Realism : V - Skyrim

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 11:00 am

Where does this "I WIN BUTTON" stuff come from? Seriously.

The massive hyperbole involved in saying "If you don't like my ideas about adding difficulty, clearly you want NO difficulty, run the game in God Mode, and want to finish it in 2 hours" really doesn't contribute much to the debate. (Note that I'm referring not to a specific quote, but to a pattern of responses by several of the posters I've read over the past weeks.)

(I've seen it alot in places like the WoW forums, for example. Suggesting that something might be a bit on the hard side is literally replied to with "Fine, just have Blizzard mail you a complete set of the best gear as soon as you hit level ____, then". How can you even respond to that?

:confused:

-------

re: survival - while, yes, you have to survive in order to get anything else done in a game, that does not make survival the main issue. In an Epic/Heroic game, saving the world might be the main issue. In a game like Persona 3, time management & developing relationships is the main issue. In a racing game, yeah.... you need to not run off the road and crash - but passing other cars and getting to the finish is the main issue. Etc, etc, etc. Yeah, you have to survive any dangers. But that doesn't meant it's the focus of the game. It's not what the game is about.

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 3:27 pm

Good poll and post. I voted for 'some realism' as I do like realism, but not so much that it stops becoming a fantasy and instead becomes a separate reality.

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 6:42 pm

Enough realism that suits the world the game is in. If it seems and feels practical in the game world, then I am content.

Thins like eating and sleeping and drinking are all micromanagement crap that I do not like. If they tried to force that on me, it would be the first thing I modded out. I like to play games for the game, not repeat what I already do in real life.

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:48 am

Not dying is very different from survival gameplay. Personally, I would like survival elements in the game, but it's not that kind of game. I'll download/make the mods when I get around to it. Most people aren't interested in Oregon Trail: Skyrim.

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 7:29 pm

Where does this "I WIN BUTTON" stuff come from? Seriously.

The massive hyperbole involved in saying "If you don't like my ideas about adding difficulty, clearly you want NO difficulty, run the game in God Mode, and want to finish it in 2 hours" really doesn't contribute much to the debate. (Note that I'm referring not to a specific quote, but to a pattern of responses by several of the posters I've read over the past weeks.)

(I've seen it alot in places like the WoW forums, for example. Suggesting that something might be a bit on the hard side is literally replied to with "Fine, just have Blizzard mail you a complete set of the best gear as soon as you hit level ____, then". How can you even respond to that?

:confused:

-------

re: survival - while, yes, you have to survive in order to get anything else done in a game, that does not make survival the main issue. In an Epic/Heroic game, saving the world might be the main issue. In a game like Persona 3, time management & developing relationships is the main issue. In a racing game, yeah.... you need to not run off the road and crash - but passing other cars and getting to the finish is the main issue. Etc, etc, etc. Yeah, you have to survive any dangers. But that doesn't meant it's the focus of the game. It's not what the game is about.

I win buttons appeared with Oblivion:
- Minigames (throwing skill development down the toilets because people just cant wait to be gods on whatever)
- No skill related combat (as above)
- A compass that show you exactly where you have to go to the milimeter (i can t reaaaaad show me the way)
- Imortal NPC (i want to still win regardless of what i do)
- and a few more.

I find it strange that in the old days nobody asked for those, its a trend that came developping itself throught the last 15 years, spoiled people probably, that cant deal with some frustration.
I m not much piffed at them, i mfussed because bethesda obey them screwing the other players gameplay.
I wonder why they do not give options.

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 8:10 pm

I've noticed some comments talking about LotR and other fantasy books and how TES should follow them when it comes to realism.
Well, they are right.
For example, I love Hobbit because it has golden middle ground between fantasy and realism.

Some realistic stuff that I want is that you have to eat, drink and sleep, but only in HC mod so people can turn it off if they feel like it's become too much of a pain or something.
Still, I would like to be able to beat the crap out of horde of goblins or bandits even when they corner me instead of having Oblivion scenarios where corner = doom.
Huge flaw in Oblivion was that you couldn't feel the power you had because you had to take on enemies one by one and had to run away using backpedal and fight while running away in case you faced more enemies.
That svcked big time and wish they do something about it.
When I see 5-6 bandits I want to charge between them, swing my huge mace and bash their heads.
Also, when it comes do damage system, I think that HP should stay, but make it that hitting certain parts of body will do more damage (ie. head), but no instant kill stuff, that svcks.

Edit:
To all those who don't want HC mode.
People, don't be egoistic and think of how that mod is optional and is not forced on you.
It could make many people happy so don't just talk trash about it only because you won't use it.

