Realistic Population : V - Skyrim

» Wed Jul 20, 2011 7:13 am

As I have stated numerous times on your previous thread, I prefer the Morrowind and Oblivion approach.
I prefer scaling to a degree where things that absolutely do not matter to the PC simply are not in the game.

I dont really care what hyperbole you slap on it, I dislike NPC's that are nothing more than moving scenery, a la mass effect or dragon age. Aside from the reasons I have stated before on why I prefer fleshed out NPC's, filler NPC's (like NPC's visibly essential) are spoilers, or spoiler inducing.
'This guy has a name. He must have a quest.'
No please.

If you prefer things that do not matter to the PC being in the game, how do you feel about

1) being able to pick up objects just for the sake of it (like a pot?)
2) Having all of those houses with no quests to go inside and do something in there?
3) Large open worlds that have been designed from the ground up to give you a sense of REALISM and depth?
4) Having random dialogue about other countries affairs (hearing about morrowind in oblivion?)

» Wed Jul 20, 2011 12:34 am

Starting New thread to discuss Realistic populations in Skyrim

Link to Old thread: http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1210902-realistic-population/

Original post from Old thread

"When I look back at oblivion, one of the most glaring inconsistencies was the size of cities and their populations. I know that one of the focal points for bethesda is creating realistic, polished NPC's but it is underwhelming when you look at the majestic imperial city with its population of what, 100? I praise bethesda for the quality in their AI, but perhaps they should spend some time increasing city size and population, even if it is at the expense of a few dungeons and mountains. However, if this expansion comes with Fallout 3 style generic npcs (i.e. Megaton settler), forget it. Any thoughts? "

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I believe that More NPCs per village/town/city should be in the game. A realistic number determined by how many houses are there and how average population (determined by Bethesda of course)

But a city the size of The Imperial City should have 300-400 NPCs inside of it, as in it's current form felt like a ghost town. I am not saying increase the amount of houses, but how many people live in each house, as most houses in Oblivion have 1 resident.

So, a quick little idea

Whiterun - Small Village - 10 houses - NPCs in village should be about 30

Random Town - Average town - 30 houses - NPC count should be around 100

Main Cities - Fairly large city (IC size) - 100 houses - NPC count around 350

As villages/Towns/Cities grow in real life we usually have beggers and slums, thus increasing the average population from 3/house to 3.5/house.

And thats how i believe it would make for a far more realistic world.

Oh my god, this is so wrong. Whiterun is a major city. Yeah. That's how big they are. Why don't people get this? I have said this to people at LEAST 30 times, probably closer to 50. Why are people still thinking the major cities will be IC sized??? On a slightly more positive note, I'm pretty sure Whiterun has more than 10 houses.

» Wed Jul 20, 2011 2:47 pm

If you prefer things that do not matter to the PC being in the game, how do you feel about

1) being able to pick up objects just for the sake of it (like a pot?)
2) Having all of those houses with no quests to go inside and do something in there?
3) Large open worlds that have been designed from the ground up to give you a sense of REALISM and depth?
4) Having random dialogue about other countries affairs (hearing about morrowind in oblivion?)

Yes, but that is exactly what I mean, really.
I love how in Elder Scrolls you can pick cutlery up from a table. In other games stuff is usually glued to a table.
I love how in an Elder Scrolls game you can talk to every NPC.
What always dissapoints me about a game like mass effect is exactly what you are saying.
It has none of that, and it has filler NPC's.

I prefer the Elder Scrolls way.

I am talking about scaling.
About things that do not matter simply not appearing.
Of course the Imperial city isnt that small, only the pieces of interest to the PC were in the game. That is what I mean.
I would much prefer scaling to the point where scenery NPC's are simply not in the game so that the other NPC's can be better than I would prefer a handful of meaningful NPC's and loads of scenery ones.
I really dont need the game to account for every single minor detail of the world it is portraying, as long as the important stuff, the stuff that helps my roleplaying, is there.

» Wed Jul 20, 2011 8:52 am

Oh my god, this is so wrong. Whiterun is a major city. Yeah. That's how big they are. Why don't people get this? I have said this to people at LEAST 30 times, probably closer to 50. Why are people still thinking the major cities will be IC sized??? On a slightly more positive note, I'm pretty sure Whiterun has more than 10 houses.

