldn't be confident that anything would ever be the same, and after a long-long time of it, it would get tedious. "Okay, I need to pick 10 blueberries. Oh wait, blueberries don't spawn here on this character. There goes my favorite berry patch."

Things wouldn't be the same. And I'm a big advocate for change, but things can sometimes hold a symbolic meaning that just can't be fulfilled by randomly generated things. You can tell when work's been put into something, and when a game company pushed a button and let a computer do everything for them. I can imagine developers that make the landscapes probably know better than a computer that if they put a hill or a tree there it will block the view of a city. Or if it should be very difficult to enter a cavern in the woods because there's a 2 foot gap between two trees.

I like the idea for some things, like random NPCs that are just stopping by the province and are traveling, or maybe even quests for us to go once we reach the "top of the food chain", but when it has to do with replacing hand-made, human things to something that can be made much more quickly... I don't like it as much.

It's kind of like having robotic voice acting to generate interesting dialogue, I mean, sure things would be more interesting, but it would lack the "human" element of it for me.

Its not an insult. Its just the truth. Powergamers tend to care very little for immersion and such things. Hence why I say 'it might not be an issue for powergamers'
Nevermind just read what Martut said.

Oh my god, this discussion is over. . .

A random generation feature which provides you with the option of playing on the "Standard" world map or a "Randomly Generated" world map at the beginning of each new game.

If you want you can fill the "Random Generator" with all sorts of options and drop-down menus to dictate how un-random you want your randomness to be.

:icecream:

I'm very much into immersion and definitely not a powergamer, thus the raised eyebrow, sorry. I agree with some of the points posted but not completely with others.

Different strokes for different folks.

No biggie, is interesting to talk about it though.


:)
-kwm

Actually, I'd go further as I'd really like something as comprehensive as the DF world generator. In particular, I was absolutely amazed by how the author was able to create a dynamic world which could evolve on its own depending on climate/natural events/societies and I'm still eager to see how this will evolve, in the (far?) future, when he'll implement all those features which will allow the player to have a lasting effect on the world (like the ability to run your own kingdom).

Then it wouldn't be the Elder Scrolls. You just want a 3d generic sandbox.

Actually, it would be "Do I start the world with the same seed as last time (so I can visit all my favourite locations), with the default seed from Bethesda (so I can share my spots with others more easily), or just generate a new one with a random new seed and see where it brings me?"

Too bad no "3d generic sandbox" world comes even comes to being as dynamic as I was describing. Also, isn't vanilla Oblivion a generic sandbox already?

With a mix of randomization and hand placement you can have those tranquil ponds and grottos and "perfect parts" every time you play since the devs would hand place them. IMO it would be better for them to hand craft them beforehand, and then have them randomly placed, making it a 'unique perfect place' instead of just a static one. It's not all or nothing.

Anything dealing with main quests and lore I would assume would be hand crafted.

A computer crash isn't an argument in this debate I don't think. You lose data (your saved games) either way. And like what was stated, the original gen seed would produce the same results.


Depends on if that area is hand crafted or not. And I don't see how a collection quest that changed its location is anymore tedious that one that is static.

I don't WANT to know where everything is before I get to it.


As has already been stated, protocols can be put in place to prevent things like tree walls. And hand crafted items would be static.

Really guys, it doesn't have to be 100% random.

I know, but thats still what you want
Basically, what am trying to say is, your ideas would be good for a game, just not for the Elder Scrolls.
Go play Dwarf Fortress

Who said it was an argument?

We're discussing peacefully... at least I thought we were.

There are lots of different types of people in this world and there isn't always a compromise for each and every one of them to be happy. I think we all know that.

I'm an advocate for hand-crafted because it feels less artificial, but I understand where you're coming from too. I'm a 40-60 on this.

Just pointing out my parts. I'm not saying if you said "Randomly Generated Daedric Realms" I'd be like "No Random Generation!" I just like a hand-made main in-game world. But like I said, I'm a 40-60 on it, it's not a very strong preference.

It would be an issue to powergamers, if they didnt know how to get some uber artifacts at level 1, because they wouldn't be where they were last time. You could never finish TES3 in 7 minutes if there was even little randomization: no that particular alchemy ingredient in that shop, bobs not quite there, neither the ruins with the artifacts.
I consider fast runthroughs powergaming too, I'm not quite sure if I'm correct because I don't do that.

well i dunno, Daggerfall worked very well with randomized contents and had a huge ass world, and this was back in 1996.

hopefully the DaggerXL project comes through so i wont need to look at another new Oblivionized TES game ever again.

No, it isn't. It's hand-crafted.

Watch the dev videos for just Point Lookout. Beth makes a first pass of an area, then combs over it again and again and again until you get a decent quality environment. Things aren't just hand-placed, they're hand-placed and then meticulously tweaked for months.

To say you wouldn't get the same quality from a randomly generated environment is an extreme understatement. Plus there's aspects like lore to consider...

i think for TES, it'd be best to have a combination of randomly generated and meticulously hand crafted content. I would say that the random generation should only be in the development, with much combing over and multiple revisions.

I wasn't referring to random world generation, but rather to gameplay and similarity of many places (the minor dungeons, for example, look all alike). Not to mention that Cyrodiil looks alot more like a generic fantasy world than Vvardenfell did (whose features and places were far more interesting).