A Rant about Sheogorath : The Elder Scrolls Series Discussion

» Wed Nov 24, 2010 2:21 am

Sheogorath thinking to himself as the CoC approaches him for the first time:

Hmmmmm? He/she thinks I'm insane. But we know it is not I who am insane, but he/she who is mad. Hmmmm? But he/she thinks I'm insane. How to best get him/her to do what I want him to do?..... Maybe live up to his/her expectations of me?..........Yes! That's it. If I act mad, which is what he/she expects, then he'll/she'll be more inclined to do what's asked of him/her.............Hold on. If I act insane he/she may see that as "normal" since it is he/she who is insane.........Got it! I'll act normal and he/she will see that as insane..............Okay, I'll act......something. Yes act.

Point being maybe Sheo is acting in a manner that he thinks you expect of him because maybe, like many who have mental problems, he sees himself as the sane one. And many who are so called "normal" expect insane people to act a certain way so Sheo is just trying to live up to his own mythology as opposed to his reality.

» Wed Nov 24, 2010 6:25 am

A small book hidden in some corner with a story of insanity they could get away with in a game such as oblivion, but a central character in a major side quest acting like hannibal lector, compared with the already pg main quest would not fit in how they wanted to sell the game.

So... They couldn't have chosen a more PG prince?

Azura? Peryite? Mora? Hircine?

If you want to make a PG game, DO NOT USE MATURE THEMES.

» Wed Nov 24, 2010 6:58 am

So... They couldn't have chosen a more PG prince?

Azura? Peryite? Mora? Hircine?

If you want to make a PG game, DO NOT USE MATURE THEMES.

Ok I said I did not want to change peoples minds, but you brought up how you would like sheograth represented and put many valid points across...
But you are not asking for him to be insane you are asking him to be petty / evil, many people have pointed to the varieties of madness, and have shown that in game ( not lore ) he tends to be a practical joker more than a serious contender for insantity.

I think personaly he could be shown to be dangerous in his madness, but Azura is shown in game as goodness incarnate ( again not in lore ).
So many of the prince's have been used before, and some would not fit in the role that bethseda wanted to place the player in ( i.e take over and become a "god" which is a common request in rpg's ).

The games are full of In game material that contradicts lore, and at times it has been stated that books are just interpretations of events / people, and not always factual in their portrayal of stories.
Sheogorath is one of those cases you could say in SI he needed the CoC, or that his co-joined prince of order aspect was making him more lucid, or just suspended belief...

So many issues could be put forward but none would matter because its something that you have stuck in your paw, which we all get sometimes.
Note I am not trying to offend just explain my position on this subject, I truely have no idea how or why they made the choices they did.

» Wed Nov 24, 2010 3:18 am

I always thought the reason Haskill was there was to deal with his sinister side...if Sheogorath isn't acting and he is always like the way he is portayed why is his servant so....dull?Maybe Haskill was a normal citizzen of Mania and Sheogorath made him that way....If he is acting then I guess he just isn't a very good actor

» Wed Nov 24, 2010 3:12 am

Let me put it like this: You can't sell a deep, dank and dark jungle filled to the brim with dangerous creatures and ancient ruins to the public, so you have to change it to a stereotypical medieval fantasy wonderland. You can't sell a psychopath with the bright inspired and highly addictive side and in the other second insane and irrational anger, and the land that is modelled by and after him, to the same people.
Business, folks.

I agree that that is what it came down to, but I feel Bethesda could have made the crazy and twisted realm and still sold it. They just got lazy.

At a lore standpoint, why did Sheogorath want to drive the CoC insane? What was his motivation?

» Wed Nov 24, 2010 6:12 am

At a lore standpoint, why did Sheogorath want to drive the CoC insane? What was his motivation?

To become the new Sheogorath. I think the whole thing is pretty awful.

A mortal can't kill a Daedric Prince, especially in his own realm. (Jyggalag WAS in his own realm, he WAS a full Daedric Prince. He was merely standing for different things than he was as Sheogorath.)
Even so, a mortal can't kill a "weak" Daedric Prince. Dagon, weakened from being outside his realm, was impossible to stop without Akatosh
The Greymarch was pretty much the only schizophrenic side we saw in Sheogorath, why get rid of one of the greatest forms of insanity to be able to recreate, and the best Sheogorath had? Imo, this was the one peice of great writing in SI's main quest. And they ruined it.

