You do know how market works, right? If game will be excellent, praised by critics, a lot of people like this game and it sells well, then retailers WILL stock it, and console developers WILL accept this game.
My point is that having A rating doesn't automatically make game worse, on the contrary, if done right it can make game even better.
(I'm not talking about sixyBeach and similar crap, that makes sixual relationship their main theme)

Whenever a new Elder Scrolls game comes out post Daggerfall, nudity gets put on the table for discussion at Bethesda it seems. It got to the point where it was applied in practice to see how it looked in Oblivion, hence the locked files. And they ultimately decided against it.

The question has been asked for Skyrim, though we could very well get a no comment answer in these next few weeks.



Except that if it's AO many US retailers won't carry it, Walmart, Target, and I believe Gamestop will not carry AO games, and those three are huge, so that's a problem if you want to sell the game.

It's a moot point because they've never done anything in these games to warrant an AO, even Daggerfall didn't cross that line, at least in the states.

GTA 3 seemed to do pretty well before it was changed to not be AO. Was it porm before the Hot Coffee scandle (when it should've had an AO rating, according to the ESRB)? Was it porm after the Hot Coffee scandle (after the game was changed to make it properly M)? 99.99999% of the game was untouched, but that last bit, that you couldn't even see without a mod, somehow made it 'porm', while removing it made it 'not porm'?

Essentially, AO is the rating that's reserved for when something should be censored. In the US it doesn't hold legal weight, but it's a rating that effectively strong-arms developers into changing their game due to retailer and console policies. M games are for 17+, and AO games are for 18+, but AO games are somehow unfit for sale? The posted guidelines for the AO rating are pretty vague compared to the M rating (I bet I could make a case for many extremely popular M-rated games to fit under AO). Plus the vast majority of people who play M-rated games are 18+, but somehow making a game for an 18+ audience is deemed unacceptable, while 17+ is A-OK. Right.

Cursing and gore does not make a game "mature", in fact that kind of thing would be the kind of immature drek that I can't stand. There have been amazing games since games of been out that had absolutely no need of such things, and The elder scrolls games have made a fine example of a great series that has not needed them. Just like Stargate Universe thought it'd make a better series if it had six in every episode, some would say thats "mature" the fact is it was an abdominal addition to the series, before it was all about content and now everything is about six that is why it got cut off very fast, the same would happen to TES if it went the same route with cursing and gore, I'm glad to have heard from Todd that Skyrim will not be like that, and I hope it will remain that way so that everyone can enjoy it for its richness and not be dirtied in useless so called "mature" content.

We discuss adding mature elements not for sake of "oh there is so much blood and guts and hands and legs fly around weeeeee, and [censored] on every corner, oh also my characters faks everything that moves and occasionally something that doesn't moves anymore, and ghghghghghgghghhhhhhhhhh"
Maturity as gameplay and world enhancing element is considered here. Like moments of inhumane cruelty and violence. One moment from medieval chronicle describes raid on village: all men were slaughtered, women brutally [censored] (some in front of their families), kids who tried to run away was used for amusemant, archers made bets on who will shoot which kid. After raid was done, all survivors were gathered in one building and this building was burned down. Similar episode could quite suit in Skyrim's civil war setting.

Remember that its only retailers who determine whether to sell AO games or not, so your main beef is with them. A lot of people (not saying you are one of those people) seem to be under the assumption that US law actually limits the sale of AO games, when in fact its entirely based on store policy.

Actually it's more on the console makers. Although retailers do pose a significant hurdle (unnecessary restriction of target audience), there are some ways around them if you really care enough. It can still be sold. Microsoft/Sony/Nintendo not letting AO games on their consoles, though, is a much bigger problem as you can't get a license for making the game, and without a license, it's all but impossible to even run the game on the console (you often need hardware or software hacks which may be illegal)... which means you're PC-only, causing very limited publisher/funding options (they'll want console versions), which in turn affects the quality of the product.

That would be if that is how Nirn was, it has never been a part of Nirns history (unless you can find a book of lore referring to child abuse and the rest of your (censored) materials.) It would not make the game more enjoyable and definitely not more mature.

Mods had nothing to do with Oblivion being re-rated to M.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/editorials/op-ed/797-Boobies-Did-Not-Break-the-Game-The-ESRB-Clears-the-Air-On-Oblivion

A mod did result in the ESRB re-examining the game in the "hot coffee" context, but it was nothing more than vanilla content that hadn't been closely examined previously which led to the re-rating under the ESRB's claim that the M rating was what it should have gotten in the first place.

Interesting to hear what would make game more mature? No sixual themes, no violence, no inhumanity (thing that often occurs during wars- we are vile creatures). So how would you describe maturity? Except forming family and raising kids, please (that's something more suitable in Fable).
I'm highly interested in your opinion.




Oh, for God's sake.
For a last time, people
YES I WAS WRONG, MODS USUALLY HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH RATING, I ADMIT IT!

So please lets pass on topic please.

Ah, I hadn't realized that GTA3 had been threatened with that (although it shouldn't surprise me, given Rockstar's "push the envelope" reputation.)


Most of the stuff I remembered were "Night Trap"-like adventure games, with filmed footage of nvde models. And, of course, the straight porm games that the porm companies tried at one point.


Either way, it ends up the same - retailers and console companies won't touch AO with a 10 foot pole. Even if they were "artistic".


(That was the theory behind the NC-17 rating - a non-X rating to give to serious/artistic movies that were beyond R. But in the end, it didn't matter. A handful of NC-17 movies came out, and found that it was almost impossible to get into theatres and onto store shelves. And so the rating became the kiss of death, rather than an opportunity for edgy/artsy filmmakers.)