I was just making an example, just calm down a little.

Yes, but that is exactly what I mean, really.
I love how in Elder Scrolls you can pick cutlery up from a table. In other games stuff is usually glued to a table.
I love how in an Elder Scrolls game you can talk to every NPC.
What always dissapoints me about a game like mass effect is exactly what you are saying.
It has none of that, and it has filler NPC's.

I prefer the Elder Scrolls way.

I am talking about scaling.
About things that do not matter simply not appearing.
Of course the Imperial city isnt that small, only the pieces of interest to the PC were in the game. That is what I mean.

And what you personally found interesting is one department i found lacking. Why couldn't we have gotten 5 dock-workers in the Harbor in the Imperial City with random names who simply said "Sorry friend, i have too much work to do right now to chat"

» Wed Jul 20, 2011 4:15 am

I was just making an example, just calm down a little.

Sorry, I just get tired of people who make baseless assumptions on the size of cities that I know are only setting themselves (and the many who believe them) up for major dissapointment, which happense often. Do you think you could adjust the OP to use an example more likely to be accurate to the game settlement size?

» Wed Jul 20, 2011 9:15 am

Sorry, I just get tired of people who make baseless assumptions on the size of cities that I know are only setting themselves (and the many who believe them) up for major dissapointment, which happense often. Do you think you could adjust the OP to use an example more likely to be accurate to the game settlement size?

Quick change to OP, took out pretty meaningless first section of each example

now looks like

Small Village

Medium Town

Large City

As for adjusting the actual ratio's concerning sizes of each, these were three examples Bethesda used. In that they said we had 5 main cities, about 9? towns and a few more smaller villages located about the place.

» Wed Jul 20, 2011 2:09 am

I dont really care what hyperbole you slap on it, I dislike NPC's that are nothing more than moving scenery, a la mass effect or dragon age. Aside from the reasons I have stated before on why I prefer fleshed out NPC's, filler NPC's (like NPC's visibly essential) are spoilers, or spoiler inducing.
'This guy has a name. He must have a quest.'
No please.

Well, nobody should have a name visible to you, unless:

1. It's your character.
2. You were introduced (either in person, or seeing that person on a portrait somewhere)
3. They told you a name (which might not even be their name, just the one they want you to know).
4. You decided to name them for yourself (in which case, it's the nickname you chose for that person, for example "Necro-Babe" for that one alchemist in Skingrad ...)

Until then, they all should be generic "Bandit", "Necromancer", "Whiterun Town Guard", "Riften Citizen", "Azura Worshipper", "Tavern Patron" and so on, depending on where they are and what they are doing currently.

» Wed Jul 20, 2011 1:40 am

Well, nobody should have a name visible to you, unless:

1. It's your character.
2. You were introduced (either in person, or seeing that person on a portrait somewhere)
3. They told you a name (which might not even be their name, just the one they want you to know).
4. You decided to name them for yourself (in which case, it's the nickname you chose for that person, for example "Necro-Babe" for that one alchemist in Skingrad ...)

Until then, they all should be generic "Bandit", "Necromancer", "Whiterun Town Guard", "Riften Citizen", "Azura Worshipper", "Tavern Patron" and so on, depending on where they are and what they are doing currently.

No, that will get old really fast.
I really dont want to introduce myself to 200 NPC's and click through the same 'Hi, I am.." dialogue each time.
The game does that for me, and that is fine.

» Wed Jul 20, 2011 1:34 pm

No, that will get old really fast.
I really dont want to introduce myself to 200 NPC's and click through the same 'Hi, I am.." dialogue each time.

So don't. If only 20 characters matter for your character, then that's fine too.

» Wed Jul 20, 2011 1:01 pm

In a few years time the lack of people,buildings etc is the thing that`ll really make Oblivion look dated rather than the graphics.A convincing living world must have more than 100 people in its capital city.If they can make make computers clever enough to beat chess grandmasters,they can certainly make ones that`ll fashion up some extra people amongst all the scripted ones - That`s got to be several orders of magnitude easier.For example,making extra characters who just walk along roads can`t be too programmatically difficult-I can`t write a program that`ll beat Gary Kasparov,but even I can program a Pac Man game(and I have done).It would be nice to feel like I was in a real world rather than a game world-Oblivions gameplay is almost perfect.But after a while the emptiness grates-Why do people make so many mods to try to address this if this isn`t a defect?