» Wed Nov 24, 2010 3:25 am

To become the new Sheogorath. I think the whole thing is pretty awful.

A mortal can't kill a Daedric Prince, especially in his own realm. (Jyggalag WAS in his own realm, he WAS a full Daedric Prince. He was merely standing for different things than he was as Sheogorath.)
Even so, a mortal can't kill a "weak" Daedric Prince. Dagon, weakened from being outside his realm, was impossible to stop without Akatosh
The Greymarch was pretty much the only schizophrenic side we saw in Sheogorath, why get rid of one of the greatest forms of insanity to be able to recreate, and the best Sheogorath had? Imo, this was the one peice of great writing in SI's main quest. And they ruined it.

I don't understand. To become the new Sheogorath?

» Wed Nov 24, 2010 10:58 am

I don't understand. To become the new Sheogorath?

Have you played SI, yet? I recommend it. The whole thing follows Elder Scrolls mantling tradition.

Spoiler

Walk like them until they walk like you(that's basically how the saying goes). Jyggalag was a powerful and rising force in Oblivion at one point(he's a brilliant tactician) and the other Daedric Princes, fearful of his power wanted to stop him. He is too powerful to kill(being immortal, and all) and so the other Princes had to find some other way to stop him, so they cursed him to be embodiment of the very thing he despised most, the embodiment of madness(and therefore chaos and anarchy). At the end of every era, Jyggalag is allowed to return to his true form. During this time, he conquers the Shivering Isles, only to be turned back into Sheogorath. That event is known as the Greymarch. Jyggalag hated this cycle, but he could do nothing to stop it. It seems Sheogorath felt the same way, so he attempted to fix the situation. He eventually came up with a plan to end the cycle, a plan that would require another to become Sheogorath. Near another Greymarch, Sheogorath invited mortals to come into his realm so he may choose a champion. The CoC was one such mortal. Sheogorath did not need the CoC specifically nor did he specifically want/choose him. According to Haskill, the CoC choose to enter and was only in the Isles because he/she choose to be. He/she was not summoned. In order to mantle Sheogorath, one needed to act like Sheogorath(walk like them until they walk like you, or walk like them until you become them). For that to happen, Sheogorath needed to drive the CoC insane, but Sheogorath had to be discreet and suble in his way of turning the CoC insane. As Sheogorath does with all mortal he must lead to insanity, he lured the CoC with his more likable side and an avatar that represents and a civilized and wealthy man. The CoC does some tasks and, ignorant of what was going on, got svcked into madness and insanity until he/she was insane enough to be Sheogorath. At the climix of the Greymarch, the previous Sheogorath turned into Jyggalag and the CoC, who was now on the verge of mantling the Madgod himself, was powerful enough to defeat Jyggalag and therefore officially become Sheogorath, although his powers as the Madgod were still developing. Jyggalag, free at last, explained the whole story of his past to the CoC and acknowledged the CoC's becoming of Sheogorath, although he also showed his belief of the CoC not yet being an actual god, yet. Jyggalag then left the Isles and the CoC officially received his throne(the throne of Sheogorath) and some of the powers that come with being Sheogorath. It is generally assumed that the CoC continues to mantle Sheogorath until he is a full god and looks/acts exactly like Sheogorath.

» Wed Nov 24, 2010 8:06 pm

To become the new Sheogorath. I think the whole thing is pretty awful.

A mortal can't kill a Daedric Prince, especially in his own realm. (Jyggalag WAS in his own realm, he WAS a full Daedric Prince. He was merely standing for different things than he was as Sheogorath.)
Even so, a mortal can't kill a "weak" Daedric Prince. Dagon, weakened from being outside his realm, was impossible to stop without Akatosh
The Greymarch was pretty much the only schizophrenic side we saw in Sheogorath, why get rid of one of the greatest forms of insanity to be able to recreate, and the best Sheogorath had? Imo, this was the one peice of great writing in SI's main quest. And they ruined it.

Last I checked Daedric Princes don't die (at all, anywhere). Jyggalag was defeated physically thus freeing him and separating him fully from the Greymarch cycle. Dagon wasn't killed by Akatosh either, he was banished from Mundus and his avatar destroyed for that purpose. Daedric Princes can't die.

