Realistic Population : V - Skyrim

» Wed Jul 20, 2011 2:34 pm

There should be a large number of NPCs who you can't interact with, couriers, guards on patrol, people going from A-B. People who don't want to talk to you, or can't and won't. I mean its more realistic then every single person taking the time out to talk to you, because they aren't actually doing anything. I mean if you're in a shop, you can talk to the shop keeper, the staff, and the other customers should just say things like "excuse me" or "good -evening/morning/day/w/e" and "I'm busy sorry" or hell "piss off". Better then the market district having 6-7/8 people in it standing around.

» Wed Jul 20, 2011 8:49 am

Never is a strong word.

We are gong to make a alternate reality that is 1:1 scale from neutrons to the macroscopic? Not in the foreseeable future, or most likely never.

» Wed Jul 20, 2011 10:45 am

We are gong to make a alternate reality that is 1:1 scale from neutrons to the macroscopic? Not in the foreseeable future, or most likely never.

We were at 2d sprites 20 years ago. Video games for the most part didn't exist 20 before that. I see no reason Humanity won't be around for a few million more.

» Tue Jul 19, 2011 11:55 pm

Try to go out and speak with random person, you don't know:
smile and say: Hello
I promise
half will answer with one line (leave me alone, or get away from me, or I don't have time for this, or something like that)
quarter will simply look at you, say nothing and return to their business
fifth will have few line conversation before leaving you
and only few people will speak with you
rest will try to rob or scam you

So having a lot of filler NPCs is nothing strange to me
Most of my surrounding people are filler NPCs to me

» Wed Jul 20, 2011 2:01 am

According to UESP, the imperial city has a total of around 240 NPC's, not counting Guards. Probably 300 total.

» Wed Jul 20, 2011 12:44 pm

Not if they are done like Daggerfalls NPCs (with more resonable numbers of course)

I don't find dozens upon dozens of NPCs wandering aimlessly with no point of origin or destination to be the slightest bit realistic.

» Tue Jul 19, 2011 11:18 pm

Here is an idea, what if major cities had a labor hall. Kind of a boarding house, all of the NPCs assigned to that location would do a 9-5 work session around the city, including building repair/ general maintenance/ anything that needs to be done, and at the end of their shift they head back to the building, eat and sleep. On Friday nights and Saturdays instead of sleeping early they go out and wander the town and hit the pubs. Very simple and they all only need one location to live. The hall could have a NPC running it that provides training on certain skills.

» Wed Jul 20, 2011 10:11 am

Clutter NPCs just show the dev's lack of devotion to making truly unique game characters to liven up the towns.

The way I see it, what's one of the things players will be doing most? Whatever it is, you make that part of gameplay the most interesting part. Players will be walking around in towns a hell of a lot. A way to make that the most interesting is to have the population be as diverse and intriguing as possible.

» Wed Jul 20, 2011 9:54 am

Try to go out and speak with random person, you don't know:
smile and say: Hello
I promise
half will answer with one line (leave me alone, or get away from me, or I don't have time for this, or something like that)
quarter will simply look at you, say nothing and return to their business
fifth will have few line conversation before leaving you
and only few people will speak with you
rest will try to rob or scam you

So having a lot of filler NPCs is nothing strange to me
Most of my surrounding people are filler NPCs to me

I realize where you're coming from, but from my experience people will be very open to talking if you know how to get them to open up. The first step to that is to be interested in the person. I walk up to everyone I see and have conversations wherever I go.

» Wed Jul 20, 2011 5:12 am

I see no reason Humanity won't be around for a few million more.

I see many reasons, but thats not the point, the point is a 1:1 virtual reality (more complex than the Holodeck), which will not happen.

» Wed Jul 20, 2011 7:22 am

Clutter NPCs just show the dev's lack of devotion to making truly unique game characters to liven up the towns.

The way I see it, what's one of the things players will be doing most? Whatever it is, you make that part of gameplay the most interesting part. Players will be walking around in towns a hell of a lot. A way to make that the most interesting is to have the population be as diverse and intriguing as possible.

There is a limit to the amount of fully interactive NPCs you can have in a game right now, but if you simply added non-interactive too, you'd get the best of both worlds. Its more realistic too.

» Wed Jul 20, 2011 2:20 pm

I realize where you're coming from, but from my experience people will be very open to talking if you know how to get them to open up. The first step to that is to be interested in the person. I walk up to everyone I see and have conversations wherever I go.

That's where Radiant Story kicks in
Lets just say filler NPC initially have no interest in you "Dragonwho? Damn, your mom must be one perverse [censored]"
But when you recieve quest involving some character Radiant Story assigns name to random filler NPC and allows it to have advance conversation with you, so that you can speak with this NPC
And depending on quest this filler NPC can stay as special NPC (maybe become your enemy or friendly greet you when you pass by
So that Filler NPCs can be used for quests (for example Dark Brotherhood contracts to actually kill one or more of filler NPCs)

I don't know where you live, but in Northern and mountain regions people aren't most talkative ones when dealing with strangers (and Skyrim is both)
Yes, they are warm hearted when talking and meeting with friends, but with total strangers, random dialogues are extremely rare.

» Wed Jul 20, 2011 2:34 am

I see many reasons, but thats not the point, the point is a 1:1 virtual reality (more complex than the Holodeck), which will not happen.

We'll have holodeck by the mid 2300's.
And 1:1 virtual will be happening eventually. Technological growth is exponential.

Also, Nukes are underpowered, if that's what you're thinking of. Nuclear war'll get, 1-2 billion TOPS. Even if we do get a dark age, we've already have 2 500 year long ones already.