» Wed Jul 20, 2011 1:53 am

It's about adding options Merari, not limiting what people can achieve.

If you feel that if Khad's idea means you HAVE to talk to hundreds of NPCs then so be it, but limiting the number of NPCs per city is unfair to those that like the option of just sitting back and watching as a town comes to life when you get there at 6 in the morning and watch the sun creep over the hills and people going to work.

» Wed Jul 20, 2011 7:38 am

My two cents:

It's better to have the megaton settlers who do not engage into a converation with the player, but simply saying something useful about the area such as "If you'r looking for a blacksmith ________ is your man.", instead of engaging with the layer into a conversation without a single dialogue option other than rumors, which then would say the exact same thing.

The is a small note thing here though, it wouldn't be that hard to add names to them all. But even then, I have no idea how the player character can know everyone's names in the first place. If I'd get to choose, I'd name everyone what their are, such as blacksmith or Riverwood citizen or something. After a dialogue with them you could be able to learn their name, the more secretive wouldn't give up that information easily, while most would simply be like "where are my manners, the name is ________".

And merari, many NPC's did say their name to you even when you already knew it, which just felt kinda silly.

» Tue Jul 19, 2011 11:14 pm

No, that will get old really fast.
I really dont want to introduce myself to 200 NPC's and click through the same 'Hi, I am.." dialogue each time.
The game does that for me, and that is fine.

Sounds like you pretty much want Skyrim to be a 1st person hack-and-slash, not an RPG.

» Wed Jul 20, 2011 8:12 am

and anyone who has used the less generic NPCs mod knows that generic NPCs are just a blank tapestry

Yes, but an useful black tapestry.

After all, they don't need many dialogue themselves. You don't usually go talking to everybody you see in the street.

» Wed Jul 20, 2011 12:07 am

As far as I remember, Billy Creel in Megaton in Fallout3 was no quest giver, was no part of the main quest or a side quest, but he had a name, he had a house, he had unique appearence (eyepatch), he had a backstory (Maggie) and he had things to talk about, just for the sake of it.

If all the NPCs could be like him, that would be cool.

» Wed Jul 20, 2011 4:12 am

So you liked the "Ghost Town" effect that was found in Oblivion?

What ghost town effect? Aside from the oddly large amount of people who were single, the population fit sizes of the "cities" fine.

» Wed Jul 20, 2011 8:29 am

What ghost town effect? Aside from the oddly large amount of people who were single, the population fit sizes of the "cities" fine.

I think you play games with an intense purpose. You probably complete the main quest first, do a couple of side quests and then you're done?

Other people, like myself, enjoy roaming around cities feeling a certain buzz of life, which is completely non-existent in Oblivion. Not everything needs to have a purpose, or you could even argue that not having a purpose is a purpose in itself. I know, it's getting complicated =)

» Wed Jul 20, 2011 6:04 am

As I have stated numerous times on your previous thread, I prefer the Morrowind and Oblivion approach.
I prefer scaling to a degree where things that absolutely do not matter to the PC simply are not in the game.

I dont really care what hyperbole you slap on it, I dislike NPC's that are nothing more than moving scenery, a la mass effect or dragon age. Aside from the reasons I have stated before on why I prefer fleshed out NPC's, filler NPC's (like NPC's visibly essential) are spoilers, or spoiler inducing.
'This guy has a name. He must have a quest.'
No please.

I see what your saying, to a point. I agree that there shouldn't be filler NPCs with names like "Imperial City Resident" that you can't talk to.... such as the filler NPCs in Fallout New Vegas, which also lacked any sort of schedule.

However, Oblivion had a few "filler" NPCs as well. I mean, what do you call a town resident with a name, who never has a quest, that you can't do anything with but talk to about "Rumors"? I'd call them moving scenery... and if you remove them, your left with nothing but quest/shop related NPCs. Which points to the broken part of your logic: If you scale the game "to a degree where things that absolutely do not matter to the PC simply are not in the game", you wouldn't have NPCs in the game unless they were shop owners, or had quests. Which means every NPC would be a spoiler. So I really can't see how you can be both against filler NPCs, and against knowing which NPCs have quests unless you talk to them.... since every NPC without a quest IS a filler.