» Wed Nov 24, 2010 1:29 pm

Also the Shivering Isles wasn't Jyggalag's realm it was Sheogorath's, otherwise Jyggalag wouldn't need to have a military campaign to oust the current regime. It is only after he's won the Greymarch that he becomes the Prince of the realm but we all know what happens immediately after. As for your point about the CoC defeating Jyggalag s/he is likely powerful enough after their exploits with the Mythic Dawn and/or preparation by Sheogorath (Staff of Madness etc) to at least contend with a Daedric Prince physically.

» Wed Nov 24, 2010 3:45 pm

Camoran, are you saying that because Sheogorath IS madness, his goal isn't to be insane but to make everyone around him insane?

His ultimate goal isn't cut and dry, outside of his determination to finally end the Greymarch who can say what his ultimate intent is? He's not like Dagon who has clearly set out goals.

But to answer your question directly, I do think that fostering and nurturing madness in others is one of his goals. But make no mistake Sheogorath is mad, the personification of madness he is, but he's still "insane".

The issue here is whether or not behaving "insane" is a prerequisite of the madgod, and the answer is 'no'. In the lore stories Sheogorath doesn't behave like a madman, he is perfectly in control of his behaviour.

» Wed Nov 24, 2010 9:38 am

Last I checked Daedric Princes don't die (at all, anywhere). Jyggalag was defeated physically thus freeing him and separating him fully from the Greymarch cycle. Dagon wasn't killed by Akatosh either, he was banished from Mundus and his avatar destroyed for that purpose. Daedric Princes can't die.

Oh, I'm sorry I didn't get the technicalities perfect. :rolleyes:

I doubt you don't know what I mean...

Also the Shivering Isles wasn't Jyggalag's realm it was Sheogorath's, otherwise Jyggalag wouldn't need to have a military campaign to oust the current regime. It is only after he's won the Greymarch that he becomes the Prince of the realm but we all know what happens immediately after.

No, it was. The reason Jyggalag does his military campaign, is because he's the prince of order. Creating order by force is what he enjoys. He gets one chance per era to enjoy himself, so he does. Once every era, Hircine gets to perform his hunt. He does so, because he enjoys it so much.

As for your point about the CoC defeating Jyggalag s/he is likely powerful enough after their exploits with the Mythic Dawn and/or preparation by Sheogorath (Staff of Madness etc) to at least contend with a Daedric Prince physically.

No. Why is he likely powerful enough? I mean, with the Mythic Dawn, all he did was collect some items and do some errands. He hardly killed anything anywhere near the power of a daedric prince. Preperation by Sheogorath? Like what? Oh, he has a staff, he must be able to kill one of the strongest beings in the universe now, eh?

» Wed Nov 24, 2010 7:37 pm

No, it was. The reason Jyggalag does his military campaign, is because he's the prince of order. Creating order by force is what he enjoys. He gets one chance per era to enjoy himself, so he does. Once every era, Hircine gets to perform his hunt. He does so, because he enjoys it so much.

Don't the knights of order have a realm then?Or were they imprisoned within the obelisks?

» Wed Nov 24, 2010 11:53 am

Don't the knights of order have a realm then?Or were they imprisoned within the obelisks?

They're his daedric minons. Like Azura's Winged Twilights, Sheogorath's Golden Saints, Malacath's Ogrims, etc. They could, in theory, be summoned by a conjurer, if they knew the spell, just like summoning a scamp.

A daedric prince can pretty much create his minions from thin air in his own realm. Sheogorath was summoning them, as Jyggalag was taking over.

» Wed Nov 24, 2010 10:54 am

No. Why is he likely powerful enough? I mean, with the Mythic Dawn, all he did was collect some items and do some errands. He hardly killed anything anywhere near the power of a daedric prince. Preperation by Sheogorath? Like what? Oh, he has a staff, he must be able to kill one of the strongest beings in the universe now, eh?

Creating the staff of Sheogorath was more than just building a nifty device, it linked the CoC to the Tree of Madness, making them the new Prince of Madness. I suspect that this severed Jyggalag's connection, making him defeatable in the Shivering Isles.

» Wed Nov 24, 2010 4:11 pm

Creating the staff of Sheogorath was more than just building a nifty device, it linked the CoC to the Tree of Madness, making them the new Prince of Madness. I suspect that this severed Jyggalag's connection, making him defeatable in the Shivering Isles.

Awful writing, imo.