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:13 am

I've noticed some comments talking about LotR and other fantasy books and how TES should follow them when it comes to realism.
Well, they are right.
For example, I love Hobbit because it has golden middle ground between fantasy and realism.

Some realistic stuff that I want is that you have to eat, drink and sleep, but only in HC mod so people can turn it off if they feel like it's become too much of a pain or something.
Still, I would like to be able to beat the crap out of horde of goblins or bandits even when they corner me instead of having Oblivion scenarios where corner = doom.
Huge flaw in Oblivion was that you couldn't feel the power you had because you had to take on enemies one by one and had to run away using backpedal and fight while running away in case you faced more enemies.
That svcked big time and wish they do something about it.
When I see 5-6 bandits I want to charge between them, swing my huge mace and bash their heads.
Also, when it comes do damage system, I think that HP should stay, but make it that hitting certain parts of body will do more damage (ie. head), but no instant kill stuff, that svcks.

Realism, The Great Divide

While i find the often thrown argument ?It's not what TES is about? rather self-serving because TES identity keeps evolving from iteration to iteration, i would say that an optional HD mode would serve both worlds perfectly. Because, bottom line, it comes down to personal preference. We can rationalize it and mask it as Truths set in stone but the driving force behind it is personal preference.

And that's just fine.
As long as there is an option for those of us who want it.

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:02 am

People are definitely going way overboard about 'realism'.

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 5:02 pm

Enough realism that suits the world the game is in. If it seems and feels practical in the game world, then I am content.

Thins like eating and sleeping and drinking are all micromanagement crap that I do not like. If they tried to force that on me, it would be the first thing I modded out. I like to play games for the game, not repeat what I already do in real life.

I'm with you.

I don't wanna be an a**, but it seems like some of you want to replace your real life, and that's just sad.

I'm not under the impression that all of you are, but still...

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:16 pm

I'd say as realistic as possible without it impeding entertainment.
Physical, visual, audial, maybe even anatomical, there's nothing like cutting something in half and going "oh look, there's the heart"
But I wouldn't want to have to eat or sleep, that is not something that serves to further the immersion of the player in the game world effectively.

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:08 pm

I'd say as realistic as possible without it impeding entertainment.
Physical, visual, audial, maybe even anatomical, there's nothing like cutting something in half and going "oh look, there's the heart"
But I wouldn't want to have to eat or sleep, that is not something that serves to further the immersion of the player in the game world effectively.

But it does. :confused:

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:21 pm

I win buttons appeared with Oblivion:

The others were debated on other threads but this one...

- No skill related combat (as above)

You mean you need skill to win in Morrowind combat?
HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA... ah that was good. You just have to push one button, and pray that the enemy dies faster. That's the depth of Morrowind's combat.

Or you mean that Oblivion combat doesn't used skills? Wrong again. Skills determined the damage caused, and the armor class your armor gives, not to mention the useful perks some levels of skills give.

And to be also on topic: Morrowind combat is anything but realistic.

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 8:19 pm

But it does. :confused:

If you want immersion, go to bed for 6-8 hours, and 2-3 times a day, drink water or a restore fatigue potion called water, No jugging healing potions, pretend to poop, etc. You don't need a game mechanic to force one to do those things.

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:46 pm

If you want immersion, go to bed for 6-8 hours, and 2-3 times a day, and drink water or a restore fatigue potion called water. You don't need a game mechanics to tell you to do that.

It all depends on how much imagination we have. I for one, am of limited RP imagination, so i need the game mechanics to immerse me into the game.

» Thu Sep 02, 2010 12:06 am

I win buttons appeared with Oblivion:
- No skill related combat (as above)

Now, see.... if you said "I didn't like the more-action-oriented combat style of Oblivion", I'd understand. Since it *is* somewhat more action-style - player skill rather than a combination of player & character skill determining "hits".

But since you can still get beat up, still have to be careful, still need to build up your combat skills and stats & improve your equipment..... I don't see how it's an "I win button".

- Minigames (throwing skill development down the toilets because people just cant wait to be gods on whatever)

Odd.

I've always needed to build up my Security skill to get past the higher difficulty locks (need the higher skill so that less tumbers fall when I break a pick), and I've always needed to build up my Speechcraft, Personality, and Fame in order to improve my standing with NPCs. (disclaimer - I did not, until last week, realize you could still "bribe" once you hit the NPC's current maximum disposition with you. And never used exploits like screwing with drawn weapons/etc. So, when I wanted to try a mod last month that required me to buy the Chorral house, I spent quite a long time doing quests to raise fame, gaining levels to improve my personality, building up my Speechcraft, etc.... to get the Countess to the point that she'd sell me the house.)

