Assumptions, assumptions,assumptions. False dilemmas. Patronizing.
This post is a monument to flawed logic.

You want the stuff you enjoy fully implemented in the game while that which you deem micromanagement assumed. On the other hand, i would like both implemented, HC being optional.

Now,

Can you spot the difference?

Then don't play HC mode.
Still, if you want to play it, but are not satisfied wit FONV one, then I understand all the complaining.
Then again, if you find it to be a pain no matter what and decide not to play it, then don't.
HC mod is equal to difficulty slider and graphics options, everyone sets their own settings and enjoys the game.
Also, I could say that fighting is also a tedious chore since you do it every now and then and is practically forced on you.
Having a real adventure without having to consider some of main body functions is not a real adventure, it's just going to a silly little walk around the house where cat may jump in front of you every now and then and scare you.
Lucky for me, I think that we will have to at least eat in the game since stuff like cooking has been confirmed to be in if I'm not wrong.
Just hope there's drinking and sleeping in there also. ^_^

Edit:
Also, all this automatic/instant eating/drinking stuff is just nonsense.
There is almost no point in eating/drinking if I don't actually use it.
I'm not hooked up in infusion as if I'm in hospital (witch at the time can be really cool when you feel cool liquid flowing trough your veins and it's hot outside, but Sithis help you if your nurse didn't insert needle properly in your arm when she is about to give you some antibiotics via infusion because you will be in world of pain) and can eat myself, thank you.
Also, I would like to have a seat in a tavern, order myself some mead and mutton and then enjoy eating it while listening to bard playing music and probably watching two drunkards having a brawl.
Hell, when I'm done with my meal I could even join in that brawl!
Or I could just grab the lute and join that bard in a duet (in case they implement instruments and us being able to play them).
Also, smoking should also be in.
I would prefer to smoke a pipe since I do so in real life.
:foodndrink:

A solution, I think, would be to have an "equipment" slot for rations in which you can drop any food you're cool with eating.

I think the biggest problem with hunger and thirst requirements is that Beth games are just way too small. You're never more five minutes from a town or major city, and so you're never at risk of actually starving to death. Even if you're short on cash, there are crates full of unattended foodstuffs to pilfer from. Because there is never any risk of actual death, the mechanic is simply a chore, requiring you to slam down some cheeseburgers every time you fast travel a quarter of the way across the map. This is then exacerbated by the hastened speed at which you become hungry or thirst.

If the mechanic took a more central role in the gameplay (see: Minecraft resource hunting), it would feel a lot less like a chore and more of a challenge in the same way loot hunting and dungeon delving is. If hunting actually generates reward, it wouldn't seem so useless. But as said before, with such small maps I really don't see this being possible. I think it's better to have the realism focus on other aspects of the game and just give food health/stamina restoring properties.

There is nothing wrong with the idea of a survival mode in a post apocalyptic wasteland with next to no flora, irradiated water and dangerous wildlife, I just cannot see the point in a land with plenty of clean water, and plants everywhere. I am not against the idea as an option if anyone really wants it, I just cannot see how it could possibly be implemented to anyone's satisfaction in what is, after a fashion, Cyrodiil with extra mountains.

that's not the point, people do it in oblivion anyway, because it adds to roleplay, to structure, routine, immersion, whatever you want to call it. it adds depth.

I think it should only effect fatigue and magika regenereation at first because not eating for 2 days won't make you die quicker. It should also temporarilly lower your strength. I would be against this if the days are short on the game.

True.
Also, I believe that lot of TES players are probably also fans of Hobbit, LotR and similar books (actually, every single TES player I know personally is) and that they would enjoy to be bale to eat/drink/sleep in order to help them with their RPing.
Still, all stuff like playing instruments, smoking, eating, drinking, sleeping and lot of similar things that lot of BRILLIANT people will complain about are all there for RP purposes and are not useless at all since TES is RPG and should let us to mother forbidden-loving (since F-word is not allowed) role play by giving us enough material.
And no, no stuff like 'Just eat something every now and then if you want.'
That's just plain silly and equal to one comment witch said that if you want to pay for fast travel to make it more believable, you should drop some money on the ground every time you plan to do it (not to mention that you can't drop the money on the ground).

That works with the minor "food/water" stuff (as demonstrated by FO:NV). But some of the things people are asking for in other "I want more realism" threads would be a bit more difficult (or time/cost prohibitive) to have as a set of toggle options.


(At some point in one of the other threads, someone said something along the lines of "more options = always better". To which I replied.... no, not always. Less options that had enough development time spent on them / better game focus, would be better than many options done halfway & a game that's not sure what it's trying to be.)

...heck, that might even have been this thread, not sure anymore. They're all starting to blur together into one big mush of "realism/immersion!" :tongue:

I think they'd have to be careful to find a good balance with realism, otherwise it could become real frustrating real quick. I'd still love to see an option where your character suffers some ill effects for not eating and sleeping. It doesn't need to be something frustrating where you need to stop what you're doing and eat or go to bed, but after say a day of not eating and/or sleeping, your body should start having issues. Attributes and skills that require physical energy should temporarily go down, until you eat/sleep as necessary. If you never eat or sleep, your health should just keep dropping until you eventually die of starvation and/or sleep deprivation. It would be funny to see hallucinations after several days with no sleep or if your character starts stumbling due to being overtired, especially on more snowy/icy terrains. It should only happen say every 24 hours of gameplay, or if that's too soon maybe every 3 days or something like that. Something as simple as eating a loaf of bread and taking an hour long nap (not just resting) should be enough to refresh you back to normal for a while. Kind of like vampirism where you had to feed or some of your attributes and skills would be affected by the disease as more time went on.