So unless you want the world filled with nothing but quest giving NPCs, and shop owners... you NEED "moving scenery fillers". However as I said, I agree they shouldn't be un-named bots that just stand there 24 hours a day. Bethesda should make sure all the filler NPC's....

1. Have a name.
2. Have a schedule.
3. Have a home (unless homeless)
4. Are interactive.

They don't have to be the life of the party, but they shouldn't be stationary bots either.

» Wed Jul 20, 2011 7:28 am

I think you play games with an intense purpose. You probably complete the main quest first, do a couple of side quests and then you're done?

Other people, like myself, enjoy roaming around cities feeling a certain buzz of life, which is completely non-existent in Oblivion. Not everything needs to have a purpose, or you could even argue that not having a purpose is a purpose in itself. I know, it's getting complicated =)

Uh, no, I never even finished the main story in either Oblivion or Fallout 3. What I don't want was the GTA/Just Cause "NPCs" that other guy was talking about. The randomly generated crowds that only exist while you're near them. I didn't really care about the lack of crowds in the IC because it wasn't a city in any sense of the word. It wasn't even a town, it's a village at best.

» Wed Jul 20, 2011 12:37 am

Bethesda should make sure all the filler NPC's....

1. Have a name.
2. Have a schedule.
3. Have a home (unless homeless)
4. Are interactive.

They don't have to be the life of the party, but they shouldn't be stationary bots either.

Exactly. Keep it the way it was.

The only thing I wish changed regarding population is for NPCs to have families now. No more single townsfolk living alone in huge houses. Even the counts and countesses didn't have families. Then there weren't kids in game though. Maybe the addition of them is a hope for things to change.

» Wed Jul 20, 2011 1:41 am

I started the original thread, and after hearing other people's opinions it seems that there are alternatives to throngs of lifeless AC style npcs. Non permanent npcs that disappear after moving a distance away would be terrible in an ES game for many reasons. As you begin to observe the redundancy of their actions and mindless wandering, you would begin to feel as though they were not anything more than ghosts fading into the shadows. This is what games like just cause, gta, and ac begin to feel like after a while. Instead, I propose that npcs are added ala the simple (but still permanent and "radiant") "mages guild associate" npcs of oblivion. In addition, families will be allowed with the addition of children, so houses can be filled. This will make the streets more vibrant while still maintaining the quality AI characteristic of TES. Finally, spawning, generic npcs could be added to the roads, spawning in a similar manner to bandits. This would make the roads feel less deserted and eliminate the "five bandits to every traveler" feel of oblivion. It could also make for some nice random encounters when the merchants or caravans are attacked.

» Wed Jul 20, 2011 2:12 am

Bethesda should make sure all the filler NPC's....

1. Have a name.
2. Have a schedule.
3. Have a home (unless homeless)
4. Are interactive.

They don't have to be the life of the party, but they shouldn't be stationary bots either.

Easy enough with today's technology.

DwarfFortress NPCs have:

1. A name (obviously), some parts of which they were given at birth, others they acquired due to their history
2. A history (born, married, fought in some war, killed a guy, lost an eye due to some other guy, had three kids, one of which was kidnapped by goblins, moved with the family to another town, created an artefact, stuff like this)
3. Relationships (spouses, parents, kids, friends, lovers, enemies)
4. Likes and dislikes, which influence what items they have, what their clothes are, and what they try to eat and drink if possible
5. A job, which can change with time
6. Tools to do the job, clothing/armour, equipment, other possessions
7. A home (unless homeless)
8. A main god they worship
9. A basic psychological state (basically somewhere between "happy" and "mad", with some insanities overriding those)
10. Permanent damages and disfigurations (lost limbs, scars, diseases) due to their history

... and they all are procedurally generated. Some ten thousand of them (though you can push that value with suitable world generation tweaks to be an order of magnitude higher).

» Wed Jul 20, 2011 12:33 am

1:1 scale = Never going to happen.

» Wed Jul 20, 2011 12:51 am

1:1 scale = Never going to happen.

Of course not, the game would be unbearably massive, it would have to stretch hundreds of miles and contain hundreds of thousands of npcs. No one wants 1:1 scale. However, Oblivion's populous seemed a bit sparse and it would be nice if with advanced software beth could expand population a bit.

» Tue Jul 19, 2011 10:28 pm

1:1 scale = Never going to happen.

Never is a strong word.