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 4:23 pm

Enough realism that suits the world the game is in. If it seems and feels practical in the game world, then I am content.

Thins like eating and sleeping and drinking are all micromanagement crap that I do not like. If they tried to force that on me, it would be the first thing I modded out. I like to play games for the game, not repeat what I already do in real life.

What you already do in real life? You mean you go visiting countries where civil wars are raging, and hungry predators are ready and willing to eat you, and temperatures frequently dip below freezing, and then go -- taking only what you can carry -- traipsing off into the wilderness for days on end picking fights, and gathering loot? I doubt it.

One of the main challenges for the player in a well-orchestrated RPG is figuring out how you, as this other person, this vulnerable human, is going to pull off such an astounding feat. If you're immune to hunger, thirst, fatigue, and cold, then it isn't such an astounding feat, is it?

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 12:40 pm

as far as hunger, thirst, fatigue, and maybe cold go, there's no reason people should be arguing because if these things are in it's probably gonna be optional.

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 6:40 pm

But it does. :confused:

I would argue that the user interface telling you that your character is hungry does not help you identify with the character or his situation.
In New Vegas, you never really feel it, see it, or sense it in any other way than through the user interface telling you, and being quite literally "told" by your pip-boy that you are hungry instead of having an actual immersive game experience where you interpret your characters' hunger through sensing it from his behavior or composure, or some other way that even I haven't thought of.

This might be a strange argument but I'll give it a go.

I would argue that eating food is to some extent instinctive. You feel hungry, you try to find something to eat.
Some people on the forums have said that eating is very important, much like dodging a strike directed at your character. Well how is it that I am never told when to dodge a strike. It is simply because know how to do that (even as a player it is instinctive), if I was told "Uh-Oh! You better dodge now!" Before being hit I would find that to be annoying, and even feel like I wasn't really "in" the game when that message popped up.

Now, you spotting your characters' hunger without any aid of the user interface will be very hard, your characters breath might smell worse if he hadn't eaten in a while or you might hear his stomach growling. That might be a way of spotting hunger in-game without it really pulling you away from the game. But other than that, you would almost need to medically examine your character to see any signs of hunger manifesting physically.

In fallout New Vegas that message is sent out by your pip-boy that constantly monitors the state of your body and tells you when you're hungry. In real life such a message would not be needed, you instinctively know that you are hungry when you are. For obvious reasons you will not have a pip-boy in the elder scrolls, and the invention of a hunger-monitoring device or magic would seem quite redundant in a world like Tamriel. I would however think that having your stomach growling in-game would be rather amusing, especially when sneaking your stomach would growl and expose you to enemies in a cave. This is something that might realistically happen, and I think this would be the only actual way of implementing it without making it "pull you out of the game" so to speak.

However I don't think dieing from hunger is ever really funny or immersive, and I find the idea of dieing from hunger when your inventory is full of food to be quite simply idiotic. Of course you can blame that on the player not paying attention, but I can't personally feel the NEED to eat and I don't feel the imminent consequences of not eating properly.

Edit: So basically what I am saying is that I'm fine with realism as long as it's realistic realism.

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 3:09 pm

If it's implemented in a similar fashion to Fallout: New Vegas (hardcoe Mode), then I'll be satisfied with that. I don't see the point in making it mandatory.

I actually enjoyed playing hardcoe mode in F:NV. In my opinion, it would be quite immersive to see my character go about a mission, like hiking up to a temple in the mountains and collecting a rare artifact and then returning it to X faction, and having to think about things like how much food and water to take, which weapons I'll need because I can't take them all. This would be a legitimate concern for a 'real' treasure hunter or adventuring party. Things like encumbrance and stamina come into play as well - do I wear my steel full plate? Or do I go with more practical, lighter leather armour, since I'll be hiking long distances? I have to admit, swimming in full plate has always been a bit of an immersion-breaker! It also plays into the strengths of different class builds - archers/woodsmen might not need to take food, because they're planning to hunt/trap animals for example.

This is of course a personal preference, but I would enjoy the set of challenges this type of game would bring. On the other hand, I could just enforce this set of rules myself without the game engine doing it for me... But that's not quite the same is it? Taking food and water with you, knowing that if things got tough, you wouldn't REALLY need them.

Perhaps a set of preferences could be used. However, I find that solution an unlikely one since I imagine it would be difficult to balance the entire game for such a wide range of playstyles. Better to go with one or two options and do them well, and let the modding community create the rest.