If they were to implement this, they would have to have ways for you to camp out when out exploring the wilderness. A bedroll, a frying pan, the ability to hunt/forage, and the ability to chop wood and start a fire should be all you need.

Now, since this game takes place in the North, would they also take hypothermia into account? Then you would definitely need to be able to start a fire and possibly a tent to sleep in.

They could always put some toggles in the menu. Enable realistic hunger/sleep cycle --> check/uncheck and Enable realistic climate effects on player --> check/uncheck


I'm not a game developer so I don't really know how possible it is to do something like this and really, I'm sure Bethesda will have some semblance of realism that we'll all be happy with.

Since you're going to be able to have vocations in Skyrim, It would be nice if you were a lumberjack and you could chop down trees and make a pro bridge to use later. If you're not skilled you can chop down a single tree and balance over it but somehow it will break or fall into the river. Also, it would be freaking awesome if you could build a little tent-thing and a campfire. And the tent-thing could be pro or simple like the bridge. A pro one who will be there a couple of weeks and by time it gets more and more damaged (Works on the pro bridge aswell). You should be able to survive in the wild, that's my point in this.

I've long been of the opinion that despite what people say, they don't actually want "realism." What they want is an idealized version of "realism" that isn't very real at all. For example, Inevitably things like "balance" begin to creep into such discussions when "realism" isn't balanced at all.

LOL...Thank you! I've been trying to figure out what the concept of Skyrim reminded me of. It reminds me of Into The Wild - They should get Eddie Vedder to do the soundtrack! LOL

well of course,
if we're taking about games we're talking about illusion,
it's the illusion of realism we're after,
obviously.

I have to agree with this.
I don't want a "fallout-hardcoe-mode" but wouldn't mind it as an option.

I want it so real that female characters menstruate!

Nah, just kidding. Some realism, but no penalties for forgoing eating and drinking. I think bonuses should be given if you keep an eating and sleeping schedule. However, I might find constant eat-sleep to get in the way of having fun if my character is crippled for skipping breakfast.

Oh dear, I might have inadvertently ruffled a few feathers, so hopefully without ambiguity :
Nothing whatsoever against optional hardcoe/survival mode
but, and this is my opinion and I don't claim it is anything more than opinion,

There are many realism/hardcoe/survival mode options which would add to any number of games, such as the need for food,water and sleep, chemical addictions, advanced fatigue mechanics, frostbite or other exposure effects, and so on,
however
We are dealing with a game with a highly accelerated day/night cycle (ratio of sleep/food cycles to quest lengths skewed),
a relatively cluttered map (you are never going to be that far from a settlement),
a large amount of harvestable plants (food finding will not be that difficult),
water everywhere ( you really should not be adventuring in Skyrim if you don't know to boil the snow),
and to me the clincher which makes a mockery of many realism ideas :
there is a whole school of magic devoted to restoration, which includes healing wounds, restoring fatigue, curing diseases, poisons and curses, and which is so powerful that a journeyman can cast a spell which cures just about all non magical diseases.

This is why, although I have no objection to an option for a realism/survival mode if people want it, I personally, for this particular series of games, simply cannot see the point.

obviously, the point is it's fun.
for some people, it's fun.
that's the point.

Well, at the end of the day (and probably at the beginning of the day), I'm going to play this game and enjoy it regardless of whether or not they require my character to pee regularly or risk soiling myself and having the NPCs disposition towards me drop due to smelling like a dead slaughterfish.

Some realism, some logic to how the world works but I don't play games to go shopping or cook, I do that in real life

How about having no penalties when you get hit by an enemy and only receive bonuses when you hit them instead? >.>

All I meant to say with my initial argument is that it should not break your immersion if the only indication of your character's hunger is a "you are very hungry" message from the game interface. A computer RPG can do a great job of letting you see what your character sees and of letting you hear what your character hears. For everything else your character senses, such as hunger and pain, the game can only present it in the abstract. Those abstractions are meant to be accepted by the player as conventions, and to used by the player to aid his imagination, not to break it.

For me, it would be good enough to see that my character's fatigue bar is low, perhaps with a little "H" beside it for Hunger. If your fatigue is low, then you might also detect something amiss when your character's skills aren't working as well as they ought. Hearing stomach growls (nice idea) would make the experience of your character's hunger even better.

In before thread close. :tes:

The more real skyrim is, the better. However it could be used to limit the player by alot.

^^ :tes: all the way

Allow me to clarify. I was referring to a balance of how much realism to put into gameplay so as not to be too frustrating for the player. I think you are taking the comment a bit too literally. I mean, games are becoming more realistic as AI improves, but do you really want to micromanage every aspect of, say the act of eating to satiate your character's hunger? Yes, you can initiate the act of eating but then a little animation should take over to show your character eating. You wouldn't have to manually make your character...sheath sword...strap shield over back...bend to one knee...open backpack...take out loaf of bread...put loaf of bread down...close backpack...sit down...pick up loaf of bread...dust dirt off loaf of bread...hold loaf of bread in both hands...break off piece of bread with one hand while holding loaf in the other...insert piece of bread into mouth...chew piece of bread...swallow piece of chewed up bread...rub belly...repeat...

That, to me, would be extremely realistic, but extremely frustrating. However, selecting a loaf of bread to eat from the list of items in my inventory in order to satisfy my character's hunger doesn't sound so daunting and the fact that my character became hungry and I had to eat something also adds some realism, IMO anyway.