» Tue Jul 19, 2011 10:23 pm

Easy enough with today's technology.

DwarfFortress NPCs have:

1. A name (obviously), some parts of which they were given at birth, others they acquired due to their history
2. A history (born, married, fought in some war, killed a guy, lost an eye due to some other guy, had three kids, one of which was kidnapped by goblins, moved with the family to another town, created an artefact, stuff like this)
3. Relationships (spouses, parents, kids, friends, lovers, enemies)
4. Likes and dislikes, which influence what items they have, what their clothes are, and what they try to eat and drink if possible
5. A job, which can change with time
6. Tools to do the job, clothing/armour, equipment, other possessions
7. A home (unless homeless)
8. A main god they worship
9. A basic psychological state (basically somewhere between "happy" and "mad", with some insanities overriding those)
10. Permanent damages and disfigurations (lost limbs, scars, diseases) due to their history

... and they all are procedurally generated. Some ten thousand of them (though you can push that value with suitable world generation tweaks to be an order of magnitude higher).

DF runs on ACII graphics and still brings computers to their knees.

» Tue Jul 19, 2011 10:41 pm

I think that one of the interesting ideas in a future TES game is to have a 'contest' of sorts and have the community register and submit a basic civilian Character Sheet for an NPC, and the winners would A. Have their NPC in the game (Possibly even voice it?) and B. A free copy of the game or a unique reward.

» Wed Jul 20, 2011 2:54 pm

DF runs on ACII graphics and still brings computers to their knees.

But you don't need hundreds of people on screen at once, but for than 10 would be a hell of a lot better. most you need on screen is about 50 and that would make the game feel so much more alive.

» Wed Jul 20, 2011 5:07 am

Again. Engine no handle it! Also, first Gabriel in the Elder Scrolls forums, now Martyr?

I must tell you, I am quite flattered by the House's presence

» Wed Jul 20, 2011 6:59 am

Again. Engine no handle it! Also, first Gabriel in the Elder Scrolls forums, now Martyr?

I must tell you, I am quite flattered by the House's presence

Then explain why NPC addition mods which have next to no performance hit are some of the most popular mods in both Morrowind and Oblivion.

If there is nearly no performance hit why CAN'T we get more.

» Wed Jul 20, 2011 1:45 am

We'll have holodeck by the mid 2300's.
And 1:1 virtual will be happening eventually. Technological growth is exponential.

Also, Nukes are underpowered, if that's what you're thinking of. Nuclear war'll get, 1-2 billion TOPS. Even if we do get a dark age, we've already have 2 500 year long ones already.

Nope, we'll never create a fully 1:1 virtual reality any tie before we destroy ourselves.

» Wed Jul 20, 2011 2:41 pm

There is a limit to the amount of fully interactive NPCs you can have in a game right now, but if you simply added non-interactive too, you'd get the best of both worlds. Its more realistic too.

In case of Oblivion, that (engine-enforced) limit is at about 10 million per mod, with up to 250 mods active. As long as only a reasonable subset of them are visible on the screen and loaded in the nearby cells at the same time, this isn't even a problem for the game.

DF runs on ACII graphics and still brings computers to their knees.

Wrong on the first part (the default client is an OpenGL application; not like the graphic capabilities matter one bit when we're talking about generating the NPCs before you start the game :rolleyes: ), and yes on the second - mostly because of the fluid simulation though, and only in part because of the pathfinding on a dynamic three-dimensional map way more complex that Bethesda's ever where. You think IC environments in Oblivion with a few hundred path nodes are complex to navigate for the NPCs? A typical DF map has something on the order of a million path nodes between the surface and all the subsurface structures, and they are both dynamic (see: fluid simulation and the application thereof for defensive purposes) and changeable at whim by the player.

Complexity of the NPCs has really next to no impact on DF's performance.

» Wed Jul 20, 2011 4:12 am

I can live with random nameless kinda <_<

» Wed Jul 20, 2011 3:34 am

Then explain why NPC addition mods which have next to no performance hit are some of the most popular mods in both Morrowind and Oblivion.

If there is nearly no performance hit why CAN'T we get more.

Uh, MCA has a huge performance hit on Morrowind, and all it does is add a bunch of generic NPCs...

» Wed Jul 20, 2011 5:54 am

Uh, MCA has a huge performance hit on Morrowind, and all it does is add a bunch of generic NPCs...

Maybe i exaggerated the performance hit a bit.

But it does more than just place Generic NPC's, as they have script files to accompany them, for what they do during the day such as going to the pub, watching the river move by between 5pm-7pm before going home or whatever at about 8pm.

But at least they still had schedules, written dialogue (mostly just Rumors) and all that, the only thing missing was names for each of them.

» Wed Jul 20, 2011 2:46 am

If you want lots of random npcs expect alot of loading screens. If you played Dead Rising you know every little thing had a loading screen and it kinda slowed the game down and annoyed me, although they had loads of zombies and i'm guessing said suggestion isn't asking for a million random npcs. But nonetheless it will take alot of loading screens to load the environments, just my opinion no need for nerd rage.

» Wed Jul 20, 2011 1:07 am

If you want lots of random npcs expect alot of loading screens. If you played Dead Rising you know every little thing had a loading screen and it kinda slowed the game down and annoyed me, although they had loads of zombies and i'm guessing said suggestion isn't asking for a million random npcs. But nonetheless it will take alot of loading screens to load the environments, just my opinion no need for nerd rage.

Bethesda has stated that their New engine streamlines alot of things and helps cut back on load times, so keeping them around the same lengths as Oblivion load times while having 30-40 NPCs should be fine.