For those of us who are incredulous of a world that contains at a single location, say, nix hounds at one point in time, but golden saints at another:


I understand the need for the game to get harder as you get stronger, and for it to not be too hard while your character is still weak. However, rather than just change the type of enemies to be found in the world as the player gains in strength, why not just change the enemy A.I. as the player gets stronger. What I mean is, say you are weak and walk near a mammoth. Why couldn't it be set up to where the mammoth leaves you alone (unless you attack it)? And then if you are stronger, then would the mammoth attack you if you got too near. (this does not include "bosses" that you need to fight for quest completion. They would need to level as you do to keep the game playable)

Why does it have to be a mudcrab at t = t₁ and a mammoth at t = t₂?

In a real world, animals and creatures won't suddenly start appearing on a continent just because you get stronger, yet in a real world a very powerful enemy might completely leave alone what amounts to an insect before it (and conversely try to destroy what it considers a threat).


Obviously it's probably too late for a change like this, but what do you guys think? (hope I didn't screw up the poll)

I don't see how that solution makes anything better. The stronger creatures not attacking you because you're weak makes just as little sense as new creature types suddenly appearing.

If you are not a creatures normal pray, and it does not think you are a threat, why would it attack you? This happens in real life all the time.

Just try walking up close to an elephant. I dare you.

I don't like either. How about random outdoor encounters have rarity scaled to character level and enemy levels scaled within boundaries (goblins can be level 5-15, they are level 5 when the character is level 1 and 15 when the character is level 20). This way you can still run into something that you can murder easily and feel awesome but also run into something that you need to run away from. As for dungeon encounters and the like, the quests should have set enemies with the same enemy specific floors and caps on scaling (but maybe have a wider range such as goblins being 1-20) while bosses have very solid level floors with fairly liberal caps.

And how many elephants stand in the middle of roads? Not very many.

There can be a distance factor (say, you get within three feet of the creature), and the larger and dangerous creatures can be placed in the forests, away from areas near the roads and paths (like in real life).

In fact, the creatures aggressiveness could be tuned to your level continuously, rather than "below level X" = placid, "above level X" = aggressive. The animals could become more aggressive as you get stronger- WHICH MAKES SENSE in that animals will be more likely to challenge a creature it perceives as a threat than a creature it perceives as a neutral element to the surrounding area.

To an elephant and many other animals, you are a threat because you are human, and you are squishy.

Of course, they won't all maul you like an elephant or a moose. Many will run away. Almost none of them, though, would ignore you.

EDIT the poll:

• A system where powerful creatures exist on the continent (along with all other creatures) at all times, but THEY MAGICALLY leave you alone when you are weak (unless you attack them).
  
• The current system where creatures magically appear on the continent as you get stronger. (2 votes [33.33%])

Elephants don't go chasing you down if you're far enough away from them, except in rare cases (musk, for example). If that really were the case, we would have no footage of wild elephants, since the photographers would all be squishy.

It's "must" actually. But in reality, there are instances of whole herds of elephants going berzerk, destroying buildings, flipping cars, killing people. Not just males, but females as well.

Sometimes it's because they've broken into a brewery (on purpose) and gotten drunk. Other times...there's no other explanation, except that they know we are taking their homes from them, and killing them for their teeth. Pachyderms are among the smartest mammals on the planet, right up with primates and cetaceans.

That only works when you are talking about naturally non-aggressive animals. They'll leave you alone as long as you don't threaten them, it doesn't really matter how experienced or skilled you are. Take a buffalo, for example. Stay out of its way and you're fine. Annoy it, threaten it, or happen to be in the wrong place during a stampede and you're a pancake.

Predators, on the other hand, prey on the young, the weak, and the old rather than taking on the stronger, more fit prey. Lions and tigers are actually less likely to attack you if they consider you a threat, and more likely to attack you if they think you are an easy meal.

Granted, I'm taking about animals as opposed to humanoid or other intelligent enemies, but I think the same basic principles apply. Why would a powerful intelligent enemy wait until you are a threat before attacking you? If this is an aggressive enemy, don't you think they would take you out while they can still do so without breaking a sweat? And if they're not aggressive, then they're not going to attack you anyway, whether they consider you a threat or not.

So my first impression is that a "realistic" solution would actually work the opposite of the way you describe.

To put it into game terms, that just means they have an aggro radius. Wow, isn't that the way mobs already work in games, too?

And it makes no sense for animals to become more or less aggressive as you get stronger because they're not going to know the difference. A man with a pocket knife and a man with a .50 cal rifle are the same to a polar bear.

I saw a bear in the "wild" once while hiking when I was camping as a kid, and had it chose to chase me down I probably would be toast. But it didn't, for whatever reason (probably because the terrain would be trifling, it had better things to do, and it was afraid of us as much as we were of it).