I think you had a typo in the topic, it said "Rated M for Everyone."

I thought M was for mature and E was for everyone, maybe I am mistaken....
:hubbahubba:

Oblivion was the perfect example of a well done mature game. So is Age of Conan BTW. Also I never did say no violence, there is an appropriate degree of violence, and I believe Skyrim will have that, much like Age of Conan. Not excessive violence such as fallout. Not to say that I didn't enjoy fallout, but it was in spite of blowing peoples brains out when I got a head shot, not because of it.

Oblivion had tortured hanged bodies with their genitals cut off.

Even if every other part of the game was rainbows and gumdrops, its an M

So I guess the bloody heads on pikes are fine and dandy for a T rating?

TBH, considering some of the subject matters in Morrowind, I'm surprised it didn't get re-rated.

Well... Its very likely that I'd be a bad judge of that. :chaos:

Tell me this... In your opinion did Diablo deserve an M rating?

**I should mention that I don't actually recall any heads on pikes (not doubting you though). Where were they in the game?
(I never completed the main quest, and my PC was never approached by the Dark Brotherhood.)

I just don't remember seeing anything in that game that I'd not find in a PG13 movie. :shrug:

Its funny... Looking up PG 13 horror movies, I find Sam Raimi's "drag me to hell" (which I never saw), and The Stepfather (2009).
This lead me to look up Evil Dead, and was truly surprised ~to laughter that they had reclassified it to NC-17.
I know http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Evil_Dead, but having seen the movie, I just don't understand it.

Subject matters wouldn't usually get a game an M rating. Xenogears would easily have been M with more detailed depictions of the violence in the game.

As far as the releasing games unlicensed thing goes Galoob actually won that one in a court battle. Courts also sided with iPhone unlocks. Console hacks to allow it to happen would be 100% legal, but it would void the warranty and there's no way major publishers would sever ties to the game console manufacturers that way. Even after that fact it would be tough to sell the games in stores.

For some reason graphic violence is accepted more than nudity or sixual content. Nudity however seems to be getting by with an M rating lately as long as nothing sixual is shown in detail. In fact I heard God of War 3 has what amounts to an ...intimacy... minigame and it slipped by without an AO. T can get by with a heck of a lot more than people are thinking, and so can M really. It would take full on graphic torture scenes or explicitly detailed sixual content to get an AO rating I suspect. Bethesda doesn't need to develop either of those things in their games. It's possible the people saying AO is basically unofficial censorship are right though. It's a heck of a lot better than it was in the 1990s when it comes to self-imposed censorship in the game industry though.

I'm not sure if the smiley implies that you are joking or not, but I'll pretend you're serious.

I was trying to make a point. Read the entire original post, or just skip to the last sentence if you're lazy.

I'm not talking about graphical violence (and BTW when you unload shotgun into persons head, brains should blow out), instead I'm trying to present few things that could make setting colors a bit grimmer.
For God's sake we have civil war going on. War never happens without friendly fire, collateral damage, war crimes and humiliation of war prisoners and supporters of enemy.
We don't need lore for that, it's simply how war is going on, due to nature of man-like sentient beings.

It's not up to you to decide what "man-like sentient beings" are all about in Nirn, that's bethesda's choice. It's their world when we play it's the world we're living in. They are the DM.

As for things that "Should" happen if everything that "should happen" in every situation bethesda would no longer be making good games they'd be making simulations. If you want to see someone's brains blown out so bad join the army, though I doubt you'll enjoy it much if you actually find yourself in that situation.

The Witcher 2 showed how an RPG can pull of an M rating. While I'm not suggesting Skyrim have a fully functional brothel in every town (although tbh I wouldn't mind...), I do think the advlt themes portrayed in the Witcher combined with some dark and gritty Skyrim graphics and robust, weighty and visceral combat (one thing the Witcher certainly lacked) would make for one hell of a game.

1. It is only my concerns regarding TES setting, so calm down
2. From previous games it became quite obvious that Tamriel is inhabitated by men who have a lot in common with us, so I expect them act more or less as ordinary people (since it is Nord civil war)
3. Ever played FO:NV hardore mode, or Realism mods for TES3 and TES4? Not exactly simulations, but close, and those really enhanced gameplay.
4. You have no idea what you talk about, since you dont know me, that is why I'll pretend you have never told nothing about army.

I can't wait to see what Skyrim's M'aiq has to say about THIS topic...

"Why do people want to have six with M'aiq? M'aiq is fine, fine without it, yes"

A game can be just fine without six and extreme gore. I understand adding some realistic ton to it (if I chop a head off, there will be blood, I get that) (there are [censored]s and skimpy women and six jokes, I get that). But in the fantasy genre there is eneogh skimpy armor and lame blood that something with taste is wonderful from time to time... I like having my chest covered in games.

I'm pretty sure we should just let the developers make games how they want and leave the ratings to the ESRB, PEGI, etc., etc. If Skyrim turns out to be M- Whatever. If it turns out to be T- Whatever. It's not like we're going to be scouring the game looking for brutality and six when there's quests to do and dragons to kill.

Nope. They seemed like they'd make the games very unenjoyable, so I've never bothered.

-----

One thing I've found interesting is your comment that you're "not talking about graphic violence", along with several examples you gave of "well, it'd only be reasonable/appropriate to have " (brains blowing out, heavily damaged and mutilated bodies, etc)

And "So mature content can fit in TES universe if it is appropriate and not cheap.".... when all the examples you gave seemed to be cheap and gratuitous excess.