» Thu Sep 02, 2010 12:29 am

I would argue that the user interface telling you that your character is hungry does not help you identify with the character or his situation.
In New Vegas, you never really feel it, see it, or sense it in any other way than through the user interface telling you, and being quite literally "told" by your pip-boy that you are hungry instead of having an actual immersive game experience where you interpret your characters' hunger through sensing it from his behavior or composure, or some other way that even I haven't thought of.

This might be a strange argument but I'll give it a go.

I would argue that eating food is to some extent instinctive. You feel hungry, you try to find something to eat.
Some people on the forums have said that eating is very important, much like dodging a strike directed at your character. Well how is it that I am never told when to dodge a strike. It is simply because know how to do that (even as a player it is instinctive), if I was told "Uh-Oh! You better dodge now!" Before being hit I would find that to be annoying, and even feel like I wasn't really "in" the game when that message popped up.

Now, you spotting your characters' hunger without any aid of the user interface will be very hard, your characters breath might smell worse if he hadn't eaten in a while or you might hear his stomach growling. That might be a way of spotting hunger in-game without it really pulling you away from the game. But other than that, you would almost need to medically examine your character to see any signs of hunger manifesting physically.

In fallout New Vegas that message is sent out by your pip-boy that constantly monitors the state of your body and tells you when you're hungry. In real life such a message would not be needed, you instinctively know that you are hungry when you are. For obvious reasons you will not have a pip-boy in the elder scrolls, and the invention of a hunger-monitoring device or magic would seem quite redundant in a world like Tamriel. I would however think that having your stomach growling in-game would be rather amusing, especially when sneaking your stomach would growl and expose you to enemies in a cave. This is something that might realistically happen, and I think this would be the only actual way of implementing it without making it "pull you out of the game" so to speak.

However I don't think dieing from hunger is ever really funny or immersive, and I find the idea of dieing from hunger when your inventory is full of food to be quite simply idiotic. Of course you can blame that on the player not paying attention, but I can't personally feel the NEED to eat and I don't feel the imminent consequences of not eating properly.

Edit: So basically what I am saying is that I'm fine with realism as long as it's realistic realism.

You're right - to an extent.

A game can't *MAKE* you feel hungry anymore than it can induce you into feeling thirsty. However, let's go further. Games use subtle cues to evoke emotions: a change in pace (musical score) or a shift in camera position. Do you find them obstrusive? The fact such devices were borrowed from cinema, where they have been used for ages and are perfectly internalized by the educated viewer.

So could this paradigm work for hunger or fatigue? I do realize there's a difference between emotions and bodily functions, but can't we apply the same model here?

Body language.

Instead of/in conjunction with those messages warning you, couldn't you character behave in a slightly different way?

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:44 am

I would argue that the user interface telling you that your character is hungry does not help you identify with the character or his situation.
In New Vegas, you never really feel it, see it, or sense it in any other way than through the user interface telling you, and being quite literally "told" by your pip-boy that you are hungry instead of having an actual immersive game experience where you interpret your characters' hunger through sensing it from his behavior or composure, or some other way that even I haven't thought of.

This might be a strange argument but I'll give it a go.

I would argue that eating food is to some extent instinctive. You feel hungry, you try to find something to eat.
Some people on the forums have said that eating is very important, much like dodging a strike directed at your character. Well how is it that I am never told when to dodge a strike. It is simply because know how to do that (even as a player it is instinctive), if I was told "Uh-Oh! You better dodge now!" Before being hit I would find that to be annoying, and even feel like I wasn't really "in" the game when that message popped up.

Now, you spotting your characters' hunger without any aid of the user interface will be very hard, your characters breath might smell worse if he hadn't eaten in a while or you might hear his stomach growling. That might be a way of spotting hunger in-game without it really pulling you away from the game. But other than that, you would almost need to medically examine your character to see any signs of hunger manifesting physically.

In fallout New Vegas that message is sent out by your pip-boy that constantly monitors the state of your body and tells you when you're hungry. In real life such a message would not be needed, you instinctively know that you are hungry when you are. For obvious reasons you will not have a pip-boy in the elder scrolls, and the invention of a hunger-monitoring device or magic would seem quite redundant in a world like Tamriel. I would however think that having your stomach growling in-game would be rather amusing, especially when sneaking your stomach would growl and expose you to enemies in a cave. This is something that might realistically happen, and I think this would be the only actual way of implementing it without making it "pull you out of the game" so to speak.

However I don't think dieing from hunger is ever really funny or immersive, and I find the idea of dieing from hunger when your inventory is full of food to be quite simply idiotic. Of course you can blame that on the player not paying attention, but I can't personally feel the NEED to eat and I don't feel the imminent consequences of not eating properly.