Anyway, wasn't this a thread about how Sheogorath was portrayed?

» Wed Nov 24, 2010 6:41 pm

It isnt how dangerous he is that matters... It is his personality which is wrong. He was always very friendly and slightly mad. But when you think of mad people in the real world you dont think of friendly people who may act strangely sometimes, you think about murderous villains who kill people they see at once. You think of pyromanics. You think of raqers and people who hurt other people because of nothing. That is missing in Sheogorath.

This is bull. When I think of crazy people I think of those people who babble nonsense and shout at inanimate objects. And yes people with schizofrinia, paranoia, are pretty damn crazy. You just need to accept theirs other forms of madness.

I'm tired of people always wanting a madmen always/all the time being some dark twisted pervert. Their are other sides.....

I think SI showed enough of his dark side through dialogue. Besides actions speak louder than words, they didn't really show him doing anything manic or demented in a scene? Also you rread the books in SI like the (adventurer trap thing) manual it shows his follower in fear of being killed.

He is unpredictable, chaos means to be out proportion of something and mixed up and not at the right amounts. We were probrably just experiencing a time of his more manic personality.

In a moot point, you guys are to hellfired in opinion on him. Besides hes the prince of madness, he isn't supposed to make sense in many ways.

» Wed Nov 24, 2010 6:06 pm

This is bull. When I think of crazy people I think of those people who babble nonsense and shout at inanimate objects. And yes people with schizofrinia, paranoia, are pretty damn crazy. You just need to accept theirs other forms of madness.

No, I believe you need to accept that there's other forms of madness. These aren't shown at all, and the only hint of insanity is just one big joke in SI's Sheogorath.

I'm tired of people always wanting a madmen always/all the time being some dark twisted pervert. Their are other sides.....

I'm tired of people always thinking madmen are hilarious, and nothing but. I've seen more popular media portraying crazy people as funny, by far.

I think SI showed enough of his dark side through dialogue. Besides actions speak louder than words, they didn't really show him doing anything manic or demented in a scene? Also you rread the books in SI like the (adventurer trap thing) manual it shows his follower in fear of being killed.

No it didn't.

Dialogue: The closest we got where the likes of "Ta! Come visit again! Or I'll pluck out your eyes, ha ha ha!". While a bit of humour is acceptable, the pure personification of insanity shouldn't ignore that which makes up a large portion of insanity.

Books: The whole point of this thread is to complain about how SHEOGORATH himself isn't portrayed well.

He is unpredictable, chaos means to be out proportion of something and mixed up and not at the right amounts. We were probrably just experiencing a time of his more manic personality.

In a moot point, you guys are to hellfired in opinion on him. Besides hes the prince of madness, he isn't supposed to make sense in many ways.

Yet all I see are people saying he's being "funny" to lure the CoC into doing his work for him. In no way, at all, if he makes no sense, and is unpredicable and chaotic, should be able to do this.

» Wed Nov 24, 2010 5:28 am

SNIP

I guess the problem here is people's preference. Personally I wouldn't care how dark/funny Sheogorath is as long as he at least shows madness of any kind.

Still wouldn't have mind seeing him torturing a few prisoners/volunteers in creative and destructive ways.

» Wed Nov 24, 2010 1:33 pm

I always have been pretty annoyed about how Sheogorath was interpreted in Shivering Isles.

I've always thought Sheogorath to be one of the darker princes. People hate him, and he causes pain and suffering frequently. In SI, however, he was a comedian. Sure, he represented certain aspects of insanity, but Sheogorath is pretty much the definition of insanity. It stands to reason that he should have his schizophrenic murderous side. The ONLY times I ever saw something remotely similar to the darker side of insanity was when it was acompanied by some kind of punch line. "I'm so happy I could tear out your intestines and strangle you with them!". That may show signs of insanity, but there is no serious side of insanity, because it's a joke.

If you go to an asylum, I guarantee, not everyone will be the kind of happy person Sheogorath was depicted as. I'm talking about his PERSONALITY, by the way. I don't mean his realm, or his quests. Sure, his realm may be him, but he is also his realm. If his realm depicts dark insanity, so should his personality!

I just feel that there was a major joke made of Sheogorath. He has aways been an important villain. He threw the Ministry of Truth at Vivec!