Animals don't just attack on site. If they really did, how would this photograph be possible?

http://www.awf.org/files/3819_file_lion_Kleberg.jpg

And yet most dogs could maul us to death if they wished because they are vastly stronger, and yet they dont. In fact they welcome a good ol pet and belly rub.

Point being, not all animels will try and kill you, most would run or just ignore you unless you got too close. Some of the even bigger animels are just "meh" such as the whaleshark.

That is what I would like to be translated into the game. none of this "everything is out to get you" crap.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdPZqW7Z_9A

yeah, passive animals... but you were inferring all stronger creatures in the wilderness would KNOW your weaker. i agree there should be more passive creatures in the wilderness (which is confirmed i think) but stronger creatures should not only attack higher level characters unless provoked.

EDIT: and lots of animals (like bears lots of the time) will sometimes just kill you. they usually think they are protecting themselves.

That's a trait that has been specifically bred into dogs. They're domesticated. That doesn't make for a strong case.

How many lions go chasing after rats? Doesn't happen very much.




Now, it is MORE realistic to consider a situation where there is a distance factor involved, with the most dangerous enemies in the more remote locations, than a situation in which terrible enemies all swim across the ocean at precisely the time you become a better fighter.



The problem is that there are ZERO difficult enemies on the land at first, and then later there are ZERO weak enemies (how the heck do the powerful enemies eat anyway? The food chain is screwed by the time you get powerful).

Dogs kill more people than sharks, of course 1/2 of the world doesn't have a shark in there home. But trust me, take a wild wolf into your house, you will get bit. He'll run away in the woods, but get to close and they will attack (I know I know, there's been one CONFIRMED man killed by wolves in the last century, but they didn't get their reputation without some past history, besides, how many hikers go missing every year? If a wolf pack got you, there wouldn't even be bones after an hour.)

All animals are territorial, but with 7 BILLION people, they've either 1) acclimated to man or been domesticated (dogs, some birds, rodents, deer, cows) or 2) learned over a million years of tool and fire use that we are too be feared, squishy and delicious as we are. That, and the increasingly disproportionate ratio of animals/people means that attacks are rare, ALTHOUGH, there have been spikes in animal deaths across all species and the world recently. I'm guessing that's because we've physically pushed them to the ends of the earth, and they are literally up against a wall.

Sure, but there's a territory thing involved, too. In addition, not many wild creatures live on human roads. What I am proposing is that the dangerous creatures live in the wilderness, the mountains, etc, and that they only attack you (when you're weak) if you get too close to them. Granted, the idea of them getting more aggressive as you get powerful only flies with the reasoning that if you are perceived as a threat they attack you more often, but the alternative is to have all the mammoths, giants, trolls, bears etc all somehow swim across the ocean to take up residence on the continent once you become stronger. Objectively as I can possibly be, the former seems a lot closer to reality than the latter.

Speaking of sharks, my favorite useless statistic is that each year, more people are killed by pigs than by sharks. It's not well known, but pigs are actually quite vicious.

I do agree that not every animal should be aggressive. I also think it's absurd that they'd change their aggressive/passive behavior based on your level.

No, because lions are not naturally predatory when it comes to rats. Which actually proves my point rather than disproves it. A lion will attack a human that gets too close no matter how "powerful" that human may be. (If they have a choice, though, they'll take the weaker humans.)



Agreed. Unfortunately, TES is an open world, and having areas with weaker creatures and areas with stronger creatures effectively determines where you go at which levels.



I'm not arguing with you there. I agree that it got rather annoying in Oblivion to be running around the forest and run into nothing but Minotaur Lords. I just don't think that the solution you proposed in the first post is necessarily more "realistic."

I do not have an answer here. I think it's a trade-off: if you want an open world, you have to settle for an unrealistic means of making sure the game remains challenging.

But what is the alternative? Something far MORE absurd: that they don't even live on the continent and suddenly appear there once you get stronger. At least the other way they sense that you are a more powerful creature and could feel threatened, thus triggering the aggressive response (but again they would slaughter you if you got very close to them regardless of level).

As difficult as that tiny thing is, how can you honestly say with a straight face that them suddenly appearing on the continent, whilst all the weaker enemies suddenly disappear, isn't at least twice as absurd?

Fun Fact: Silverfish are the only animal that is 100% domestic. You can not find them naturally in the wild.

OK makes sense, your poll mislead me a bit. but consider my idea:

When you get more powerful, weaker animals flee from you. Being an all-powerful sorcerer, or an incredible warrior walking through the forest, and having packs of wolves run away from you, that would be awesome. When you're weaker, they view you as prey, but then they feel your strong and powerful presence at higher levels, so they run away.

Another possible compromise would be to have all types of enemies on the world at any given time (based on where these creatures live), but make the harder ones more rare while you're weaker.

But this "everything is a Minotaur Lord" is completely ridiculous and butchers all immersion for me.