Edit: So basically what I am saying is that I'm fine with realism as long as it's realistic realism.

You're right - to an extent.

A game can't *MAKE* you feel hungry anymore than it can induce you into feeling thirsty. However, let's go further. Games use subtle cues to evoke emotions: a change in pace (musical score) or a camera shift. Do you find them obstrusive? In fact such devices were borrowed from cinema, where they have been used for ages and are perfectly internalized by the audiences.

So could this paradigm work for hunger or fatigue? I do realize there's a difference between emotions and bodily functions, but can't we apply the same model here?

Body language.

Instead of/in conjunction with those messages warning you, couldn't you character behave in a slightly different manner?

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 12:58 pm

Stamina could be affected as well as the character's vision. "getting tired"

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 11:55 am

I would argue that the user interface telling you that your character is hungry does not help you identify with the character or his situation.
In New Vegas, you never really feel it, see it, or sense it in any other way than through the user interface telling you, and being quite literally "told" by your pip-boy that you are hungry instead of having an actual immersive game experience where you interpret your characters' hunger through sensing it from his behavior or composure, or some other way that even I haven't thought of.

I disagree because user interfaces are exactly what helps you identify with your character and his situation. In a pen-and-paper session of D&D, the dungeon master doesn't whap you upside the head to immerse you in the feeling that your character is injured. He only tells you, and there is nothing anti-immersive about it. You have a character sheet, a pencil, and a pile of dice in front of you, and a friend telling you what is happening to and around your character. Add in your imagination, and that is all that is required for immersion.

Hearing our stomachs rumbling would be a nice touch for indicating hunger. Having the screen temporarily dim, and finding our character climbing back up from the ground afterward, might be an entertaining way to let us know that the poor guy needs some rest. The traditional health and fatigue bars are also good, though maybe not as enjoyable, ways to let us know our character is in poor shape.

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 1:18 pm

You're right - to an extent.

A game can't *MAKE* you feel hungry anymore than it can induce you into feeling thirsty. However, let's go further. Games use subtle cues to evoke emotions: a change in pace (musical score) or a camera shift. Do you find them obstrusive? In fact such devices were borrowed from cinema, where they have been used for ages and are perfectly internalized by the audiences.

So could this paradigm work for hunger or fatigue? I do realize there's a difference between emotions and bodily functions, but can't we apply the same model here?

Body language.

Instead of/in conjunction with those messages warning you, couldn't you character behave in a slightly different manner?

As for camera shifts and music, I can't really imagine how hunger would be portrayed in that sense. I suppose your character could behave in a slightly different manner, but this is being a RPG, some would feel that you as "the character" should be in control and "the character" not suddenly have a mind of his own by behaving in a certain manner.

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 2:32 pm

This is a split question. In terms of game mechanics, I love tons of realism. That's why I always download the Food mods, Hunger Mods, Thirst Mods, Sleep Mods, etc ... because Bethesda included thousands of items to discover in the game that are essentially worthless in terms of monetary value, and I hate finding all of that crap when there is no use for it in the game. However, a bedroll becomes important when you need to sleep. A frying pan becomes important when you must cook your food to eat. Apples and small fruits and vegetables become important when you're hungry but don't want to cook something just at that moment. All that luxurious food added to the shops and stores now has a purpose in the game. I love it when everything has a purpose, so I need those REALISM mods to give everything a reason to be there.

In terms of graphics, I like high-quality graphics, but don't always need realistic art styles, but rather prefer very stylized art for an RPG. At the same time as some rather huge MMORPG's came out with very realistic graphics, Blizzard's WoW came out. I loved it far more than anything else due to the art STYLE that wasn't realistic, but instead more cartoonish yet not too childish looking, still cool, just cartoonish. I never found a realistic-looking game that ever made me feel the sense of fantasy WoW gave me for its day. Morrowind was another example... some of its graphics were realistic, like the water and stones, and flowers, but the art STYLE was way too bizarre and alien to match our reality, so I felt it was not realistic, but instead very awesome FOR that.

Let the art style remain eccentric, but put realism in small touches, but do what you can to keep the fantasy games feeling more ... fantastical (haha) ... that's the way I see it. But for gameplay mechanics, I certainly love more realism. If I get surprised attacked, I should experience sheer sudden terror unless I'm a seasoned warrior, in which case I should not. If I am running on ice with smooth-bottomed boots, maybe I should slip and fall... and if I don't drink any water for 48 hours, I might get weak and need a drink. That kind of realism makes my gaming experience a lot better.