How does everyone else feel, from a lore point of view? I've complained about it before in the general discussion, but people just enjoy his humour there. I feel people here may feel the same way as I do.

Oblivion is sold to the general market so lots of teenyboppers are buying this and if Sheogorath was made the way he really should have been, like the epitome of insanity, then you'd have a lot of soccer moms filing complaints or even lawsuits. That's america for ya.

I mean, real insanity is stabbing a newborn baby to death in the eyes (which actually happened several years back when a mental patient was released from the state hospital here in California) or thinking your neighbors gardener is out to get you so he can do voodoo magic with your corpse. And in no way would Bethesda put that kind of graphic stuff in a PC game.

But yes, I too felt the whole SI including Sheogorath was totally not what it should have or could have been.

» Wed Nov 24, 2010 4:54 pm

You have, what, seven conversations with Sheogorath? And they last for...two minutes, at their max? He basically tells you where to go and what to do. You aren't having tea, or even a real conversation. He's giving you orders, and you're following them. Regardless of whether or not he portrays insanity, or its facets, "realistically", you simply do not have THAT much interaction with him. Every word out of his mouth cannot be complete insane drivel, and he is not the most insane being to ever exist. He's the embodiment of insanity, but that doesn't mean he is incapable of lucid thought.

But what does he have you do? Capture and torture/murder several adventurers. Drive people insane. Assassinate members of his royal court. His army is permanently divided and in constant war with itself for his own amusemant (re: Dark Seducers versus Golden Saints). When the rite of ascension in your court is tricking the reigning title holder into overdosing on drugs so that the supplicant can remove the bloody remains of his heart to sacrifice in your church, I really don't think you can criticize a lack of "darkness". Is his dialogue as dark as possible? No. But you aren't living with the man. He gives you a few orders, and you follow them. Maybe you don't think the orders are dark enough, but he does become increasingly lucid throughout.

» Wed Nov 24, 2010 3:01 pm

I never got a "dark" tone from Sheogorath lore. (Although, the above reply covered it all properly)

Shivering Isles did fine.

» Wed Nov 24, 2010 3:43 pm

Oblivion is sold to the general market so lots of teenyboppers are buying this and if Sheogorath was made the way he really should have been, like the epitome of insanity, then you'd have a lot of soccer moms filing complaints or even lawsuits. That's america for ya.

Yes, but as I said earlier, if you don't want to have a game being too mature, leave out mature themes like insanity!

But what does he have you do?

Key word there. You. I'm complaining about Sheogorath. He never does anything to make me think he's the personification of insanity.

» Wed Nov 24, 2010 6:28 pm

They could have made Sheogorath like the real life insane Roman Emperor Caligula.

For example, he is reported to have killed someones son or daughter at a party and then force the parent to tell jokes. And similar disgusting things. That is really sick. But that would probably be too sick to make a video game enjoyable.

Although it might not have been exactly lore friendly, I think the Sheogorath in Shivering Isles makes the expansion very enjoyable.

The dark sides are hinted at. Like supporting Relmyna and her torture and experiments, or the execution point in the mountains. But not so explicit as to make the expansion unenjoyable.

» Wed Nov 24, 2010 2:24 pm

I always have been pretty annoyed about how Sheogorath was interpreted in Shivering Isles.

I've always thought Sheogorath to be one of the darker princes. People hate him, and he causes pain and suffering frequently. In SI, however, he was a comedian. Sure, he represented certain aspects of insanity, but Sheogorath is pretty much the definition of insanity. It stands to reason that he should have his schizophrenic murderous side. The ONLY times I ever saw something remotely similar to the darker side of insanity was when it was acompanied by some kind of punch line. "I'm so happy I could tear out your intestines and strangle you with them!". That may show signs of insanity, but there is no serious side of insanity, because it's a joke.

If you go to an asylum, I guarantee, not everyone will be the kind of happy person Sheogorath was depicted as. I'm talking about his PERSONALITY, by the way. I don't mean his realm, or his quests. Sure, his realm may be him, but he is also his realm. If his realm depicts dark insanity, so should his personality!

I just feel that there was a major joke made of Sheogorath. He has aways been an important villain. He threw the Ministry of Truth at Vivec!

How does everyone else feel, from a lore point of view? I've complained about it before in the general discussion, but people just enjoy his humour there. I feel people here may feel the same way as I do.

I agree. Bethesda nailed one part, dropped the ball with another.